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Some answers for the occupy haters...

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posted on Nov, 3 2011 @ 10:29 AM
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I wrote this a few days ago and decided not to post it because ATS is already overloaded with rants about the OWS protestors. Signing into ATS today I noticed a bunch of OWS hate threads on the list of top threads and I decided to hell with it, there's no reason not to post my rant, this crap needs to be balanced out. So now let me debate some popular arguments made against the protestors.

They will never get the change they seek because they don't know what they are protesting

Over the last few years I have spent countless hours reading content on ATS and websites like ATS. One thing that has always been obvious to me is that people are desperate for change. I have lost track of the rants posted to ATS concerning the horrible state of this world. The most common rants talk about how the Government and corporations are raping the masses and sucking them dry. Greed and money usually plays a major factor in these rants, and most of the time the blame is directed towards the elite, TPTB, the 1%, or what ever you might like to call them.

Next someone will say "Well why don't you do something about it. Sitting on the computer all day posting rants wont help.". To which the OP will reply "what can one person really do?". Then some hipster guy will come in and be like "If only everyone could see that together we are an unstoppable force! The power of the people can't be defeated when we rise up together for what we believe in!". Then the next thing said will probably be "People are too dumb and lazy to demand real change. They are all sheep, fast asleep in their own little worlds".

Now people are finally starting to make themselves heard, but people are extremely divided about it. This is why the protests must remain peaceful at at all costs. Just look what happened in England. The rioters may have had a legitimate reason to be mad, but the way they acted on that anger made it easy for the Government to criminalize them and turn everyone else against them. Then they convinced everyone it was alright to help the rebels by conducting hundreds of air-strikes on Libya. Think about how easily they can manipulate opinions.

What will they do when more and more people starting seeing through their lies. They are truly scared that these movements are the start of something, if enough people get behind it and the right actions are taken it could be effective. But you need to hit them where it hurts, and that doesn't mean using violence. Money is the only language they understand. When you speak their language there's a better chance they'll listen. Take for instance this little series of events:

Bank of America to charge $5 monthly debit card fee
Bank of America refuses to let customers close accounts
Bank of America begged me to not to close my accounts
Bank of America backs down on $5 debit card fee

Maybe the protestors don't know exactly what they want, but they aren't there for no reason. Maybe they don't have a leader, but they have camps all over the world. Maybe they don't have an exact goal, but they will cause things to change. Maybe some of the people protesting at Wall-street are idiots, or hippies, or druggies, but that doesn't represent all the protestors at OWS, or around the world. It is simply a gross generalization to pick one or two protestors and make a case against all protestors based on what they believe.

They are all hopeless drum beating hippies and they are interfering with my daily routine

It's actually quite ironic that you would label these people as hopeless. They might in fact be the only hope you have. According to you, they stink too much, or make too much noise, or get in your way. Some times things happen in this world which might cause you inconveniences. Why do you always champion democracy if you don't believe in the right to protest? Do you believe we should all just shut up and take what we get served like a good little slaves? I think you need to get your priorities straight.

Do you ignore everything that doesn't directly effect you? You think that if you go about your daily life as if nothing is wrong with the world, then everything will be alright. The smart guys will make it all better. You trust that if you just go along with their rules everything will be fine. Even if some of those absurd rules destroy the lives of other people, you will continuously turn a blind eye. Only when it happens to you will you express concern and ask for compassion and understanding.

They are filthy communists who want to end capitalism and steal my hard earned wealth

Granted many protestors may dislike capitalism because it creates vast inequality, but the real goal is to stop the Government, corporations, and banks from being able to exploit capitalism and rob the masses. It's not capitalism, it's more like corporatism or fascism. People were forced to bail out the banks and they returned the favor by increasing their fees and forcing people to pay mortgages they can't even prove exist! Who the hell is robbing who here? The masses have been played like a fiddle and they are sick of it.

