You say you got a real solution? Well, you know, we'd all love to see the plan. (OWS)

As long as your plan doesn't threaten the Constitution.

If your solutions jeopardize the building blocks of this country, then your solutions are not solutions at all, they are treason.

What am I talking about? Well as much as I hear "No leader, no agenda" being thrown around as if it changes the paper trail, I also hear proposals that would fundamentally change the fabric of our country in ways that would be incomprehensible to our founding fathers. I know not all of you are asking for this type of thing, so wipe the froth from your mouth before responding if you don't.

One example I've seen here on ATS is a proposed (global) cap on wealth. The proposal involves people being limited to earning a billion dollars, after that, they can't keep anymore. It gets put back into the system for "the good of the people."

Now, most of OWS would see this and go "Yeah! What's wrong with that? Nobody needs anymore than that anyways!"

What this really means is that you are limiting the amount of property (money) that someone can have, property which they earned. You have no right to someone else's property, and if you try to support such ridiculous notions, you set a very dangerous precedent for everyone, including yourself. Meaning that someday, someone may be able to come along and take what is yours, whether you agree or not.

I am here to say that these types of proposals will not stand, and you will not squander what our founding fathers gave us.

If you have problems with rich people, who broke the law and hurt people on the way to getting, or to get this money, go after them. But keep your damned hands off of the property of law abiding citizens, even if you think you can put it to a better use. I'd rather go after the source of the problem, the reason these people have been able to cheat their way to untold sums of money, as well.

If you have ideas and proposals, that don't run against the grain of the Constitution, by all means, carry on.

I'm sure other members have much better thoughts to add, so I'll defer to them and end this little rant.

Actually, I have worse thoughts to add. Two, actually. The first is who is defending the Constitution? I'm not claiming that everyone is involved in one grand conspiracy, but, rather, which body or group is solidly committed to constitutional law, property rights, and rule by law? Nothing comes to mind. Not the President, or the Department of Justice. Maybe the Supreme Court, but we have managed to ignore federal district court rulings (Obamacare, gulf drilling). I don't know who the good guys are.

The second bad thought is who is attacking the Constitution? OWS is the current poster child. They are hoping for violence and a number of speakers and MSM types have called for it. The Muslims at home are suing for the state to accomodate their religious beliefs in ways that no other religion is allowed to.

Even here on ATS, the level of anger and inability to discuss issues only emphasizes the desire to overthrow our current Constitutional sytem. People on ATS are being advised to prepare for when TSHTF, but they can't see that they're the ones throwing it.

Originally posted by GringoViejo
You have no right to someone else's property, and if you try to support such ridiculous notions, you set a very dangerous precedent for everyone, including yourself.

Interesting Point. Considering all of humanity is trapped upon this literal island, a globe of rock speeding through the cosmos. That the resources of this island are limited, that we all are here, together, to survive and advance our species. Yet it is okay to allow certain individuals to hoard resources to the detriment of others, and humanity as a whole, ultimately costing lives, all for the sake of a supposedly sacred notion of personal property?

Until we overcome greed, and institute a system to eliminate scarcity while nurturing the essence of human intellect, there will be no solutions.

Fine, no cap on wealth but a sliding scale of taxes where the rich pay far more than the poor.

So by the time you are making 100 million a year, your taxes are up to like 80%.

Thats within the constitution right? Who needs more than 20 million a year anyways? What kind of selfish jerk would cry because they aren't making enough wealth to live on for centuries?

At 1 billion a year your taxes are up to 90%. I mean that still leaves 100 MILLION dollars a year! Thats insane wealth, thats buying yachts and having whatever you want.

At 10 billion a year your taxes are at 95% Thats FIVE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR. I don't know of anyone who is making this kind of wealth anyways, but still thats insane wealth if it were to ever happen.

At 100 Billion a year you pay 99% taxes and anything above 100 billion stays at 99%. Thats still an income of 1 Billion a year, so much wealth you could live for 10,000 years or more on it. You could build a small nation. You could literally have your own little standing army.

These taxes are also not all "government owned" taxes either. If these earnings come from any affiliation with any corporation they are sent back into the corporation not to make improvements on the business itself, but to do things like improve benefits, give raises, and so on. In fact the money goes first to the bottom. No "trickle down" rather think of it as improving the foundations of ones business. People at the bottom get bonuses, or raises, better health care, and so on, and the wealth trickles up back towards those who already have wealth.

