My Friend Just Buried His Son That Committed Suicide

reply to post by getreadyalready


that really spoke to me... the battle will be tough... and i do not have faith... i say that i do but its easier said than done... great quote, great comment... Thank God for that input

reply to post by getreadyalready


Thanks for telling me that and the reply along with everyone elses, has managed to bring me some peace. After reading your experience, it has led to another question.

If I understood you, you are saying that there are souls out there that are waiting right now to be born and that those souls get to choose how their existence on Earth will be or consist of? This makes me wonder then, why do I not know this already since it is my soul and my soul is myself? Wouldn't I or all human beings have this knowledge of choosing our paths?

I don't know if you understand what I'm getting at, but I always thought that my soul was me, inside myself, but with the same thoughts, the same knowledge and the same beliefs. It seems that I really don't know the true meaning of a soul maybe?

reply to post by getreadyalready

We can go with the current, or we can fight it, but in the end, we will meet our fate one way or another.

I have always believed that you aren't going to die until your appointed time to die comes along. That's what is so difficult to understand about suicide. Was it Chris's appointed time, or did he by his actions, decide for himself when his appointed time would be? And if it wasn't his appointed time, then he went against God's will for him by killing himself. This sounds right to me but am I way off base, or could this possibly be true?

So fellow believers of ATS, what do you think about Chris and his chances? Can he go to Heaven, or is he doomed to Hell?

what an idiotic question... why don't you just let God decide.. and quit disrespecting the memory of Chris..?

how would you like if your son did this..and your friend went starting a thread like this on a site such as this..totally disrespectful..and shameful in my opinion.

It really doesn't matter what any of us think in the end.. if there is a GOD its God who decides..period.

and quite frankly.. there is the possibility that it wasn't a suicide..even if the investigators have claimed it was.

maybe chris wasn't such a "bad" guy after all, and your spreading rumors of drugs.. maybe the poor guy actually tried to something good.. and somebody bad didn't like it too much.. maybe even another cop.

reply to post by kennylee

This makes me wonder then, why do I not know this already since it is my soul and my soul is myself? Wouldn't I or all human beings have this knowledge of choosing our paths?

It's a great question, but isn't one that I asked.

Socrates didn't believe anything could be "learned" only "remembered." That is why his Socratic Method worked. He believed we all contain infinite knowledge within ourselves, but we don't know how to retrieve it. He believed, using pure logic and asking the correct questions, we could come to know universal truths without looking outside ourselves whatsoever. Maybe he was right, and maybe you do know the answers, you just haven't asked yourself the right questions?

In my opinion, it is the "experience" that is necessary, not the knowledge. If we knew the outcome or purpose ahead of time, it would taint the experience.

Take waterboarding for instance. Our special forces undergo it. Several celebrities and tough guys have done it, but they all knew in advance that they wouldn't be intentionally allowed to die. (Even though most still describe it as torture, even with the assurance they won't die!) They got the same treatment, but their experience was significantly less frightening than a prisoner of war getting that treatment. The prisoner of war fully believes they could die. To them, it is certainly torture, but to someone in training or doing it as an experiment, their experience is entirely different because of the pre-knowledge.

Socrates and Plato also talked about the difference between Experience and Knowledge. Knowledge is virtually useless, or even misleading without the experience to put it in context.

Allegory of the Cave



Just shooting from the hip on that one, though.

reply to post by kennylee

Was it Chris's appointed time, or did he by his actions, decide for himself when his appointed time would be? And if it wasn't his appointed time, then he went against God's will for him by killing himself. This sounds right to me but am I way off base, or could this possibly be true?

I don't believe so. I don't believe God has a need to be angry or vindictive. I believe God's plan all along is to see his children evolve and learn and reach their goals. Chris's spirit had his own goals, and they were in alignment with God's at one point. If he somehow short-circuited that plan, then I believe God will give him another chance, as many as it takes as long as he isn't turning away from God or intentionally doing evil. I certainly do not think this is a reason for God to lose hope in Chris. This could have been the plan all along, or it could be a speed bump along the way, but in my opinion, it is not the end of his journey in any way.

Originally posted by gabby2011

So fellow believers of ATS, what do you think about Chris and his chances? Can he go to Heaven, or is he doomed to Hell?

what an idiotic question... why don't you just let God decide.. and quit disrespecting the memory of Chris..?

how would you like if your son did this..and your friend went starting a thread like this on a site such as this..totally disrespectful..and shameful in my opinion.