You think some evil OWS goblins are trying to steal from your pot of gold, but in fact they are actually trying to stop banks and corporations from robbing the masses, which most likely includes you! They are trying to defend against the real thieves, yet you some how believe that they wish to steal food from your from your plate? Their anger is fueled by the rampant inequality, corruption and tyranny. These people represent fairness and freedom, they oppose greed and totalitarianism.

I doubt the protestors are going to destroy capitalism, and I doubt many of them want to, but capitalism isn't perfect. You think the capitalistic system is perfect because you've been brainwashed your entire life to believe it. The American dream is nothing but a pipe dream reserved for a ridiculously small percentage of people usually born into that position. Capitalism is based on profit and greed, nothing matters except the shareholders.

They are playing right into the hands of TPTB and will help them implement a NWO

Is it ironic that the main strength of conspiracy theorist is also his main weakness? The caged sheep can't escape because he is afraid of what his master might do. I'll admit there is a small chance 'they' could use these protests as a catalyst for implementing some sort of evil NWO plan, but it wont work if people are protesting tyranny of that exact nature, and they are expecting shills to start trouble. If you don't think protesting is a good option, just what DO you think they should do hmmmm?
edit on 3-11-2011 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 3 2011 @ 10:39 AM
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Very well spoken, I feel this way everyday. I try to remember that, whatever will be will be, until the next hateful post or thread comes along lol.




posted on Nov, 3 2011 @ 10:41 AM
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Well written... I visited Occupy Toronto on the 15th when it started for the 5:00 GA. Honestly, it was amazing, to participate in that environment, and to finally be standing somewhere in real life where other people were actually aware of the problems, instead of just on some online forum not evenknowing if I'm conversing with a real person, or a paid schill, or a bot, or whatever. I was always saying that the most important thing that could come from Occupy was awareness. This is, imo, the boost that the rest of the population needs to see through the blinders that the government placed over their eyes. It's to help wake up the rest of the "sheeple" as some people like to phrase on here.
edit on 3-11-2011 by SpreadLoveNotHate because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 3 2011 @ 10:41 AM
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i totally agree
very well said

maybe ats should dedicate an entire forum to the ows?



posted on Nov, 3 2011 @ 10:52 AM
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You articulated perfectly what many having been preaching to deaf ears for weeks. Everyone will admit there's a problem. If, by chance, you don't agree with OWS' methods, begin your own movement. Trying to break the momentum of Occupy isn't going to do anything except maintain the status quo. Be proactive, not counteractive.

S&F OP



~FugitiveSoul



posted on Nov, 3 2011 @ 10:52 AM
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Thanks for the support guys.

Damn I have never seen the flags rise so fast!
I'm glad I posted this after all.



posted on Nov, 3 2011 @ 11:05 AM
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Theres not much really to add, this article was very well written. My step-father likes to get a rise out of people and took note of my anti police-state mentality over the years. Im sure once I tell you that he is a huge police endorser (even watches "cops" any chance he gets) you will understand that me and him have the conversation that takes place in your post whenever I go visit my mother.



posted on Nov, 3 2011 @ 11:11 AM
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reply to post by ChaoticOrder
 





Maybe the protestors don't know exactly what they want, but they aren't there for no reason. Maybe they don't have a leader, but they have camps all over the world. Maybe they don't have an exact an goal, but they will cause things to change.


That pretty much sums it up!! They don’t know why they’re there, they have no plan but they want CHANGE! I heard a lot of people calling for change before the 2008 election and WE GOT IT. Many of those people are in the OWS crowd now, so I’m sure the outcome will be bad once again.




You think that if you go about your daily life as if nothing is wrong with the world, then everything will be alright. The smart guys will make it all better. You trust that if you just go along with their rules everything will be fine. Even if some of those absurd rules destroy the lives of other people, you will continuously turn a blind eye. Only when it happens to you will you express concern and ask for compassion and understanding.