If your earnings come from private investments then the same portion of it goes directly into things like supporting social security, medicare, and other public services.

Granted I don't know how such a sliding scale would really work in terms of exact amounts, but you get the idea.

Make no mistake OWS is all about Wealth redistribution and i am waiting for anyone to point out to me where it says rob from the rich and give to the in the constitution.

OWS is that liberal tale of rob from the rich and give to the poor and making everyone live in the "hood" there is not one original thought among that crowd it is recycled liberal ideology from decades of failed social thinking and policies.

reply to post by GringoViejo

If you have problems with rich people, who broke the law and hurt people on the way to getting, or to get this money, go after them.

That's exactly what they are trying to do. they sat back and let the "free market" work. It failed. They sat back and let the banks take control. It failed. They waiting eagerly for the government to take action. They didn't.

some people calling themselves part of the OWS movement are demanding the crazy things like what you mentioned. The American Nazi party is also involved, does that make OWS a nazi movement? Is OWS supporting the notion that jews are evil and Aryans are the master race? Of course not. The communist elements are just that elements, as are the socialists.

You can stick your fingers in your ears and ignore it for as long as you see fit, it doesn't change the fact that they are trying to fix the system.

Step 1 punish those criminals
Step 2 actually ENFORCE the laws and regulations while actually holding people ACCOUNTABLE
Step 3 End the Fed.

There are always going to be fringe, vocal, elements trying to sway opinion this way or that way. Most of the world refuses to let the minority speak for the majority.

I'm about sick of this OWS crap. Every thread is the same.

They want to end capitalism, they want to steal from the rich.

It has never been, nor it will it be, about "stealing" from the rich, or a complete forgiveness of debt, or a "free ride". you can moan and complain saying that is what they want, but it isn't, and if you don't know at this point, you refuse of accept information that goes contrary to the belief system you currently hold. You are living in a filter bubble.

The solution is plain as day. End the corruption, punish the criminals, and stop allowing them to play the tax code like a harp while everyone else, that horrible 99%, has to pick up the slack. Really most of the problems wouldn't exist if that were the case.

The end game is ending the Federal Reserve. but that requires something to replace it, not just ideas. That will take time. But what can be fixed now, overnight, is the corporate fraud and tax evasion.

As I said in various threads, think of this scenario.

You're a CEO and you've defrauded your company out of millions of dollars, probably the retirement fund.
By some miracle, you get caught. At worst, a few months in jail, but most likely you'll pay a fine and be done with it.

Now lets try this scenario.

you're a worker and a home owner. you decided to (or accidentally) cheat on your taxes. You get caught. Can you buy your way out? No, you are going to prison my friend.

That's the core issue, that's the problem at the core that is rotting the entire thing.

the free market does work, but not when run from the top as a ponzi scheme.

Originally posted by charles1952
Actually, I have worse thoughts to add. Two, actually. The first is who is defending the Constitution? I'm not claiming that everyone is involved in one grand conspiracy, but, rather, which body or group is solidly committed to constitutional law, property rights, and rule by law? Nothing comes to mind. Not the President, or the Department of Justice. Maybe the Supreme Court, but we have managed to ignore federal district court rulings (Obamacare, gulf drilling). I don't know who the good guys are.

The second bad thought is who is attacking the Constitution? OWS is the current poster child. They are hoping for violence and a number of speakers and MSM types have called for it. The Muslims at home are suing for the state to accomodate their religious beliefs in ways that no other religion is allowed to.

Even here on ATS, the level of anger and inability to discuss issues only emphasizes the desire to overthrow our current Constitutional sytem. People on ATS are being advised to prepare for when TSHTF, but they can't see that they're the ones throwing it.

Thanks for the response.

First off, that's a good question. I have strong feelings that there are a lot of like minded people, willing and able to defend our Constitution. Some of us have taken an oath, but I'm not so blind as to think that means something to every person who took are takes it. If nothing else, if it gets more radical, its a convenient excuse for the military to get involved, whether the purpose of involvement is the defense of the constitution or not. What I'm saying is its best not to alienate the people with changes that would undermine our country, the politicians, lobbyists, etc. don't need any help using the Constitution as bath tissue.

