If 'Reincarnation' exists, then.....?

Reincarnation is imo very likely (I believe that most anything that happens will happen again given enough time, and that thing in this case is you and I having conscious thoughts), if you are able to strip down the notion of self to consciousness.

As far as coming back with our memories/knowledge -- ever try to teach an old dog new tricks? I for one would not want to come back with some of my bad habits/engrained ways of thinking. Many of those ways of thinking are time-relevant (meaning they might only be a burden or useless in another life -- skills and preconceptions both qualify). Change is the key to our dynamic universe, and nothing can last forever. Even though this may seem like a bad thing, it (change) is what enables our reality.

Coming back as a baby with a lifetime of practical wisdom/experience might sound nice, but what would be the value in the journey then? That would be very different than what we consider an evolving/healthy life experience.

You'd never have another "first kiss" moment, and not have normal growth (Breast milk?! No thanks, I prefer Red Bull... :-P).

You'd be George Carlin in a baby's body. Sounds a lot like Stewie Griffin actually. I do think it would be nice to have some soul essence/energy (karma?) that carries over from life to life. Even that however might doom people from the get-go. If you believe that there is no pure evil, only lost/damaged people, then it wouldn't be very fair for them to start again with bad karma.

The biggest problem I have with reincarnation is the animal kingdom, to be honest. While I can see some positives in the simple life of a house cat, and while I can see some nice things about the life of non-humans, I just don't think it can compare to the experiences/pleasures of this life. A human life involves a lot of work, and is a major investment (we seemingly lose a lot when we die). But I just don't think I would want to be an amoeba. If you think animals are separate from people on the reincarnation system, then it's DEFINITELY not far to be stuck as an amoeba. So my biggest problem with reincarnation honestly relates to the animal kingdom/fairness (I don't see how the system could be fair to all parties all of the time). Maybe it's completely random, and lifetimes over time provides the fairness. Or maybe life's not fair! :-P Personally, I gotta think the amoeba could repark as a human, and vice-versa...

I believe in reincarnation simply because I have worked as a hypnotherapist and regressed people.

My training wrecked any pretentions of religious belief I had simply because if one reincarnates, obviously one does not go to their heaven or hell.

I wonder if we don't remember simply because we would bring all our old memories with us. Imagine going back to somewhere some hundred years later and wanting to see the people one was with then, everyone would be wondering around seeing out lost loved ones. Many perhaps wouldn't come into the now and would remain trapped in their past lives totally disorientated.

reply to post by Phantom traveller


Your post resonates with me, my friend. To me it seems obvious that human souls experience reincarnation, and the vast majority of us have probably been here before. What you say about our past life experiences shaping our personalities in this life rings true to me, in my case I have always been drawn to music since as young as I can remember I have always felt the urge to become a musician. My best friend who I grew up with also shared this unexplained yearning from a very young age and we have grown up chasing that dream ever since. We have come far since then; we have become skilled composers and guitar players and played in various groups. Our current band is nominated for a local award show for best metal act in the south west of England so we must be doing something right
My point is that I have felt for a long time now that me and my friend were musicians in a past life and knew each other, I don't normally say this to anyone because I don't expect anyone to take me seriously but it just seems right to me.
Also, nice avatar man, Hypocrisy is one of my favourite metal bands!
Peace

Originally posted by Manula
Its part of the game, that you dont remember the past, that you start again, free from the conscious memories of the past (they are in your unconscious).
The soul must be tested, and it must learn to make the right actions and decisions, not knowing all the answers (consciously).

So, what is the point of "the soul" if the soul isn't the person? Really.

If the soul retains no conscious awareness, and as a result, achieves no progressively emergent self through repeated development periods as the corporeal human being, then what does the relationship between the corporeal human being and this "soul" actually accomplish that relates in any manner to either the soul's supposed goal or the obvious goal of a successful corporeal human existence?

You can invent a drama that this meaningless rinse/repeat could conceivably enhance, but that's not the same thing as uncovering the existential imperative that is being satisfied by having the soul (whatever that's supposed to be) senselessly repeat the same 40-70 years of relative ignorance as an existential neophyte.