It is a fallacy to say that people who don’t support OWS are doing nothing. Ever heard of the Tea Party? We’ve gotten countless people elected to government and they’ve towed the line during every vote. There are just not enough of them there….YET. Many of us are working to fix this but we’re doing it using the constitution and the political system rather than crapping on police cars and going after the wrong villains.




You think some evil OWS goblins are trying to steal from your pot of gold, but in fact they are actually trying to stop banks and corporations from robbing the masses, which most likely includes you! They are trying to defend against the real thieves, yet you somehow believe that they wish to steal food from your from your plate? Their anger is fueled by the rampant inequality, corruption and tyranny.


Who do you think pulls the strings on the banks? It’s not the banks,, it’s the government! Going after people on Wall Street isn’t going to fix anything. You need to go after the people allowing the corruption. The government has failed us – Replace the government and fix the problem. And by the way, ask anyone at OWS about wealth redistribution and they are all about it! They would gladly take money from people they perceive as having more. That's not justice - that's robbery.

All the OWS protesters that voted for Obama are partly to blame for this mess. They should have sent people to Washington who wanted to reduce government spending rather than socialists (like Obama) who would just go deeper in bed with the crooks. You don’t send an arsonist to put out a fire! Look at how bad our country has become in just the last 3 years!! When people get angry and start attacking the wrong problems with the wrong solutions you get bad results. They wanted change and voted in Obama – FAIL. Now, because that didn’t work, they want to tear down the entire system – ANOTHER FAIL.



posted on Nov, 3 2011 @ 11:12 AM
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reply to post by ChaoticOrder
 


Good thread.

But until OWS starts to acknowledge that Government has helped to create this and start camping out in front of Congress and the State Reps offices, they have lost my support.

They are fighting one problem, while ignoring the other that helped create the mess were in.

Just because I do not support them does not mean I am a hater either. I do support their right to protest. I just feel that they are being misguided and even corrupted by a heavy union presence. Kind of like the Tea Party and the Koch Bros cash influx.

Now we have the MSM throwing the anarchist card in the masses face and that does not play out well either.

I realize that OWS Oakland did stop some vandalism, but the crowd that were there in force and could have stopped all of it. A few agitators are ruining for the rest, because the rest do nothing to stop them.



posted on Nov, 3 2011 @ 11:16 AM
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reply to post by TDawgRex
 




They are fighting one problem, while ignoring the other that helped create the mess were in.
So which is it? Are they trying to tackle too many problems, resulting in no clear goal. Or are they not focusing on enough different problems? You can't have it both ways. The most important problems come first. Which isn't the Government. The Government is also some what of a puppet in their game of debt. Governments are a useful tool for society, just not when public policy is decided by banks and corporations.
edit on 3-11-2011 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 3 2011 @ 11:21 AM
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reply to post by seabag
 




Who do you think pulls the strings on the banks? It’s not the banks,, it’s the government!
That one statement shows you have no credibility what so ever. It may look that way on the surface, but the opposite is clearly closer to the truth.

That reminds me of a little petition people might want to take note of, and take part in (the number of signatures is currently about half way there):


It's unbelievable. The G20 -- the most powerful summit of world governments -- meets tomorrow to discuss the global economic crisis, and who is sponsoring the meeting? Banks and corporations!

No wonder the site of the meeting -- the French city of Cannes -- is completely locked down to any ordinary citizens, while banks and large corporate CEOs have all access passes to tell our governments what to do.

Corporations and banks have captured our governments, winning vast bailouts after helping to create the crisis. Now they are buying their way into the very meeting that could decide the world's financial future. Together we can persuade summit President Nicolas Sarkozy to cancel the sponsorship -- let's build a massive public outcry that causes a media firestorm and forces Sarkozy to kick out the corporate sponsors and clean up the G20. Sign the petition and forward widely:

G20 - People in, corporate sponsors out

edit on 3-11-2011 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 3 2011 @ 11:23 AM
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Thanks for posting what a lot of us feel.