It really doesn't matter what any of us think in the end.. if there is a GOD its God who decides..period.

and quite frankly.. there is the possibility that it wasn't a suicide..even if the investigators have claimed it was.

maybe chris wasn't such a "bad" guy after all, and your spreading rumors of drugs.. maybe the poor guy actually tried to something good.. and somebody bad didn't like it too much.. maybe even another cop.

What an idiotic reply...I started this thread because I have been battling with this subject for years now and Chris just brought the subject back to me. And I don't see any disrespect for Chris, questioning others on their thoughts of suicide. And if I was Chris's dad, I would still be on here trying to find answers. And as far as discussing this on "this kind of site'? This is the religion forum on BTS where people do try and help each other out with their questions. I really don't know why you are on ATS if you feel like you do about it. And IMO, you are being extremely judgmental about someone you know nothing about. You don't know me and you don't know Chris or his family.

And spreading rumors of drugs? No, that is not a rumor, and Chris was not a bad guy. Since it seems by your reply that you don't even believe in God, why do you insist on coming on a religion forum and trying to start trouble. Please keep your compassion out of my thread. I'm dealing with enough right now. Thank you....

reply to post by kennylee


Something just occurred to me.

The reason Christians believe suicide is unforgivable, is because it is a last act and there is no time for redemption. BUT, in many cases, such as hanging, or poison, or wrist cutting, there are many moments between the act and the actual death. Who is to say one couldn't begin the act, and then suddenly turn to God in their final few moments? It might be too late to save their life, but it is never too late to turn to God and ask for forgiveness.

This just came to me while watching the LSU/Ole Miss football game. Maybe it can help the father to realize there is that possibility that he did find forgiveness in those last moments.

reply to post by kennylee


My apologies... something rubbed me the wrong way about dangling the fate of the soul , of the son of a friend ,on a public forum such as this..knowing full well its an invite for all sorts of judgement.

and.. if there really exists a God who is the final judge and the most merciful one... wouldn't it end up being his call anyhow..?

It makes me sad that you invite us into the speculation of the fate of someones soul that we really know nothing about .

My condolences to his family , and I hope his soul finds a way to work through this and finds peace and love.

reply to post by getreadyalready

I believe God's plan all along is to see his children evolve and learn and reach their goals. Chris's spirit had his own goals, and they were in alignment with God's at one point. If he somehow short-circuited that plan, then I believe God will give him another chance

So you believe that God will give his soul another chance to come back to Earth and try again? You have really opened my eyes to a lot of things that I never have thought on before. If you are correct, and I'm not saying you are not, then this opens up a whole new dimension of thinking and believing.

I know you aren't the only one that believes this about the soul choosing before coming into existence as a human being, so is there a link anywhere that I could read even more about this? I am very intrigued by this philosophy.

Originally posted by gabby2011
reply to post by kennylee

 

My apologies... something rubbed me the wrong way about dangling the fate of the soul , of the son of a friend ,on a public forum such as this..knowing full well its an invite for all sorts of judgement.

and.. if there really exists a God who is the final judge and the most merciful one... wouldn't it end up being his call anyhow..?

It makes me sad that you invite us into the speculation of the fate of someones soul that we really know nothing about .

My condolences to his family , and I hope his soul finds a way to work through this and finds peace and love.

edit on 19-11-2011 by gabby2011 because: (no reason given)

Apologies accepted my friend. Back in my younger days I contemplated suicide a few times and almost succeeded the last time. That was almost 30 years ago. I had a really long discussion with a man that I knew was really close to God about my attempted suicide. That was when I heard for the first time that if you committed suicide, you were doomed to Hell, no second chances.

Ever since that day, I have always contemplated the question about if you could go to Heaven if you did commit suicide, or like the old man told me, you were doomed to Hell. I never wanted to believe that such a person would be doomed to Hell and a few days ago with Chris, it brought back up all of these questions. ATS's religion forum was the only place I could think of to possibly get some answers to that question that has been haunting me for all these years.

Thank you for the condolences. Chris was truly a good guy and his death was a tragedy. And now with the responses from the people of ATS, I firmly believe that Chris is in Heaven..

Of course he's in heaven.

My son is 24 and on drugs. We constantly worry that we are going to get the dreaded call, that he's been in an accident, he's overdosed accidently or even deliberately. I honestly don't know how much more me or my husband can take. I really don't know.