Secondly, again I think that the politicians, lobbyists, etc. need any help trying to circumvent the document. Another reason I think this movement is misguided, why not DC? Go to the source of the problem. But, oh well, they're perfectly within their rights to protest, I can't decide where.

But but but, OP , they are already taking my stuff, and I have no say. They are taking it and giving it to the already rich bankers because they made a mistake. The bankers aren't hurting, infact they have given themselves nice big bonuses. Yet here I am, indebted for the rest of my days for something I didn't take part in, or have a choice about.

Originally posted by GringoViejo

What this really means is that you are limiting the amount of property (money) that someone can have, property which they earned.

But earned how? Earned at the expense of whom? Earned because of child labor overseas? Earned because of underpaid labor in America? Earned at the expense of peoples savings, retirements, and so on? Earned because their lowest paid workers have no benefits? Earned because they are destroying the land?

Can you think of an honest, legitimate way to earn massive wealth? I'm talking about a company that does everything right from the top to the bottom. Everyone who works for the company or makes something for the company is paid fairly, has benefits, is not a child slave somewhere, is not in India. Where everyone is happy, everyone is well off. Show me one, please. Show me how its done because I can't figure it out. It seems that wherever there is massive wealth, someone somewhere is being exploited, someone somewhere is suffering because of it. Also this company can't be destroying natural resources without mercy. They can't be torturing animals to make food. They can't be ruining the land to get coal. They have to be good stewards of both the land and their people.

Just one.

Wonderful thread!

Highlights quite clearly that it is not the original system that is corrupt but instead, certain individuals within the political/financial system voraciously practicing and proselytizing their corruption like a virus for the sake of serving their own greedy self-interests that are the destroying it from within.

The OWS have a right to protest - I just hope they remember that if they "go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao -

you ain't gonna make it with anyone anyhow"!

Look for ways to fix the system - no need to replace it.

Originally posted by GringoViejo
As long as your plan doesn't threaten the Constitution.

If your solutions jeopardize the building blocks of this country, then your solutions are not solutions at all, they are treason.

What am I talking about? Well as much as I hear "No leader, no agenda" being thrown around as if it changes the paper trail, I also hear proposals that would fundamentally change the fabric of our country in ways that would be incomprehensible to our founding fathers. I know not all of you are asking for this type of thing, so wipe the froth from your mouth before responding if you don't.

One example I've seen here on ATS is a proposed (global) cap on wealth. The proposal involves people being limited to earning a billion dollars, after that, they can't keep anymore. It gets put back into the system for "the good of the people."

Now, most of OWS would see this and go "Yeah! What's wrong with that? Nobody needs anymore than that anyways!"

What this really means is that you are limiting the amount of property (money) that someone can have, property which they earned. You have no right to someone else's property, and if you try to support such ridiculous notions, you set a very dangerous precedent for everyone, including yourself. Meaning that someday, someone may be able to come along and take what is yours, whether you agree or not.

I am here to say that these types of proposals will not stand, and you will not squander what our founding fathers gave us.

If you have problems with rich people, who broke the law and hurt people on the way to getting, or to get this money, go after them. But keep your damned hands off of the property of law abiding citizens, even if you think you can put it to a better use. I'd rather go after the source of the problem, the reason these people have been able to cheat their way to untold sums of money, as well.

If you have ideas and proposals, that don't run against the grain of the Constitution, by all means, carry on.

I'm sure other members have much better thoughts to add, so I'll defer to them and end this little rant.

edit on 1-11-2011 by GringoViejo because: (no reason given)

Well put sir. Looking forward to a great day when people figure out their ideals.

Constitutional Solutions

Lottocracy for Congress - This is direct democracy run much like jury duty, except for Congress. This is the only way to truly have a government of, by and for the people.

A right to free food and shelter - We got tons of food, millions of empty homes, apartments, hotels, hostels, dormitories, etc. We can provide these basic life necesities for everyone. It would make unemployment a non issue and create an entirely optional market economy. Then, IF YOU CHOOSE, you can work some job for more money. Food and shelter are our most primary human needs, it should be our primary human right.

Boom.

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
reply to post by GringoViejo

 

That's exactly what they are trying to do. they sat back and let the "free market" work. It failed. They sat back and let the banks take control. It failed. They waiting eagerly for the government to take action. They didn't.

