OWS and the Baby Kitten Defense

reply to post by beezzer
It would seem you have uncovered Obama's whole campaign strategy..................and the progressive socialist and the Democratic base.What you have purposed here is the base for all debate from the left when they realize that no body wants to here an argument for progressive socialism.

If you doubt this listen to what Michelle Obama has to say on her campaign blitz.It would seem "THEY" are finally letting Michelle talk.

Originally posted by beezzer


When they say, "We want a global/socialist one-world economy along with a totalitarian regime and we want to rescue baby kittens."

Others will say, "I don't agree with you."

Then they retort back with, "Why do you hate baby kittens?"

Very fair assessment. And it's true in many cases. The baby kittens are honestly why I support the OWS as I agree with the spirit of the movement despite my hesitance with a few of the details.

Interestingly, it's almost the opposite of the Tea Party's "Old Skunk Offense" where I agreed with their functional argument on many government stances but on social (kitten) issues, they showed some repelling (skunk) attitudes.

OWS I like despite the details and the Tea Party I disliked because of the details. Again, there is a split specifically engineered to keep people like us from fully selling out to anything that goes against the establishment. There's always got to be that one hang-up they know will keep Americans from uniting against them.

reply to post by Battleline
Thank you.
This was my thinking when I created this thread.

Kittens. Who's going to hate kittens.

But the ever present concept of socialism is the 900 pound gorilla in the room that is hiding behind the cute fluffy kitten.

reply to post by Cuervo
If it were just fluffy cute kittens, then I'd be behind it. And I will go so far as to say that many protesting are there for the right and honerable reasons.

It's the folks behind the scenes, Jones, Trumpka et al, that have made me hesitant to give my support.

To the detractors and friends alike. . . .

If the Tea Party were hijacked (as many claim) the worse thing that may happen is that government may not shrink as we want it to, the debt will still increase, and we won't get the right type of idiot in the White House or congress.

If the OWS gets hijacked (as I assume it has) then government grows, entitlement grows, socialism encroaches, and freedoms are lost.

Before anyone says it, yeah, I suppose we could switch Tea Party and OWS and find the same things. But that is doubtful in my wee mind.

So pet the kitten, adore the kitten, praise the kitten.

But always be suspicious of what may be hidng behind the wee little fluff-wad.

Originally posted by beezzer
freedoms are lost.

What are these freedoms people are fearing they will lose?

Originally posted by Cuervo

Very fair assessment. And it's true in many cases. The baby kittens are honestly why I support the OWS as I agree with the spirit of the movement despite my hesitance with a few of the details.

Interestingly, it's almost the opposite of the Tea Party's "Old Skunk Offense" where I agreed with their functional argument on many government stances but on social (kitten) issues, they showed some repelling (skunk) attitudes.

OWS I like despite the details and the Tea Party I disliked because of the details. Again, there is a split specifically engineered to keep people like us from fully selling out to anything that goes against the establishment. There's always got to be that one hang-up they know will keep Americans from uniting against them.

Agree with this on many levels.

Politically, I agreed with the Tea Party. However, I was disenfranchised by an overtly Christian, intolerant social outlook that became prevalent.

OWS sounds nice, but I'm completely disenfranchised by what is becoming an overtly socialist movement. Politically, they lost my support.

Now I just sit in the middle and complain to myself.

Originally posted by gentledissident

Originally posted by beezzer
freedoms are lost.

What are these freedoms people are fearing they will lose?

The freedom to fail.

Lemme explain!

In more "government involved" societies, there is no freedom to fail. There is always a safety net. When you lose that freedom to fail, you also lose that feeling of success. There is none. What joy is there, if there is no risk? A sort of apathy intrudes and a lethargy becomes prevalent.

Originally posted by beezzer
there is no freedom to fail. There is always a safety net.

You fear what I crave

Originally posted by beezzer
When you lose that freedom to fail, you also lose that feeling of success.

If no one failed, I would consider that a huge success.

Originally posted by beezzer
What joy is there, if there is no risk?

Have you tried board games?

Originally posted by beezzer
A sort of apathy intrudes and a lethargy becomes prevalent.

What makes you think this? I would be teeming with energy in a utopia.

reply to post by gentledissident

I could point to the ennui that is present in every socialistic society, the lack of drive, the lack of risk-taking, but. . . . whatever. Gonna get a government check soon. Might as well take a nap.

reply to post by beezzer


I kind of get the concept you are trying to convey, but I don't think it's applicable. The socialist aspect gets focused on by media that seeks to detract, much the same as racism was focused on for TPM. It's very difficult for me as a liberal to say maybe I was wrong, maybe we're not as different as we are told we are. Maybe there's something to be gained from most (definitely not all) of the political aspects represented by both movements? Or maybe at least for the moment we can ignore the differences and focus on the commonalities? We must let our government know that we will tolerate being lied to or short sold, anymore.