I think that ancient people noticed something unusual, and put their own spin on what it was. Like worshiping the moon because it was the biggest thing in the night sky. We know the moon's a big rock that's reflecting the light of the sun. The indications that spawned the concept of Reincarnation will be revealed to be caused by something very different than what those ancient thinkers imagined. Of course, if anyone pursuing that possibility is consistently rebuked by traditionalists, then it'll take quite a while before the true source of those indications is finally revealed. The truth is that if Reincarnation is authentic, then it'll survive aggressive scrutiny. If it's not, then why allow it to persist?

I often wonder why "children" or infants die, what was their purpose, what did they learn after coming back again and how did it help them spiritually grow? The only thing I can come up with is, they were here to teach (someone else) a lesson, maybe it is the Mother to whom they were born, or even some person who reads the story in the paper who's life is changed forever because of it if even in a small way.

reply to post by drivebricker

People come and go my friend, I understand it is hard to comprehend why these things happen. The Mayfly for example, lives from between 30 minutes and 24 hours. Everything happens for a reason, and like you said maybe these things happen to teach a lesson to other humans. One thing that bugs me though, is if our souls are here to learn from our life experiences, why do we not carry these learnings into the next life. Or do we simply reincarnate because our soul has not learnt what it is supposed to?

Reincarnation is real, and here is a pragmatic, physics-based explanation of it:

1. Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only changed in form.

2. Nature is extremely conservative, doesn't waste anything, and is extremely efficient in storing huge amounts of information in very small packages.

3. Individual consciousness can be described as a uniquely structured pattern of self-sustaining energy.

4. The world we exist in is subject to wildly fluctuating streams of energy in the form of sunlight, moonlight, the solar wind and CMEs, radiation, neutrinos, etc.

5. The physical body is both a protective shield against the natural energy fluxes, and a temporary booster information storage system, akin to RAM in a computer.

6. The core that survives the death of the body is effected by how you lived your life and those things you paid attention to. Every religion and philosophical system ever known has always stressed the importance of "walking the walk" and making things part of you, i.e., encoding the beliefs/behaviors into that structured pattern of energy that constitutes you so that you carry them with you eternally.

7. When the body dies, the information held in RAM is lost, and only that which has been written to the "hard drive", i,e, our souls, that structured pattern of energy, survives the reboot, i.e., reincarnation. That core is subject to degradation every moment it is exposed to the the raw energy fluxes of the environment.

8. Over time, as awareness grows, that structured pattern, "soul", learns better information compression and shielding techniques and is able to retain more information (memories) for longer periods unhoused in a body.

9. Nature abhors a vacuum. Every living thing is conscious to one degree or another.

Note that this model of reincarnation explains quite handily what we see in the real world. It explains the varying levels of maturity (not physical age-related). It explains child prodigies. It illuminates the reasons why so many religious/ethical/moral systems are so similar.

I should point out that it accounts for evil, too, in that it is a neutral system: whatever walk you walk and make part of your system, it will be easier to follow that same path upon reincarnation, for good or evil. It also allows for changing from one path to the other.

As for where "new" souls come from, the question might be better asked, where do animal ones go? If I'm correct, then increasing numbers of human bodies combined with decreasing numbers of animal bodies implies that higher-conscious animal spirits pass into human bodies. Higher-conscious because that soul needs the extra mental room, that is, the physical capacity a human nervous system provides, to further its growth. It would certainly explain some of the behaviors we see, it would take a few lifetimes to transition fully from the behaviors of one form of life to another. Plus, see numbers 2 and 9.

reply to post by Marlborough Red

I have memories from several of my past lives...but there only of important times or events in those lives (not the entire life) I also didn't start getting them until I was about 19 (10 years ago). They have come in dream form....and when I had the first one it was so Vivid I could feel all the emotions as if I was their experiencing them. At first I tried to brush it off as "just a dream." Then a year later I met my husband and 2 years after we married I found out he had the exact SAME dream!!