We only have two children - our son who lives a few miles away and our daughter who lives with Jesus. Almost two years ago the state police came to our door and told us she had been in an accident. She was only 18 years old and inexperienced driving in the snow. She hit black ice and rolled her jeep. A man and woman who were following her witnessed the wreck and called 911. She crawled out of the vehicle and told him she was cold. He started back towards his car to get her a blanket, when another car hit the same black ice, hit the man (breaking his knees) then proceeded to hit my daughters jeep and somehow she got knocked down and trapped underneath. Noone realized she was trapped and they were focussed on the man's injuries. She died of mechanical asphyxiation. They got a pulse back at the scene and every effort was made to save her but it was not meant to be. We turned life support off three days later. There is nothing in this world as devestating as burrying our children - no matter how they die.

I have a wonderful relationship with God, through Jesus. I was shown in a dream a few weeks before the accident that it was going to come to pass and I was shown afterwards in a fleeting vision where she is now. I was shown the New Jerusalem from a distance and made to understand she is inside and I will see her again. All I can do is give this testimony to anyone who will listen and be a reminder to those who believe that all things work together for those who love and trust God. I would also like to tell you of a recurrent string of words spoken to people who have died and came back with testimonies....."everything is just as it should be."

Compassionate Friends is a wonderful organization for parents, siblings and grandparents to work through the grieving process if that is even possible. There are chapters all over the place and even one on FB.

My thoughts and prayers go out to all who are affected by this young mans death.

reply to post by kennylee


I have a nephew that committed suicide in adult prison when he was 15 years old. The video of my Sister-in-law before congress tells the story at the end of this post. Job had similar feelings when he said, "So that my soul chooseth strangling, and death rather than my life. I loathe it; I would not live alway: let me alone; for my days are vanity" (Job 7:15-16).

Life is not without its moments of trials and tribulations. We are here to overcome. Unfortunately, some do not make the choice to rise above, but choose instead to sink below or give up. Is God just? Yes. Is God loving? Yes. Does he go after the one lost sheep? Yes. Who did Jesus come for?

Mark 2:17
On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

From my perspective, our journey here in the wilderness of life is for a purpose. We are not humans finding a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience. Destiny plays a large role in all of our lives. We see a suicide as a tragic end to a person's life, but as we can readily witness from my brother's wife, harsh events in our lives point the way for others to find fulfillment in life. Purpose is not always immediately clear. God does have a purpose for all events in our lives.

Romans 8:28

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

Can a suicide be for the glory of God's purpose for Chris and others? Yes. Is he in hell? That is between him and God. I say not a chance. Here is why.

Our purpose here in the material realm can be more than a purpose for us. Victor Frankl survived the death camps as a Jew and said this: “Everyone has his own specific vocation or mission in life to carry out; a concrete assignment which demands fulfillment. Therein he cannot be replaced, nor can his life be repeated. Thus, everyone’s task is as unique as his specific opportunity to implement it.”

Jesus said this in John 3: You must be born again. In other words, it is not a choice. We will be born again into the water. This is what the symbol of baptism stands for. Read it carefully. JOHN Our ultimate goal on this earth is to find faith in God. To find faith, we must love God and others. It is a continual birth and death sequence to allow God's consuming fire to work on our pride. Genesis 3 says that the flaming sword guards the tree of life. It says that our work to gain the fruit of knowledge will involve toil. The Bible is not just written to future generations. We are the future generations as well as the past. We have been here before. The veil over the temple is the veil over our minds and bodies to keep us from knowing our former estate and lives. So what is the ultimate goal?

We must find God in love and faith. We are born of the water and then the spirit. Only a union of love can create our next incarnation into the spirit realm. We are baptized into the water until we gain union. Why a union?

The sun and the moon come into union to create the earth. Male and female gain union to make new life. Sperm and egg gain union to create a baby in the womb. When the cord is cut, we enter the next womb of the earth. The final union is when we find love for God and others. The tree of life is then opened and we bear fruit above. If not, we are here below.

The Bible says that there will ultimately be a final judgment when the throne of God comes to us in judgment (after the next 1000 years of peace). This implies other judgments that come before. Hebrews 9 gives the answer. Our soul lives on, yet the person dies. We are judged and then wait. Where do we wait? When has salvation come to man? We are all waiting and salvation comes when Jesus returns. Which life brings salvation? All good questions.

Hebrews 9

27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Remember, we are all waiting on Jesus. Our purpose may not be what we hope for, but God's will will be done. For my brother's wife, she now works as a juvenile advocate and travels the country speaking and lobbying for the laws to be changed. What was the purpose of it all in the end? We can only connect the dots looking back.

Some Christians would define suicide as a type of murder, but I disagree. I would define murder as: The unlawful killing of one human by another. This is certainly the way the law defines it. I don't believe that we should have one dictionary for use when we speak to each other, and another dictionary when we attempt to interpret the Bible.