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by beezzer

 

I kind of get the concept you are trying to convey, but I don't think it's applicable. The socialist aspect gets focused on by media that seeks to detract, much the same as racism was focused on for TPM. It's very difficult for me as a liberal to say maybe I was wrong, maybe we're not as different as we are told we are. Maybe there's something to be gained from most (definitely not all) of the political aspects represented by both movements? Or maybe at least for the moment we can ignore the differences and focus on the commonalities? We must let our government know that we will tolerate being lied to or short sold, anymore.

I wish I could just take from the OWS what I agree with and discard the rest.

But with socialism, it's a damned slippery slope. It cuts against my grain.

If I were an OWS, I'd hijack the movement, deny any and all endorsements from everyone (I learn from experience) and start on DC.

Tea Party and OWS have many of the same grievances, but their solutions are mutually exclusive. I'm 100% with the earlier phase of the Tea Party Movement. But they got co-opted by neo cons, conservative media, and the Republican Party. The earlier, Paulian phase of the movement pushed personal responsibility, limited government, self sufficiency, self reliance, and local empowerment. Things completely incompatible with collectivist, globalist ideologies.

I was initially interested in and sympathetic to OWS until I read more and more of the ATS posts by its supporters on here. I also watched the youtube videos put up by the OWS supporters themselves and read pro-OWS blogs. Very little MSM input. I don't see how some think that it is not at heart an anti-capitalist, anti-American movement. Some on here are very blatant about it (in this thread even). Yet many well intentioned folks seem to be projecting their own frustrations and vision onto OWS, not realizing that they are supporting a movement that actually goes against their interests and beliefs.

I'm not sure why I even worry about it so much. At least in my part of the country, no one even talks about it any more and last I heard, our Occupy movement has fewer than 50 people left. And the weather has been more than beautiful in the last couple of weeks.
I kind of liked it because they were "occupying" in front of City Hall, a place I never care to go anyway. But it meant that all the young, able bodied, tatted and pierced up panhandlers would leave me alone at red lights for that brief period. By the way, there are plenty help wanted signs about town. Not to mention another 3-5 years worth of hurricane recovery and construction jobs. I guess a plum, US government FEMA funded job isn't good enough to receive. They crave those handouts!

reply to post by beezzer


It's funny, WalkingFox was right. It is explained to you to a point to where even you agree its a good idea, but then the first idiot conservative, glen beck disciple comes and and gives you a pat on that back for the thread and you are back to hypnotized.

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
reply to post by beezzer

 

It's funny, WalkingFox was right. It is explained to you to a point to where even you agree its a good idea, but then the first idiot conservative, glen beck disciple comes and and gives you a pat on that back for the thread and you are back to hypnotized.

No. Not at all. I can more readily agree with that point of view though I am sympathetic to other viewpoints. In the end, however, I will not sacrifice my principles, my core beliefs for a "cute baby kitten".

I will not let the media sway my stance, nor will I let a few posters sway my stance. My core beliefs are not some god-damned barometer that waivers whenever the seasons change. The fact that I'm willing to even entertain the ideas that may be present at the OWS events should at least indicate that I am willing to listen.

But just because I'm willing to listen, don't take that as tacit approval.

Originally posted by beezzer
To the detractors and friends alike. . . .

If the Tea Party were hijacked (as many claim) the worse thing that may happen is that government may not shrink as we want it to, the debt will still increase, and we won't get the right type of idiot in the White House or congress.

Govenment did grow, corruption did increase, and rights were lost, thanks to the OWS voters who slammed in a bunch of crazy-level "social conservatives" who had corporate price tags.

If the OWS gets hijacked (as I assume it has) then government grows, entitlement grows, socialism encroaches, and freedoms are lost.

Tricky thing about hijacking OWS vs. the Tea Party.

The Tea Party wasn't really "protesting" anything. They were angry that a Democrat was in the white house (and in many cases, even angrier that he was a black man to boot). And... that made up the bulk of it, really. There was some "I want poor people to suffer more" schadenfreude along with "shoot more illegals" rhetoric, but mostly it was "I hate the new president." Since these are platforms that are completely sympathetic to the modern Republican party, it was pretty easy to just herd these guys into going Republican, and voting for men and women who are, without any doubt, the worst clump of legislators our nation has seen.

