The thread that will never get a real answer

reply to post by Equidae


So your real question is why God doesn't do things according to your wishes?

Originally posted by 547000
reply to post by Equidae

 

So your real question is why God doesn't do things according to your wishes?

No, it's more along the lines of why is God such an apparently evil sadist. Even a cursory glance of the Old Testament supports that.

And I would hope that God would share my desire to heal amputees. But so for he hasn't so that leads to: he's not all powerful, he's all-powerful but has no regard/compassion/interest for any of his creation beyond them being his puppets, or that he isn't there.

The whole point is this world is unimportant, it's the world to come that's important. Our main goal is to get into heaven, not enjoy the pleasures of this world. God is no respecter of man. He gives signs to those who diligently seek Him.

Originally posted by 547000
The whole point is this world is unimportant, it's the world to come that's important. Our main goal is to get into heaven, not enjoy the pleasures of this world. God is no respecter of man. He gives signs to those who diligently seek Him.

So unimportant that your god watches you every second of every day, reads your thoughts, cares about your stuff and whether or not people steal it, who you sleep with, in what positions, how you look at the other sex, what food you eat, which fabrics you use in your clothing, what days you work on, how you treat your wife, how hard you can beat your slaves etc etc etc

If our main goal is to get into heaven, and the criteria for getting into heaven is based on how we act in this world, then wouldn't you say this world is very very important? (especially important if we also consider that if we fail to meet this criteria we are tortured in a lake of fire for eternity)

You've not thought this out very well.....

reply to post by Prezbo369


No, this world will burn and be destroyed. Unholy people will not go to heaven. Consider what John writes about loving the things of this world. The world itself is valueless but your soul is not.

reply to post by Prezbo369

and the criteria for getting into heaven is based on how we act in this world, then wouldn't you say this world is very very important?

But the criteria for who is an heir to heaven and who is not has nothing to do with how we act in this world. It has nothing to do with what we do or do not do, but what He has done already on our behalf.

Originally posted by 547000
The whole point is this world is unimportant, it's the world to come that's important. Our main goal is to get into heaven, not enjoy the pleasures of this world. God is no respecter of man. He gives signs to those who diligently seek Him.

Jesus pointed out that the current world is important, enough for him to come to save it.
The "world to come" has arrived, the Christian Era where we take in the spirit of Christ and become better people and make the world a better place to live in.

Originally posted by Equidae

Originally posted by 547000
reply to post by Equidae

 

So your real question is why God doesn't do things according to your wishes?

No, it's more along the lines of why is God such an apparently evil sadist. Even a cursory glance of the Old Testament supports that.

And I would hope that God would share my desire to heal amputees. But so for he hasn't so that leads to: he's not all powerful, he's all-powerful but has no regard/compassion/interest for any of his creation beyond them being his puppets, or that he isn't there.

edit on 13/12/11 by Equidae because: (no reason given)

Valid points.

CS Lewis wrote quite a bit about that subject-- it seems to be found, at least as an undercurrent, in many of his books-- including his fiction.

I'll add that believing in evil is rather easier to do than believing in God. It is not a single step from believing in evil and the need of the Cross; but it is a short walk.

"My Kingdom is not of this world" is a profound statement attributed to Christ Jesus. Indirectly, it leads to (and/or underscores) the idea that what we experience in this life, in this world, is not the focus of the actions of God for us.

During the three years from the Baptism of John to the Crucifixion, however, many of the acts attributed to him, and to his disciples, were physical healing-- suggesting that there is a connection between suffering and the spiritual.

The health and restoration of things and persons irrevocably lost to us are promised us in the life to come, and it is toward that life that Christians are directed to live. Not an easy assignment, as is obvious from the behavior of many.

There is a tendency among many to automatically attribute bad things with either evil or with God; and the corresponding tendency to credit God when good things happen. Someone wins a lottery and praises God, although God probably had nothing at all to do with that person winning the lottery-- His Kingdom is not of this world.

Someone looses a job, or their house burns, or a child dies-- and some will blame God, and some will blame the devil- but some things are what they are-- somethings are natural consequences, and some things are simply not just. But it is that injustice, in particular, which is to be the outrage of Christians-- fighting it in this life, but not expecting perfect justice until the next.

Perhaps the best of Christianity is hope-- and there is very little in Christian teachings to hope for much of anything in this life-- the Christian hope is almost entirely in the next: Blessed are the poor, blessed are those who mourn, blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness, those who hunger, and so on.

One of the worst misrepresentations of the faith perpetuated by some Christians is the tit-for-tat; "I do good and God rewards me and you do bad and God punishes you" view of this life. Such is always, in my experience, always used to justify oneself, and demonize all opponents.

My signature line is about that very problem.

One does not do the right thing because God is expected to reward anyone for it-- one does the right thing because God expects us to expect ourselves to do so. We are to live as if citizens of His Kingdom to come; and always painfully aware that this is not it. "Strangers in a strange land."