A good example of an excellent protest is posted on ATS. It is about a guy handing out fliers in front of a couple of national banks. They tried to threaten him and intimidate him to make him stop and eventually called the cops. The cops arrived took both sides of the story and told the bank to stop calling them because he is within his right to hand out fliers on public property (the sidewalk).

The guy is well dressed and smiles to everyone he hands out the fliers to. He states that the bank is ripping them off and they should move their money to credit unions or local banks in order to keep the money working for the people instead of the crooked banksters.

You are right about the shills working their tails off to try and sway opinion here and elsewhere. They have a direct link to the banks and war machine. their are either paid by them directly or by their position. If the status quo is not maintained they are left with nothing. I almost feel sorry for them since they have no real world skills and could not support themselves without their current employer. I said ALMOST because there is not one single thought of sympathy for their greedy heartless existence anymore.

I have seen this country go straight to hell since GW Bush was elected. Things have not changed since. He is boisterous and unapologetic about his crooked despicable business ethics. He helped the banks and corporations disregard any semblance of ethics. That has crossed over into media and almost every large organization who now think "If they can do it why can't we?" There is no accountability, respect, ethics, compassion, or truth left at the top. The only thing left is unadulterated GREED!

So if some protesters steal water from your faucet or step on your lawn or smoke a joint on the sidewalk just remember that THEY are DOING SOMETHING. They are not sheep. They are not spineless cowards like the shills who post anti-ows garbage all over the net. They are losing their stranglehold on the average person who has learned from liars and cheats over the last 15 years or so that have done nothing but destroy the fabric that holds our country together.

OWS has turned into just the OCCUPY movement. It will continue to gain strength and the more it is demonized the more people will join. I support the peaceful protest like the one I described above and would hope everyone did as well, but that is never going to be the case. Be realistic and understand that when a lot of people show up to any event there will always be some type of violence. If the Occupiers can handle their own people then things will remain orderly overall.



posted on Nov, 3 2011 @ 11:24 AM
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reply to post by ChaoticOrder
 


I believe that the biggest divide when it comes to those who support or don't support OWS comes down to this very argument.

Some say that the government who make the laws that allow the Corporations to do what they do should be held accountable.

Others say the Corporations buy off government and they should be held accountable.

I believe that they are both right, and should adjust fire on both fronts.

Until both are held accountable, it will not gain traction.



posted on Nov, 3 2011 @ 11:26 AM
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Originally posted by TDawgRex
reply to post by ChaoticOrder
 


Good thread.

But until OWS starts to acknowledge that Government has helped to create this and start camping out in front of Congress and the State Reps offices, they have lost my support.

They are fighting one problem, while ignoring the other that helped create the mess were in.

Just because I do not support them does not mean I am a hater either. I do support their right to protest. I just feel that they are being misguided and even corrupted by a heavy union presence. Kind of like the Tea Party and the Koch Bros cash influx.

Now we have the MSM throwing the anarchist card in the masses face and that does not play out well either.

I realize that OWS Oakland did stop some vandalism, but the crowd that were there in force and could have stopped all of it. A few agitators are ruining for the rest, because the rest do nothing to stop them.


So why not join the movement and keep them in line? Maybe it is just easier to sit and bitch about it?



posted on Nov, 3 2011 @ 11:28 AM
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Originally posted by TDawgRex
reply to post by ChaoticOrder
 


I believe that the biggest divide when it comes to those who support or don't support OWS comes down to this very argument.

Some say that the government who make the laws that allow the Corporations to do what they do should be held accountable.

Others say the Corporations buy off government and they should be held accountable.

I believe that they are both right, and should adjust fire on both fronts.

Until both are held accountable, it will not gain traction.


Both say they are both corrupt and should be held accountable so do we have your permission to move forward now?



posted on Nov, 3 2011 @ 11:29 AM
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Please please don't forget this is a worldwide problem not a US one. The fact that it is a worldwide problem strengthens the arguments for change.



posted on Nov, 3 2011 @ 11:32 AM
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Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
reply to post by seabag
 




Who do you think pulls the strings on the banks? It’s not the banks,, it’s the government!
That one statement shows you have no credibility what so ever. It may look that way on the surface, but the opposite is clearly closer to the truth.