OWS, on the other hand, doesn't mesh well with the modern Democratic party. The Democrats of today are a moderate-right party, adherents of fiscal liberalism (that is, the "free market" lasseiz-faire ideology), ever-increased "defense spending," foreign intervention, and a hands-off policy on social issues. They're even willing to cut the throats of our nation's veterans and elders, if the Republican party tells them it's a good idea. OWS disagrees with pretty much all of this.if the democratic party tries to co-opt the occupy movement, it's going to stand out like a sore thumb and be met with resistance and demands. if anything, the Democratic party is more likely to be hijacked by OWS - it seems a majority of Democratic voters actually favor OWS to their own party leaders, after all. Not surprising, as a good solid number of the Democratic constituents are way more liberal and left than the Democratic party itself is.

As for "freedoms lost," I think you managed to sum it up pretty well - the only freedom lost would be the freedom to feel terror as your life slips through your fingers because of loan shark debt paired with a lack of government support sending you and your family into a flaming spiral of poverty. While i'm sure you feel this "freedom" should be preserved, I harbor doubts.

Before anyone says it, yeah, I suppose we could switch Tea Party and OWS and find the same things. But that is doubtful in my wee mind.

So pet the kitten, adore the kitten, praise the kitten.

But always be suspicious of what may be hidng behind the wee little fluff-wad.

I think even you've forgotten the point of your initial kitten analogy

reply to post by beezzer


Experience is a hard teacher, but fools will have no other.

Benjamin Franklin


The OWS stands for one thing! You hear it everywhere you go.

They say "We are the 99%, that Washington is owned and ran by the 1%. They say we live in a Fascist state, and that it has become impossible to distinguish between elected officials and concentrated capital in this country. That in a system where special interest can pull its backing and in effect destroy a candidates re-election chances, is the same as being fired by your boss! The law should be accountable to the people etc... "

I don’t see any kittens here! I just see more manipulated individuals who would vote for Hitler himself to ousts Obama. OWS is not about Obama or the left!

Sorry, but the problem is a much bigger than deficit spending, regulations or taxes. You cannot deny that when our elections are for sale we do in effect have a dictatorship in this country! Its not happening it has already happened! This is Fascist America! You are like a Chihuahua snarling at a thousand strong mob of pit bulls.

President Bush and Obama used "signing statements" hundreds of times to vitiate the meaning of statutes passed by Congress. In effect, Bush was vetoing the bills he signs into law by asserting unilateral authority as commander-in-chief to bypass or set aside the laws he signs. For example, Bush asserted that he had the power to ignore the McCain amendment against torture, to ignore the law that requires a warrant to spy on Americans, to ignore the prohibition against indefinite detention without charges or trial, and to ignore the Geneva Conventions to which the US is signatory. Obama has killed American citizens without due process etc… That’s just some the stuff we know about!

It does not really matter under what pretext this all took place. What matter is that it elevated our president above the law, and although unlikely this is how every dictatorship in history has come to pass. Worst of all we are open to more of the same from any future president! If you can trump one right you can trump them all!

Originally posted by radosta
I don't see how some think that it is not at heart an anti-capitalist, anti-American movement.

I don't think you know what capitalism is or how it works or what its ideal method of functioning is.

Further, I don't think you have much of a grip on what "America" is about.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox
You're the epitome of fail.
First off, I joined the Tea Party while Bush was president, so get off the Obama bandwagon and try reading comprehension for a change.

Second, if you can't see past the "fluffy kitten" in the room then you rightly deserve the servitude that you so espouse.

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by TheWalkingFox

 

You epitome of fail.

Your mother.

First off, I joined the Tea Party while Bush was president, so get off the Obama bandwagon and try reading comprehension for a change.

Awesome for you. That still leaves nearly four years of exactly what I described, though. As opposed to a few months of what you cling to. Which do you think is the bigger factor in the reality of the tea party? Which do you think was the deciding factor in the 2010 elections?

Second, if you can't see past the "fluffy kitten" in the room then you rightly deserve the servitude that you so espouse.

The "fluffy kitten" you started out with is a straw man, a phantom imagining of your own creation, not bolstered by any aspect of reality. You then took this false positive and repeatedly attacked it, the whole while pretending that this gave you some sort of credence, that you were actually making a point. All it really means is that even you are able to tear apart the silly nonsense you dream up.