Countless non-Christians participate in that same struggle-- and the gift of the hope from the Church is the Gospel to all mankind involved in that struggle-- not the faith, it is the reasonableness of the hope that is the essence of the Gospel.

Another matter, related, but again by a few steps I am skipping here, is the notion that faith is of our own doing. It is not-- it is given by God -- and likely-- to those who need it. Not having faith may be rejecting a gift given-- but it is equally possible that it is not possessing a gift because the gift has not been given. If you don't believe and want to, blame God, not Christians, and not the Church. No Christian can give you the faith-- and your not having been given it, is not your fault, and so it is not to damn you. The hope is yours to take, but the faith is only yours if given.

That is Good News, isn't it?

reply to post by NOTurTypical

But the criteria for who is an heir to heaven and who is not has nothing to do with how we act in this world. It has nothing to do with what we do or do not do, but what He has done already on our behalf.

What Jesus did was make it possible for us to receive the Holy Spirit so we can act as better people than we would have done otherwise.
People who do not act accordingly will not have any part in a future heaven. Only those who act on faith as a guide to living are invited to stay, otherwise anyone who is not faithful to the end will die their normal death and will not be brought back to share in the better world, having shown themselves unfit for such an existence. Evildoers will be not allowed, this is very clearly presented as the underlying principle of Christianity and to deny it is to form your own anti-christ religion.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

But the criteria for who is an heir to heaven and who is not has nothing to do with how we act in this world. It has nothing to do with what we do or do not do, but what He has done already on our behalf.

What Jesus did was make it possible for us to receive the Holy Spirit so we can act as better people than we would have done otherwise.
People who do not act accordingly will not have any part in a future heaven. Only those who act on faith as a guide to living are invited to stay, otherwise anyone who is not faithful to the end will die their normal death and will not be brought back to share in the better world, having shown themselves unfit for such an existence. Evildoers will be not allowed, this is very clearly presented as the underlying principle of Christianity and to deny it is to form your own anti-christ religion.

Of course. But the Holy Spirit we are given to live by happens when we are born again. If there are evildoers I'd not think that person would be born again yet.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Of course. But the Holy Spirit we are given to live by happens when we are born again. If there are evildoers I'd not think that person would be born again yet.

Well, gee whiz, what if I have lived many thousands of lives on Earth, and have been "born again" each time. Does that count? I wonder about you guys sometimes.

Originally posted by autowrench
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Of course. But the Holy Spirit we are given to live by happens when we are born again. If there are evildoers I'd not think that person would be born again yet.

Well, gee whiz, what if I have lived many thousands of lives on Earth, and have been "born again" each time. Does that count? I wonder about you guys sometimes.

Spiritually reborn.

Reincarnation is a doctrine of demons.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Of course. But the Holy Spirit we are given to live by happens when we are born again. If there are evildoers I'd not think that person would be born again yet.

Maybe you are capable of original thought, and don't just keep to your cult playbook.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Reincarnation is a doctrine of demons.

It plainly never ceases to amaze me how little Christians know about their own religion, or their own Bible. By Demons, you say?
Truthfully, NOTurTypical, I gave you a lot more credit that you deserve on Biblical knowledge. I take it all back now.

Jesus himself taught Reincarnation! And Jesus was not the only one who taught and believed in reincarnation. He was a Jew, and most of the Jews of his day also believed in reincarnation, including the Pharisees and the Essenes according... to Josephus the historian. But obviously what really established reincarnation in the minds of the Jewish Christians was the teachings of Jesus.

John (chapter 3) is one of the only teachings of Jesus from the Bible that was not completely carved out by the correctors hired by the church fathers because it didn’t fit into their doctrines. Lots of the original parts of the teachings of John 3 have been removed. Most Christians see this biblical passage as a teaching about salvation, especially since only the acceptable passages are there. Their theologians, scholars and pastors have convinced them that “born-again” means salvation. The truth is though, we are born again and again and again…

Josephus, the Jewish historian who lived during most of the first century AD, records in his Jewish Wars (3, 8, 5) and in his Antiquities of the Jews (18, 1, 3) that reincarnation was taught widely in his day, while his contemporary in Alexandria, Philo Judaeus, in various of his writings, also refers to re-imbodiment in one or another form. Moreover, there are passages of the New Testament that can be understood only if seen against the background of pre-existence of souls as a generally held belief. For instance, Matthew (16:13-14) records that when Jesus asked his disciples "Whom do men say that I am?" they replied that some people said he was John the Baptist (who had been executed only a few years before the question was asked). Others thought he was Elijah, or Jeremiah, or another of the prophets.

King James Bible & Reincarnation

Reincarnation and the Bible

Reincarnation and Christianity

Originally posted by jmdewey60

Originally posted by 547000
The whole point is this world is unimportant, it's the world to come that's important. Our main goal is to get into heaven, not enjoy the pleasures of this world. God is no respecter of man. He gives signs to those who diligently seek Him.

Jesus pointed out that the current world is important, enough for him to come to save it.
The "world to come" has arrived, the Christian Era where we take in the spirit of Christ and become better people and make the world a better place to live in.

