Lisa Irwin - Missing - One Year Later

And I'd like to rescind one of my previous statements/ theories. IF Deborah did kill her baby and there is no proof of it thus far, she IS a criminal mastermind. I thought for sure if that was the case, she'd leave trails all over of evidence. But one thing bothering me is this: if she were truly blackout drunk and functioning, walking around talking etc, like blackout drunks are known to do.. and she did kill her baby , then there is no telling where the baby is. Do you see my point? Functioning in a completely unknown state . If that is the case she won't remember any of it and will be truly shocked if / when they find her and say " i didn't take her there' and she'll MEAN it because it would be so foreign to her .

reply to post by silo13


Aha, well we have heard of many of Deborah's discrepancies....... right? Imagine this.... Deborah told police initally so many more oddball , weird statements that made no sense that the police wrote it up as shock, trauma, distress etc. So they go with 4 a.m. but at the same time when they ask about last night they are getting x, y and z plus 1, 2 and 3 statements that do not go together at all. Things don't make sense and things seem fishy. It is at this time that Deborah says OMG i was drunk and dont' remember any of it. She's trying to throw off or explain all of those previuos statements,,, see why it didn't make sense the first time is because I didn't really remember but I didn't want to tell you how drunk I was. Police say, in good faith, we have no clue when baby came up missing, so we cannot say what time the amber alert should have begun.
This is mind boggling and I almost think I have to take a break from thinking on it. I've been a bad employee this week I can tell you for sure .....

Originally posted by silo13
reply to post by Jessicamsa

 

Yes, everytime we see a man carrying a baby, and the baby isn't dressed as we would dress the baby, we should call the cops...

Oh the drama of it all, lol. We're not talking a Sunday afternoon in the park or by the seaside for cripes sake!

If it's 0230 in the morning and the baby is dressed in a diaper? Yes. Pretty simple that.

If it's 0430 in the morning and the baby isn't dressed in a coat? Yes. Pretty obvious that.

Use your head. There could have been a car accident and the 'man ' is in shock. Or a house fire, shock again. Someone without a car who's scared because his baby is sick with a high temperature and needs help. Or I don't know, let's see, could it be SOMEONE'S STEELING A BABY?

Nothing at all wrong with being a good Samaritan, especially when a INFANT is involved.

peace

edit on 27-10-2011 by silo13 because: bbc bold

Yes, of course, it's for the children.

I sure do not want to live in a world where the cops are called out because someone didn't dress his baby to everyone's liking.

Or maybe have a curfew where if you have a baby, you're not allowed out after dark?

LOL What a world you want to live in.

I would think a good Samaritan would walk up to the man and see if he needed help instead of calling the cops on him to give him a beat down.

Does any one have any links to where is said their were blood curdling screams coming from the woods?
I have missed that part.

reply to post by silo13


It's morning here, and I've been up all night, I might not make much sense at this point.

I started out thinking the police were over worked, and looking for someone easy to convect. But the more I look, the more things I find that feel like the police are saying or doing one thing, but in such a way that it gives or creates the impression of another (or people read more into it than they should) by a very careful choice of words the police are creating illusions in my opinion. In America we are suppose to be innocent until convected in a court of law. At one time that meant we let some bad people walk/getaway because we didn't want to convict the innocent. (or maybe I was simply young then and naive?) Now to me it feels like we want revenge not justice.

I'd like to believe you can't have thirty or forty bad cops.... If that is true, then someone in charge could be bad... How many kids disappear in KC in a year? How does that compare to other areas? The FBI makes mistakes, look up Sandra Anderson and what she was convicted for, she is only one of many. The police in my mind had done enough things, that I am unwilling to gives them the benefit of doubt at this point. I believe that the police should be better than us, be held to a higher standard. I think when the police choose to get down in the dirt, and wallow they loose a special quality.

I really believe that Deborah and Jeremy have been demonized at this point, and it has been done by the police. To me that means the police have attempted to convict them in the court of public opinion. If a husband had dones this to his wife, were I come from he would be guilty of wife abuse, in the form of mental abuse. Our supreme court has said that it is okay for the police to lie to us, and to mentally manipulate us. To me that means I can no longer full trust the police. that is simply wrong in my opinion. I don't want to feel like I can't fully trust the people paid to protect me. I've seen to much video of police abusing their power this year. From the police pulling a disabled man out of his wheelchair and tossing him on the ground.... To the former marine who was shot in the face with a tear gas grenade. To the president deciding that based on the decision of his advisers, he can order the execution of Americans without a trial, without a conviction of a capital crime. We seem to be in a phase where what I believe were long held traditions are being tossed aside.