But, hey, I agree that suicide should be a crime punishable by death!!

Even though suicide is clearly not murder (a crime which is prohibited by the Bible); some Christians resort to the writings of Paul to show that the body is the temple of the holy spirit and therefore killing one's own body is a sin. These Christians rely on the following scripture:

“Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are” (1 Corinthians 3:16-17, KJV).

“Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's” (1 Corinthians 6:18-20, KJV).

These verses do not address suicide directly, so I suppose everyone is free to interpret them in any way they desire. I do find it interesting that Paul says that fornication is the only sin which is against one's own body, which would strongly suggest that suicide was not a sin. Besides, if suicide - which I would define as the act of hastening one's own death - is a sin, then it must also be true that any act which causes one's premature demise is equally sinful. Thus, those who smoke, drink excessively or fail to diet and exercise properly are condemned to the eternal fires of Hell.

For the record, my 24-year old son committed suicide on January 11 of 2008. I believe in God, but I am not a Christian. I have studied various versions of the Bible for over sixty years, and have found the book to be confusing and self-contradictory. Christians themselves cannot agree on what the Bible means! There are many different Christian sects, each with its own particular beliefs. Some of the theological differences are insignificant, however some are critical. For instance, some Christians believe that salvation comes through faith alone and good works are meaningless; however, other Christians believe the opposite is true, that we are judged by our works, and that faith without works is dead. Some Christians believe the doctrine of “once saved always saved” whereby those who accept Christ can thereafter continuously sin without jeopardizing their salvation; while other Christians believe the opposite, that those who sin after accepting Christ are worse than those who never learned the truth of Christ‘s salvation.

Further, there are those Christians who believe that Christ is merely the Son of God, the Father being greater than the Son; however, others believe Christ is a co-equal part of a divine Trinity; while still others believe He is God Himself. There are those Christians who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, while others argue that the book of Revelation precludes such an event. And in every case, these Christians with diametrically opposing views point to the same Bible to prove their conflicting positions. And in every case, there are indeed Biblical versus which, on their face, support each of the opposing positions. It is obvious that the God of the Bible is a very poor communicator and is incapable of getting His message across with any appreciable degree of clarity and specificity. Christians say that their God is not the author of confusion, yet by their constant bickering over the interpretation of the Bible they prove He is.

And, finally, those who equate suicide with murder are a bunch of ignorant, insensitive beings. And I say that without malice, but with heartfelt sincerity. I truly feel sorry for anyone who cannot comprehend the difference between the mindsets of those who kill others and those who take their own lives in quiet desperation. If there is a judging God, He will not condemn those who took their own lives; instead, he will heal their pain so that they can live and love and laugh again; or, as the Bible puts it, He will “Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit” (Psalm 51:12).

What kind of sadistic God would torment for all eternity those who faced so much torment in their lives that they could no longer bear it? How could anyone worship such a monster?

reply to post by kennylee


Hi. I am not a christian.
I personally believe that God deals with people on a personal basis.
God knows every persons trials and inner turmoil.

And for those who say suicide is equal to murder, where is it ever written in the bible? Remember its a book which lays down minute details of what you can and cannot do when it comes to things like food, clothing, animals etc.
If suicide was a grave sin, then I it should be mentioned as one.
"Do not kill yourselves"

I hope you find the way.

reply to post by kennylee


Unfortunately I cannot answer that question for you, as I was not there at the moment of his passing. Suicide is a difficult thing to deal with, and I am sorry to hear of your friend's loss.

However, I do know this much: God is God. Therefore anything is possible. It is God who determines when our lungs have taken their last breath, but there is nothing that says God cannot intervene for the sake of our eternal souls. God exists outside of the confines of time, so a moment could be much more than it seems.

reply to post by kennylee

The bible teaches about a resurrection to eternal life on earth, & that only a few (144,000) get to go to heaven. God knows how hard it is to live as a human in the society we created, & He does forgive. It does show ingratitude to take your own life, but we are all different, & have different levels of tolerance to the world. My nephew hung himself a couple of years ago. I am very close to his mother, & I know that if he could have seen what it did to her, he would never have done it. Suicide is a selfish act, but i think God will be sympathetic. This is not how God wanted his world to be, & it will become a beautiful garden as he promised, but for us to sometimes find this world too hard is not beyond his understanding. He loves us all, & he is hurt when we suffer needlessly, or because we loose hope. We ALL have hope, God promises everyone of that. When we die, we have paid our debt to God, ie, given him back the imperfect life we inherited from Adam. So it makes sense that the resurrection will include those who died without knowing him. & If your friends son didn't know God's view on the matter, God's righteous justice would demand another opportunity be given to set the balance. God is not arbitrary or cruel. Either way, your friend's son will not be in a place called Hell. He is nowhere suffering anything. That is what dead means.
Look to what Jesus taught if you want to comfort your friend.It is all in God's hands. & He is a God of peace & loving kindness.