Its the 1700 or 1800's and I am in a big two story house with my brother. I am 5 year old girl and my brother is 7 year old. We are in the down stairs living room. We are surrounded by fire everywhere. We are trapped but also frozen in fear not knowing what to do. As young children we hug each other, and my brother pats me saying, "Its okay, it will be okay." I can smell the fire burning, but I dont know whats going to happen or what I should do. I am confused and I feel every type of emotion.
Then I wake up and remember feeling sad because I KNOW they died.
Fast forward to 3 years later and my husband and I are watching the news. It is of a house burning down. Immediately I remember that dream and as I open my mouth to share it with my husband he says, "Hmm...that reminds me of a dream I had when I was 15, it was of a boy and a girl and they are trapped in a burning house and they die."
With complete shock I realize that it was us a children once before.

I believe the reason why some of us remember our dreams and some dont (yet) is because the person's spirit has to be cleansed first of some negative karma. This is difficult to understand, because EVERYONE has "some" negative karma (otherwise we would have already ascended to heaven/4D) However, as I like to explain it in $ Money terms...some people OWE more karmic DEBT than others do while incarnating.

I am a young soul as this is my 5th cycle here on earth and I am a fast learner when it comes to the spirit which is why I can access my past lives. I am sure their are other ways because the Universe or "God" is infinite and eternal in its ways, you just got to get CREATIVE.

Also, someone asked, "Why dont we carry our memories into our next lives?"
Well, we do carry it...its in our DNA. Its just that some can access it easier than others can. I would suggest meditating, focus on clearing your mind on several occasions and when you feel efficient in this you can start asking your HS (higher-self) to show you a past life that you could learn from in this current life, by a dream or any form you prefer.

I never understood in a good way why catholic church is telling us reincarnation does not exist ....
what does it chan ge for them anyway, the result is the same no ?
have to look better into this or maybe someone can tell ?

Originally posted by Sunlionspirit
I never understood in a good way why catholic church is telling us reincarnation does not exist ....
what does it chan ge for them anyway, the result is the same no ?
have to look better into this or maybe someone can tell ?

Jesus Christ wouldnt be so special now if the church didn't exclude the rest of us from reincarnation now would he.

Originally posted by apacheman
Reincarnation is real, and here is a pragmatic, physics-based explanation of it:

1. Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only changed in form.

Take the time to properly understand that axiom as it was originally stated. It doesn't mean what you are trying to present it as meaning.

The law of conservation of energy is a law of physics. It states that the total amount of energy in an isolated system remains constant over time (is said to be conserved over time). A consequence of this law is that energy can neither be created nor be destroyed: it can be transformed from one form to another or transferred from one place to another. The only thing that can happen to energy in an isolated system is that it can change form: for instance chemical energy can become kinetic energy; energy can enter or leave a closed system.

en.wikipedia.org...

2. Nature is extremely conservative, doesn't waste anything, and is extremely efficient in storing huge amounts of information in very small packages.

This doesn't address the notion under consideration, since the concept of Reincarnation doesn't involve conservation of information. It involves the reassignment of dynamic information from one generating source that's failed to a new and unrelated generating source, without any regard for the survival imperative expression "inimitable Identity" which in all other instances of physical existence is a primordial requirement. Conservation by the contextual environment has not been demonstrated to be so crucial as to justify an extreme violation of any other existential staple, so why would unique and isolative Identity be treated as an exception? The logic simply doesn't work out.

3. Individual consciousness can be described as a uniquely structured pattern of self-sustaining energy.

It can also be described as spirit, soul, angel, demon, vivid imagination, and a host of other terms. In short, a description means nothing.

4. The world we exist in is subject to wildly fluctuating streams of energy in the form of sunlight, moonlight, the solar wind and CMEs, radiation, neutrinos, etc.

I have no idea what this has to do with what you're attempting to build here.

5. The physical body is both a protective shield against the natural energy fluxes, and a temporary booster information storage system, akin to RAM in a computer.

And this statement has been proven to not be accurate. Gama radiation rips right through the human body, as does any of a variety of naturally occurring energy flows (like electricity).