The free market isn't the problem, but by no means is it a perfect market. Why did they sit back though? Why wait to get involved? Why wait for government to act? Demand it! If they had been involved earlier they would realize that they are attacking a symptom of the problem, not the problem.

some people calling themselves part of the OWS movement are demanding the crazy things like what you mentioned. The American Nazi party is also involved, does that make OWS a nazi movement? Is OWS supporting the notion that jews are evil and Aryans are the master race? Of course not. The communist elements are just that elements, as are the socialists.

Maybe you read this before my edit, but I already stated that I know not every person is calling for these idiotic things. Calm yourself.

You can stick your fingers in your ears and ignore it for as long as you see fit, it doesn't change the fact that they are trying to fix the system.

Yep, and they're the only ones trying to fix the system, right? If they hadn't "sat back" as you put it, then maybe they would understand how ludicrous that sounds.

There are always going to be fringe, vocal, elements trying to sway opinion this way or that way. Most of the world refuses to let the minority speak for the majority.

I wouldn't say that the communist, socialist ideals being preached are "fringe."

I'm about sick of this OWS crap. Every thread is the same.

You responded.

They want to end capitalism, they want to steal from the rich.

Not just the rich, at this point.

It has never been, nor it will it be, about "stealing" from the rich, or a complete forgiveness of debt, or a "free ride". you can moan and complain saying that is what they want, but it isn't, and if you don't know at this point, you refuse of accept information that goes contrary to the belief system you currently hold. You are living in a filter bubble.

The movement will be remembered, and justly so, by it's actions. Actions which are contrary to the fairy tale expressed in your statement.

The solution is plain as day. End the corruption, punish the criminals, and stop allowing them to play the tax code like a harp while everyone else, that horrible 99%, has to pick up the slack. Really most of the problems wouldn't exist if that were the case.

Which is why you should be in DC protesting, use your brains and go to the source. Its plain as day.

The end game is ending the Federal Reserve. but that requires something to replace it, not just ideas. That will take time. But what can be fixed now, overnight, is the corporate fraud and tax evasion.

Yeah, overnight, what are you waiting for then?

You're a CEO and you've defrauded your company out of millions of dollars, probably the retirement fund.
By some miracle, you get caught. At worst, a few months in jail, but most likely you'll pay a fine and be done with it.

The ceo doesn't sentence himself. Or make the law. Government is the problem here.

you're a worker and a home owner. you decided to (or accidentally) cheat on your taxes. You get caught. Can you buy your way out? No, you are going to prison my friend.

You don't accidentally cheat, you make a mistake. If you can't do your own taxes, you should pay someone who is qualified.

That's the core issue, that's the problem at the core that is rotting the entire thing.

People not being held accountable for their actions, or thinking they should? YES! Yes that is the problem.

the free market does work, but not when run from the top as a ponzi scheme.

Again, Government is your problem here. Don't sit back, don't give up, attack the source for crying out loud!

reply to post by DJM8507


Wonderful notion, except we are talking about humans here. We deal with the world as it actually is rather the hypothetical world where all people are equally motivated and productive. We don't live in the world you envision. That world only exists among those who enjoy the fruits of Capitalism as they sit inside Ivy Covered walls.

We however live in a country where our poor are among the worlds wealthiest people and yet they complain and demand handouts while refusing to follow the examples of those who succeed. Then as they watch others with the exact same tool set they have do well, while languishing in their own self pity demand the fruits of others work. The idea they should work hard, study hard or be productive angers them as they scheme how to get the government to take from others and give to them.

Half the earths population lives on under two dollars a day. Not because of anything the productive countries and peoples have done, but because of their own cultures. The oldest societies do the worst of all, even though they have had far longer to develop. The former cradle of science and math chose themselves to embrace a culture of hate and have for over a millennium slaughtered one another over differences in how they interpret their religion.

In our culture even people who choose to do nothing in their lives never see a day where they go hungry unless it is by personal choice. We are the most giving people on the planet. The segment of our society who are the least giving are those from the fringe Left who demand the most and give the least. Strangely enough without fanfare the fringe Left also became the richest segment of our society while complaining bitterly about the evils of the Capitalism that lined their own pockets with gold.