Our goal should be to get into the world to come. God will destroy the current world by fire when the time is right and create a new heaven and earth. By our actions we show whether we love God in words or truth. Friendship with the world in enmity with God. What person enamored by the world and the things it contains can be holy? Worldliness is a very hard obstacle to godliness.

reply to post by 547000

God will destroy the current world by fire when the time is right and create a new heaven and earth.

And where do you get this idea?
There is verse that sounds like this in the OT Prophets.
Isaiah 65:17

For look, I am ready to create new heavens and a new earth! The former ones will not be remembered; no one will think about them anymore.

I would say this already happened.
Prophecy fulfilled, by Jesus.
This is a hyperbolic expression having to do with how things would be better and that God would forgive past transgressions.

It didn't happen yet. The return of the Lord as written by the apostles to did not happen yet.

Originally posted by 547000
It didn't happen yet. The return of the Lord as written by the apostles to did not happen yet.

Where is the end (fiery destruction where a whole new one needs to be made) of the earth in, for example, The Book of Romans?

Originally posted by jmdewey60

Originally posted by 547000
It didn't happen yet. The return of the Lord as written by the apostles to did not happen yet.

Where is the end (fiery destruction where a whole new one needs to be made) of the earth in, for example, The Book of Romans?

Here is a link

Originally posted by autowrench
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Reincarnation is a doctrine of demons.

...

Josephus, the Jewish historian who lived during most of the first century AD, records in his Jewish Wars (3, 8, 5) and in his Antiquities of the Jews (18, 1, 3) that reincarnation was taught widely in his day, while his contemporary in Alexandria, Philo Judaeus, in various of his writings, also refers to re-imbodiment in one or another form. Moreover, there are passages of the New Testament that can be understood only if seen against the background of pre-existence of souls as a generally held belief. For instance, Matthew (16:13-14) records that when Jesus asked his disciples "Whom do men say that I am?" they replied that some people said he was John the Baptist (who had been executed only a few years before the question was asked). Others thought he was Elijah, or Jeremiah, or another of the prophets.

King James Bible & Reincarnation

Reincarnation and the Bible

Reincarnation and Christianity

I really get my dander up with the "anything other than I heard my pastor teach is from demons." Everyone would do well to take a giant step back and be more objective.

I believe in the spiritual nature of humans. For millennia humans have searching to explain the often vague perceptions of the soul-- the rare experiences common to all peoples-- and usually coming to very similar conclusions-- despite the religion of the various cultures.

What has been conceived by the mind of mankind about spiritual things is amazing-- and the there is much more in common when comparing ancient speculation than there are differences. In demonizing all speculation before and after Christ, or outside of a Christian culture, we cut our selves off from all human experience as if it cannot be truth.

Two examples:

A few years ago, I had a spiritual experience unlike any other I have had. A witnessed a small combat skirmish, sometimes as an observer and sometimes as one of the two participants attempting to flee a small enemy squad who was pursuing. There were quite a few details to observe (the lack of uniforms and the 19th Century weapons used), but also a sense that I knew what one of the pursued men knew: That the other man was his brother-- or some relative... that the war was already over and so the combat was useless... and that one was wounded and probably dieing.

If I had been from the Eastern mystical religions, I would have assumed I was remembering a past life of my own. Being a Christian, I had the sense that I was being shown an historical event involving someone else.

If I had not been Christian, either explanation would have shared an acknowledgement of the spiritual mysteries-- and the understanding that what I saw in my dream was not of the imagination, but an actual event. That is a profound commonality despite the differences.

Second...

A year or two ago, I was reading a novel by Phillip K. Dick and there was frequent mention of a character casting yarrow and then reading the I Ching for wisdom. That was the third time, at least, I had heard reference to the I Ching in a very short time.

I took my own advice, above, and took a step back and considered that there may be wisdom to be gained. I cut some twigs from bamboo in my yard, and learned how to use them to find which of the sixty-four sections to read. It was good wisdom-- descriptive of the specifics of my current despair and hopeful. It was good-- true wisdom; and fitting my situation-- even speaking of God, and of the need to continue waiting for the King/Priest. One would have thought it was written by a Christian-- except that it was written before Christianity.

My point is that revelation, for example, in the form of canonized spiritual texts, are not the only source of spiritual wisdom-- the Holy Spirit is not limited to only persons who own a Bible. The Holy Spirit did not begin His work with human beings at the Incarnation, and nor did God leave the rest of humanity without access to God.

----

Now, as to the Elijah and John the Baptist in terms of reincarnation.

Christ Jesus implied that John the Baptist was Elijah. Interesting that Elijah (like Enoch) did not die, but was assumed into Heaven (and include Moses' body in that category); yet John the Baptist was born of Elizabeth. Not your standard re-incarnation scenario.

So while many Jews and Gentile believers at the time of Christ believed in reincarnation, it was not equivocal to the Eastern mystery religions. Specific prophets, for example, were thought might be sent again in human form to the people.