G20 - People in, corporate sponsors out

edit on 3-11-2011 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)


This is like “which came first - the Chicken or the Egg?” Look, if the government would do its job and protect the people rather than being bought and paid for by corporations then there wouldn’t be a problem. You mean to tell me that if the entire government, with the will of the people behind them, decided to put a stop to the corruption it wouldn’t be possible? I not only think it’s possible, I think it could happen very quickly. We need to get the bankers and corporate CEOs away from government. There’s a much better chance of that happening than a bunch of OWS chaos resulting in any positive change.



posted on Nov, 3 2011 @ 11:32 AM
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reply to post by ChaoticOrder
 



Maybe they don't have an exact goal


In your own words...until this gets resolved...I can't support them.


I won't support a movement that I don't know their goal...what if that goal becomes something that I am 100% against?

IMO...only the ignorant follow a mob that don't have a goal...and then when the outcome is something horrible...they will claim "but I didn't know...I was trying to do good". That's BS...if you participate in something you don't fully understand, you are still responsible for any and all outcomes of that movement.


They are filthy communists who want to end capitalism and steal my hard earned wealth

Granted many protestors may dislike capitalism because it creates vast inequality, but the real goal is to stop the Government, corporations, and banks from being able to exploit capitalism and rob the masses.


You JUST SAID that there is no exact goal...and now you are saying there is.

Even you, who are supporting them, are confused. Why should I support a movement where even their supporters are confused?

By talking to some of the most supportive OWS people here on ATS...it is clear they are some of the must uninformed individuals on this site...and I am ashamed because in general they closely match my political ideology.

I just pray OWS is officially hijacked by intelligent people soon...it's already happening...I just hope it moves more quickly.
edit on 3-11-2011 by OutKast Searcher because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 3 2011 @ 11:34 AM
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Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by ChaoticOrder
 





Maybe the protestors don't know exactly what they want, but they aren't there for no reason. Maybe they don't have a leader, but they have camps all over the world. Maybe they don't have an exact an goal, but they will cause things to change.


That pretty much sums it up!! They don’t know why they’re there, they have no plan but they want CHANGE! I heard a lot of people calling for change before the 2008 election and WE GOT IT. Many of those people are in the OWS crowd now, so I’m sure the outcome will be bad once again.




You think that if you go about your daily life as if nothing is wrong with the world, then everything will be alright. The smart guys will make it all better. You trust that if you just go along with their rules everything will be fine. Even if some of those absurd rules destroy the lives of other people, you will continuously turn a blind eye. Only when it happens to you will you express concern and ask for compassion and understanding.


It is a fallacy to say that people who don’t support OWS are doing nothing. Ever heard of the Tea Party? We’ve gotten countless people elected to government and they’ve towed the line during every vote. There are just not enough of them there….YET. Many of us are working to fix this but we’re doing it using the constitution and the political system rather than crapping on police cars and going after the wrong villains.




You think some evil OWS goblins are trying to steal from your pot of gold, but in fact they are actually trying to stop banks and corporations from robbing the masses, which most likely includes you! They are trying to defend against the real thieves, yet you somehow believe that they wish to steal food from your from your plate? Their anger is fueled by the rampant inequality, corruption and tyranny.


Who do you think pulls the strings on the banks? It’s not the banks,, it’s the government! Going after people on Wall Street isn’t going to fix anything. You need to go after the people allowing the corruption. The government has failed us – Replace the government and fix the problem. And by the way, ask anyone at OWS about wealth redistribution and they are all about it! They would gladly take money from people they perceive as having more. That's not justice - that's robbery.