More in the next post......

Originally posted by TetsuoIronMan
reply to post by drivebricker

 

People come and go my friend, I understand it is hard to comprehend why these things happen. The Mayfly for example, lives from between 30 minutes and 24 hours. Everything happens for a reason, and like you said maybe these things happen to teach a lesson to other humans. One thing that bugs me though, is if our souls are here to learn from our life experiences, why do we not carry these learnings into the next life. Or do we simply reincarnate because our soul has not learnt what it is supposed to?

I was told that we DO remember these learnings, it's just called "intuition"! or some call it a "Gut Feeling"

Originally posted by apacheman
6. The core that survives the death of the body is effected by how you lived your life and those things you paid attention to. Every religion and philosophical system ever known has always stressed the importance of "walking the walk" and making things part of you, i.e., encoding the beliefs/behaviors into that structured pattern of energy that constitutes you so that you carry them with you eternally.

I agree with this notion of retaining the "you" that you spent your life creating, and this is the main reason why the idea that you simply toss off that creation and assume a new "self-generation" system - for any reason whatsoever - is such a difficult idea to embrace. Nature doesn't waste a primary net result, and Reincarnation violates that basic natural tenet of nature. Even if you can invent convolutions to effectively defend the idea, the direct violation of natural progression is obvious, and therefore something that would require the engineer of this concept to overwhelm the whole of natural existence in order to impose this construct.

7. When the body dies, the information held in RAM is lost, and only that which has been written to the "hard drive", i,e, our souls, that structured pattern of energy, survives the reboot, i.e., reincarnation. That core is subject to degradation every moment it is exposed to the the raw energy fluxes of the environment.

Interesting that you assume that information must be embedded within material, and protected from natural energy forces. No physicists believe this, and even the most conservative among them agree that information exists as determinative when natural forces and their elemental natures are examined. In short, information causes "natural forces" to be the way they are. This clashes with your suggestion that these natural forces degrade information. Maybe you need to rethink the nature of matter and the relationship information has with what we consider to be material.

8. Over time, as awareness grows, that structured pattern, "soul", learns better information compression and shielding techniques and is able to retain more information (memories) for longer periods unhoused in a body.

And how does this soul (whatever it is, in your view) learn anything? Does the soul have a brain? Where does the soul get information concerning how to shield itself, and how does it learn what it is that it needs to shield itself from. Also, do you have any real idea what the human body is actually made of? Do you think that it's a hollow tube that the soul hides out in? Seriously, how do you see corporeal existence? Certainly not in the way that any scientists or physicists view it.

9. Nature abhors a vacuum. Every living thing is conscious to one degree or another.

The 1st half of this sentence is unrelated to the 2nd half of this sentence.

Note that this model of reincarnation explains quite handily what we see in the real world. It explains the varying levels of maturity (not physical age-related). It explains child prodigies. It illuminates the reasons why so many religious/ethical/moral systems are so similar.

I should point out that it accounts for evil, too, in that it is a neutral system: whatever walk you walk and make part of your system, it will be easier to follow that same path upon reincarnation, for good or evil. It also allows for changing from one path to the other.

As for where "new" souls come from, the question might be better asked, where do animal ones go? If I'm correct, then increasing numbers of human bodies combined with decreasing numbers of animal bodies implies that higher-conscious animal spirits pass into human bodies. Higher-conscious because that soul needs the extra mental room, that is, the physical capacity a human nervous system provides, to further its growth. It would certainly explain some of the behaviors we see, it would take a few lifetimes to transition fully from the behaviors of one form of life to another. Plus, see numbers 2 and 9.

Fascinating. I think I'll let my critiques of the points you listed be the main thrust of my challenge. The rest of this...? I don't really see the value in addressing it.

I've only recently began to really consider reincarnation. That said, I believe the memory part of it is on a karmic level and not one easily accessed with the senses we have as humans. Perhaps it's that way for a reason?