reply to post by TheOldProfessor
Thus, those who smoke, drink excessively or fail to diet and exercise properly are condemned to the eternal fires of Hell.
These ARE sins against the body. they cause harm & injury & God doesn't want us to hurt ourselves. To do so would show our disregard for the life he gave us... Look to the most despised religion if you want to know who God is. They are hated because they Do know him, they are obedient as far as imperfect man can be, & they are genuine followers of Christ & the law God gave. They are hated like Jesus was hated, & are persecuted in the same way. I am not one of them. I smoke, & I drink, & have a joint on occasion. God doesn't approve of me doing those things, but he gave me free will to decide for myself. I CAN do those things, but are they what God wants me to do? They are not, because God is going to claim my life back some day, & I won't have been appreciative. But he is good & kind, & will only give me what I deserve. He will forgive suicide because not everyone knew to be grateful. He won't judge based on what we don't know..Peace Old professor.

Originally posted by honestyblaze
reply to post by TheOldProfessor

 

Thus, those who smoke, drink excessively or fail to diet and exercise properly are condemned to the eternal fires of Hell.
These ARE sins against the body. they cause harm & injury & God doesn't want us to hurt ourselves. To do so would show our disregard for the life he gave us... Look to the most despised religion if you want to know who God is. They are hated because they Do know him, they are obedient as far as imperfect man can be, & they are genuine followers of Christ & the law God gave. They are hated like Jesus was hated, & are persecuted in the same way. I am not one of them. I smoke, & I drink, & have a joint on occasion. God doesn't approve of me doing those things, but he gave me free will to decide for myself. I CAN do those things, but are they what God wants me to do? They are not, because God is going to claim my life back some day, & I won't have been appreciative. But he is good & kind, & will only give me what I deserve. He will forgive suicide because not everyone knew to be grateful. He won't judge based on what we don't know..Peace Old professor.

You said it all with these words: "He won't judge based on what we don't know." These words are indeed profound because they show that one's belief is not as important as one's commitment to that belief.

The major problems with ALL “organized” religions is that they require one to believe a certain way, whereas belief is not volitional. The idea that one can believe on command is illogical and contrary to human nature. Poet Shelly said it best:

"This is the pivot upon which all religions turn; they all assume that it is in our power to believe or not to believe, whereas the mind can only believe that which it thinks true. A human being can only be supposed accountable for those actions which are influenced by his will. But belief is utterly distinct from and unconnected with volition; it is the apprehension of the agreement or disagreement of the ideas that compose any proposition. Belief is a passion or involuntary operation of the mind, and, like other passions, its intensity is precisely proportionate to the degree of excitement. Volition is essential to merit or demerit. But the Christian religion attaches the highest possible degree of merit and demerit to that which is worthy of neither, and which is totally unconnected with the peculiar faculty of the mind whose presence is essential to their being" (Notes to Queen Mab).

I have a simple proposal for those who think they can will themselves to believe a certain way. Suppose that I offered you $10 million dollars if you could just believe that George Bush was the most brilliant and honest President in all of history. Could you do it? It is obvious that while some people might be able to claim the prize, most people would not. Most people could not believe, not even for $10 million dollars. I'm sure they would believe if they could, but they cannot.

Belief is an involuntary act; belief is our perspective created by our total life's experiences filtered through the prism of our individual preferences and prejudices. How we believe is formed by many things which are beyond our control. We are - all of us - a product of our heredity and our environment. We are not so much masters of our beliefs as we are its slaves. Those who think we have free will because we can elect to purchase either tomato soup or chicken noodle fail to realize that no one ever WILLED themselves to prefer one over the other. Tomato soup may taste better to you and chicken noodle better to me, but neither of us WILLED it to be so.

Therefore, if there is a judging God, we will not judged by what we believe but rather how we live our lives in accordance with that belief. I am convinced that is what a fair and just God would do. I cannot conceive how anyone could argue against this simple concept. (Whether there is a judging God bestowing rewards and inflicting punishments is an issue which is beyond the scope of the present response.)

reply to post by britelite1971


Thank you for the informative response. I cannot tell you how your information and the info of others in this thread have given me peace. You are entirely correct my friend when you stated that if we had a kid that killed themselves, would we still love them. That really made me realize that God would still love those who chose to go that way. Bless you....