All the OWS protesters that voted for Obama are partly to blame for this mess. They should have sent people to Washington who wanted to reduce government spending rather than socialists (like Obama) who would just go deeper in bed with the crooks. You don’t send an arsonist to put out a fire! Look at how bad our country has become in just the last 3 years!! When people get angry and start attacking the wrong problems with the wrong solutions you get bad results. They wanted change and voted in Obama – FAIL. Now, because that didn’t work, they want to tear down the entire system – ANOTHER FAIL.


Get your message straight. You said tea partiers got some people elected who are changing things for the better and you are doing things using the constitution and the political system and then at the end you say we should be tearing down the real perpetrators mainly the government? Try and stick to one coherent thought and pursue that one instead of ridiculing everyone who voted for change.

I am voting for Ron Paul. I am sure you have plenty to say about that, but try and stay on track when you do.



posted on Nov, 3 2011 @ 11:47 AM
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Originally posted by onecraftydude

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by ChaoticOrder
 





Maybe the protestors don't know exactly what they want, but they aren't there for no reason. Maybe they don't have a leader, but they have camps all over the world. Maybe they don't have an exact an goal, but they will cause things to change.


That pretty much sums it up!! They don’t know why they’re there, they have no plan but they want CHANGE! I heard a lot of people calling for change before the 2008 election and WE GOT IT. Many of those people are in the OWS crowd now, so I’m sure the outcome will be bad once again.




You think that if you go about your daily life as if nothing is wrong with the world, then everything will be alright. The smart guys will make it all better. You trust that if you just go along with their rules everything will be fine. Even if some of those absurd rules destroy the lives of other people, you will continuously turn a blind eye. Only when it happens to you will you express concern and ask for compassion and understanding.


It is a fallacy to say that people who don’t support OWS are doing nothing. Ever heard of the Tea Party? We’ve gotten countless people elected to government and they’ve towed the line during every vote. There are just not enough of them there….YET. Many of us are working to fix this but we’re doing it using the constitution and the political system rather than crapping on police cars and going after the wrong villains.




You think some evil OWS goblins are trying to steal from your pot of gold, but in fact they are actually trying to stop banks and corporations from robbing the masses, which most likely includes you! They are trying to defend against the real thieves, yet you somehow believe that they wish to steal food from your from your plate? Their anger is fueled by the rampant inequality, corruption and tyranny.


Who do you think pulls the strings on the banks? It’s not the banks,, it’s the government! Going after people on Wall Street isn’t going to fix anything. You need to go after the people allowing the corruption. The government has failed us – Replace the government and fix the problem. And by the way, ask anyone at OWS about wealth redistribution and they are all about it! They would gladly take money from people they perceive as having more. That's not justice - that's robbery.

All the OWS protesters that voted for Obama are partly to blame for this mess. They should have sent people to Washington who wanted to reduce government spending rather than socialists (like Obama) who would just go deeper in bed with the crooks. You don’t send an arsonist to put out a fire! Look at how bad our country has become in just the last 3 years!! When people get angry and start attacking the wrong problems with the wrong solutions you get bad results. They wanted change and voted in Obama – FAIL. Now, because that didn’t work, they want to tear down the entire system – ANOTHER FAIL.


Get your message straight. You said tea partiers got some people elected who are changing things for the better and you are doing things using the constitution and the political system and then at the end you say we should be tearing down the real perpetrators mainly the government? Try and stick to one coherent thought and pursue that one instead of ridiculing everyone who voted for change.

I am voting for Ron Paul. I am sure you have plenty to say about that, but try and stay on track when you do.


My story is straight, bud! Try to stay focused and follow me!

The Tea Party is replacing corrupt representatives in government with honest representatives in government (as we saw in the 2010 midterm). However, when the honest Tea Party representatives only comprise 30% of the House of Representatives and even less in the senate it’s hard to be anything but an obstructionist at this point. They have done a good job blocking legislation, and its a good start, but until they are a majority they can't forward their complete agenda. I advocate replacing the remaining 70% who are corrupt and have the wrong ideas. That's what I'm focused on.




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