Have you ever read something dealing with spirit/knowledge and just "know" that you already knew that? To me, that's tapping into the karmic level. But by getting to know yourself and realizing who you are and why you choose to be here may uncover more info.

I'm still working on this.

Originally posted by Marlborough Red
A perhaps relatively simple question that certainly can't be answered in a simple way.

If reincarnation/s exist then why doe we not remember previous lives or beings?

Something I have been pondering for a while and was wondering what others thoughts on the subject may be?


MR

What if your soul is trillions upon trillions upon trillions of earth years old? Dew you think you could possibly handle all memories of every lifeform you've "played" in your existence?

What if this thing you call life, the Earth Endgame Matrix, isn't true life, true life is in soulform only? Dew you think you'd dew everything exactly as you have, if you knew the truth?

What if?????

That's the Greatest Question of All Time!

Ribbit

Originally posted by NorEaster

Originally posted by Manula
Its part of the game, that you dont remember the past, that you start again, free from the conscious memories of the past (they are in your unconscious).
The soul must be tested, and it must learn to make the right actions and decisions, not knowing all the answers (consciously).

So, what is the point of "the soul" if the soul isn't the person? Really.

If the soul retains no conscious awareness, and as a result, achieves no progressively emergent self through repeated development periods as the corporeal human being, then what does the relationship between the corporeal human being and this "soul" actually accomplish that relates in any manner to either the soul's supposed goal or the obvious goal of a successful corporeal human existence?

You can invent a drama that this meaningless rinse/repeat could conceivably enhance, but that's not the same thing as uncovering the existential imperative that is being satisfied by having the soul (whatever that's supposed to be) senselessly repeat the same 40-70 years of relative ignorance as an existential neophyte.

I think that ancient people noticed something unusual, and put their own spin on what it was. Like worshiping the moon because it was the biggest thing in the night sky. We know the moon's a big rock that's reflecting the light of the sun. The indications that spawned the concept of Reincarnation will be revealed to be caused by something very different than what those ancient thinkers imagined. Of course, if anyone pursuing that possibility is consistently rebuked by traditionalists, then it'll take quite a while before the true source of those indications is finally revealed. The truth is that if Reincarnation is authentic, then it'll survive aggressive scrutiny. If it's not, then why allow it to persist?

I find it moronically interesting that you humans think individuality applies to Souls, while in soulform?

What makes you think in soulform, WE learn individually, instead of sharing a Collective Consciousness and learning as ONE?

Your human stupidity shines through!

Ribbit

Originally posted by ButtUglyToad

Originally posted by NorEaster

Originally posted by Manula
Its part of the game, that you dont remember the past, that you start again, free from the conscious memories of the past (they are in your unconscious).
The soul must be tested, and it must learn to make the right actions and decisions, not knowing all the answers (consciously).

So, what is the point of "the soul" if the soul isn't the person? Really.

If the soul retains no conscious awareness, and as a result, achieves no progressively emergent self through repeated development periods as the corporeal human being, then what does the relationship between the corporeal human being and this "soul" actually accomplish that relates in any manner to either the soul's supposed goal or the obvious goal of a successful corporeal human existence?

You can invent a drama that this meaningless rinse/repeat could conceivably enhance, but that's not the same thing as uncovering the existential imperative that is being satisfied by having the soul (whatever that's supposed to be) senselessly repeat the same 40-70 years of relative ignorance as an existential neophyte.

I think that ancient people noticed something unusual, and put their own spin on what it was. Like worshiping the moon because it was the biggest thing in the night sky. We know the moon's a big rock that's reflecting the light of the sun. The indications that spawned the concept of Reincarnation will be revealed to be caused by something very different than what those ancient thinkers imagined. Of course, if anyone pursuing that possibility is consistently rebuked by traditionalists, then it'll take quite a while before the true source of those indications is finally revealed. The truth is that if Reincarnation is authentic, then it'll survive aggressive scrutiny. If it's not, then why allow it to persist?

I find it moronically interesting that you humans think individuality applies to Souls, while in soulform?

What makes you think in soulform, WE learn individually, instead of sharing a Collective Consciousness and learning as ONE?