Our Celebrities who themselves become fabulously wealthy through the most Capitalistic of all trades yell the loudest and pretend to represent the other side. But then they are entertainers who specialize in deception are they not? If they were for real, they would themselves share all they earn equally with those who clean up after them. Who is the most deserving, those who amass extreme wealth by simply playing in front of a camera or those who through work and innovation build huge companies that employ tens of thousands of people in high paying jobs? An yet the Left heaps its praise on the least important people in our society and cares not about their in your face hypocrisy.

The idea of the utopian society you envision has been put forth by some of the most evil people in mans history to lure people into what amounts to slavery. Marxist and Communist ideals have resulted in massive suffering and death and those who push that agenda always end up being among the most evil to ever walk the planet. Yet idealist simply ignore history and lie themselves into believing the reason it does not work is because they were not in charge. They convince themselves it will end differently if only they were to be the ones to control things. They ignore the true nature of the human animal and the fact if you give us something for nothing and we have no reason to get out of bed in the morning, we always self-destruct.

For now, we being who and what we are, Capitalism remains our best chance at a reasonably good life. Unlike the alternatives Capitalism allows for personal freedom while Socialism and Communism require complete government control. Control by elitists like Obama and the Alinsky crowd who would live in Ivory Towers while touting what Saints they in fact are. Who exclude themselves from the rich and powerful they claim to hate while all the while living in wealth and luxury.

We should leave the imaginary world of philosophers to the grossly overpaid Professors of truth in prestigious Universities, where they are insulated from the true nature of man and can pretend to understand a world they know nothing about. Those that can, do.

reply to post by charles1952

People on ATS are being advised to prepare for when TSHTF, but they can't see that they're the ones throwing it.

I think thats the best way it's ever been put. Thank you for putting it in that context. That deserves much more than my humble little star. Once again brilliant.

reply to post by GringoViejo


The argument is "Well, at least we (OWS) are doing something".

Basically

reply to post by GringoViejo


Hi.

I can try and offer a small contribution...

Voting should be done annually. Officials hold their seats until they are voted out. Candidates receiving more than 50% 'No Confidence' votes are disqualified from holding any office seat anywhere in the future. Voting will be by the individual;

-Signing it into law will be the job of the Representatives whose salaries are capped at 15% above poverty.

Each name on each ballot has a check-box for "No Confidence."

Since the Constitution has been hi-jacked and rewritten to accommodate the few out of the many...

E Pluribus Unum

Great idea for a good thread!

Originally posted by AmatuerSkyWatcher
But but but, OP , they are already taking my stuff, and I have no say. They are taking it and giving it to the already rich bankers because they made a mistake. The bankers aren't hurting, infact they have given themselves nice big bonuses. Yet here I am, indebted for the rest of my days for something I didn't take part in, or have a choice about.

Apathy doesn't absolve you of responsibility. You did make a choice, to not get involved in your government. Claiming that you had no say is an outright lie.

Your problem is in DC, not NY.

Originally posted by GringoViejo


One example I've seen here on ATS is a proposed (global) cap on wealth. The proposal involves people being limited to earning a billion dollars, after that, they can't keep anymore. It gets put back into the system for "the good of the people."

Now, most of OWS would see this and go "Yeah! What's wrong with that? Nobody needs anymore than that anyways!"

Not to mention that who gets to decide where that money goes.
Oh yeah, I forgot, the Govt. Same Govt that brought us the Fed, Bailouts and so on.

Fuel to the fire.

Originally posted by doctornamtab
Constitutional Solutions

Lottocracy for Congress - This is direct democracy run much like jury duty, except for Congress. This is the only way to truly have a government of, by and for the people.

A right to free food and shelter - We got tons of food, millions of empty homes, apartments, hotels, hostels, dormitories, etc. We can provide these basic life necesities for everyone. It would make unemployment a non issue and create an entirely optional market economy. Then, IF YOU CHOOSE, you can work some job for more money. Food and shelter are our most primary human needs, it should be our primary human right.
Boom.

You can keep your direct democracy. I'll continue trying to fix the republic.

No one has the right to free food or shelter. Someone will have to build it, someone will have to cook it. They will need compensated, as slavery is not legal. If your answer is "the government" then I have no interest in hearing it, it would require a larger, more inefficient government