Your human stupidity shines through!

Ribbit

...and you're not human?

And what does finding something "moronically interesting" mean?

Oh...and if a soul isn't individual, then how can it be anything - and how can there be a plurality of souls that exist if they aren't singularly individual, and capable of being collected in the way you've suggested.

Frankly, you've contradicted yourself from the first statement, and have no idea that this is what you've done.

What kind of stupidity is that, if it's not human stupidity? Toad stupidity?

Originally posted by NorEaster

Originally posted by ButtUglyToad

Originally posted by NorEaster

Originally posted by Manula
Its part of the game, that you dont remember the past, that you start again, free from the conscious memories of the past (they are in your unconscious).
The soul must be tested, and it must learn to make the right actions and decisions, not knowing all the answers (consciously).

So, what is the point of "the soul" if the soul isn't the person? Really.

If the soul retains no conscious awareness, and as a result, achieves no progressively emergent self through repeated development periods as the corporeal human being, then what does the relationship between the corporeal human being and this "soul" actually accomplish that relates in any manner to either the soul's supposed goal or the obvious goal of a successful corporeal human existence?

You can invent a drama that this meaningless rinse/repeat could conceivably enhance, but that's not the same thing as uncovering the existential imperative that is being satisfied by having the soul (whatever that's supposed to be) senselessly repeat the same 40-70 years of relative ignorance as an existential neophyte.

I think that ancient people noticed something unusual, and put their own spin on what it was. Like worshiping the moon because it was the biggest thing in the night sky. We know the moon's a big rock that's reflecting the light of the sun. The indications that spawned the concept of Reincarnation will be revealed to be caused by something very different than what those ancient thinkers imagined. Of course, if anyone pursuing that possibility is consistently rebuked by traditionalists, then it'll take quite a while before the true source of those indications is finally revealed. The truth is that if Reincarnation is authentic, then it'll survive aggressive scrutiny. If it's not, then why allow it to persist?

I find it moronically interesting that you humans think individuality applies to Souls, while in soulform?

What makes you think in soulform, WE learn individually, instead of sharing a Collective Consciousness and learning as ONE?

Your human stupidity shines through!

Ribbit

...and you're not human?

And what does finding something "moronically interesting" mean?

Oh...and if a soul isn't individual, then how can it be anything - and how can there be a plurality of souls that exist if they aren't singularly individual, and capable of being collected in the way you've suggested.

Frankly, you've contradicted yourself from the first statement, and have no idea that this is what you've done.

What kind of stupidity is that, if it's not human stupidity? Toad stupidity?

edit on 10/13/2011 by NorEaster because: (no reason given)

Being an individual soul has nothing to dew with a Collective Consciousness of One.

What part of twelve individual eggs being a dozen eggs together, don't you get? And while you collect eggs, you dew kNot collect souls, so your "collected" comment qualifies as moronically interesting.

You think just because you are an individual with independent thought, a soul is the same, when that isn't the truth. As a Soul, in soulform, you share ONE COLLECTIVE CONSCIOUSNESS with ALL SOULS, which means that while you are an individual soul, you dew kNot have independent thought, you think with the Whole as One. So why dew you need to learn an individual lesson, when you can learn from the Whole?

Ribbit

Here is the deal, from what I understand...there has been a so called quarantine on earth since the fall...aka the gods came down and manipulated dna to produce the Adams and Eves....that is against universal/cosmic law.

Therefore our souls basically have been recirculating in the system until we can achieve a high enough consciousness to have the ability to communicate with our cosmic counterparts and therefore lift the quarantine,

I know...I know...it sounds incredible, but so are many of the bible stories, yet we believe those too. It is up to you to know and understand.

Just throwing this theory out there.

reply to post by NorEaster


The point of the soul is a tranducer...something that converts one form of energy into another. It is the anchor and bridge from the physical world to the spiritual world. That is the souls purpose.

If you want to think about it like the program in a computer that is what it does. It has been pre-programmed with our life's mission.

The soul is not the spirit. It is different and most people confuse that.