There are hundreds of officers involved in the search for baby Lisa. Are most of them incompetent? A few pages back I posted my thoughts on the application for the search warrant. I see some of the wording, and to me it is wrong. I see the search warrant being based on the word of a dog... And that word is NOT given by the handler of the dog (who would know the dog best) but by another officer from a different branch of the government! That makes me want to ask why? If it was me, or you there would not be much weight given to our second hand testimony. It would be like you giving testimony about my mate, based on what I told you about my mate. Any good judge would want to know why I wasn't doing it....

Things done in secret just don't sit well with me. Perhaps that is do to my untrusting nature? The more I dig, the more things find that I don't feel are honest or right. Like an onion there are layers and layers here. On the surface they appear okay, but underneath something smells.

I don't think of myself as very smart, or very talented to be honest. So I wonder why if I can find these things why can't others? Why aren't others questioning what this means? At this point I'm waiting to hear that Lisa will never be found. That her parents did it... But there is no body, and never will be. That will sadly make many of my countrymen happy. Because they can believe the parents did it, and they are better than Deborah, that they never would do that. But more importantly there is no monster out there waiting to get their child. We are safe, and can go back to sleep.


Part of me would like to believe its just poorly trained cops, then part of me remembers what I read about Fast and furious And how I heard talk about how Mexico has lost control of its drug dealers, how we should invade Mexico to put a stop to the drug killings there....

Originally posted by suzan
Does any one have any links to where is said their were blood curdling screams coming from the woods?
I have missed that part.

I posted this in my post, but here it is again,

[url=http://livewire.kmbc.com/Event/Live_Blog_Amber_Alert_Issued_For_Missing_10-Month-Old?Page=2]> click here

reply to post by Dav1d


David, I hear you loud and clear and I agree with you on a lot of what you've said. I want to still believe the police ( majority of them, of course there are bad apples in any bunch) are the good guys in this story. You say i f you can figure this out, why can't they ? the police? Perhaps they've already answered all of our questions and more and they are just not revealing to us what they know. I have NO PROBLEM with police withholding important information while a case is ongoing. I do have a big problem with them giving FALSE information. So far, until the discovery of Lisa, dead or alive , there is no way to know if there has been FALSO info given by police, right?
Also, perhaps the police are accusing them because they KNOW they did it. I mean supposing tthis neighbor who's been very quiet publicly , came in the next day and said '' look deborah did it, she told me when she was drunk that she did ,but that is all she said' . So from day one police feel very very very strongly that she did it, in fact, they almost KNOW she did, but without finding any proof that she did, they are at a stand still and they are probably still looking for intruder theory and again findign no proof of that happening.
I don't know. It's like we've rehashed and re hashed and nothing is new without new info. Maybe interviewing the little boys tomorrow will give some good info.

Im not ready to say the police are guilty of anything just yet, but yes the case is getting more and more odd each day with each report on both sides, police and non suspects !

I have not been able find any confirmation on this [screaming in the wood] It seems that no one else has looked much into this. Not to say it's not important, but .....
Could this be something that LE is aware of, but can't confirm? This story gets stranger and stranger. At this point I am even more cautious about what I read and hear. I wonder if LE are trying to get people on a wild goose chase, just to see what they come up with.

Originally posted by schmae
reply to post by silo13

 

Aha, well we have heard of many of Deborah's discrepancies....... right? Imagine this.... Deborah told police initally so many more oddball , weird statements that made no sense that the police wrote it up as shock, trauma, distress etc. So they go with 4 a.m. but at the same time when they ask about last night they are getting x, y and z plus 1, 2 and 3 statements that do not go together at all. Things don't make sense and things seem fishy. It is at this time that Deborah says OMG i was drunk and dont' remember any of it. She's trying to throw off or explain all of those previuos statements,,, see why it didn't make sense the first time is because I didn't really remember but I didn't want to tell you how drunk I was. Police say, in good faith, we have no clue when baby came up missing, so we cannot say what time the amber alert should have begun.
This is mind boggling and I almost think I have to take a break from thinking on it. I've been a bad employee this week I can tell you for sure .....

I think you are missing my point here...
The amber alert was issued at 7 am on the fourth. Three hours into the case. At this point the only time the police had heard for the last time Lisa was seen was 10:30 pm, on the third. So the police reported that the last time Lisa was seen was 4:00 am on the fourth. That had the effect of placing her in KC at 4:00 am that morning.

There is no hint on the fourth that Deborah in any way was not cooperating or telling multiple stories/timelines. Much has been made of Deborah changing the timeline from when she last saw Lisa from 10:30 on the third to 6:30 on the thirds difference of 4 hours. Yet when the police activated the avert they were off by five and a half hours...

reply to post by crappiekat


Hey Crappie, I did read several accounts of it, ALL secondhand as in on blogs, and sites like this etc. I've yet to see any sort of SOURCE infor for it. But a few of the accounts say something like this >>> a blood curdling scream in the woods reported by several 911 calls from neighbors at about 1 a.m. may have been traced back to the woman found wandering by the woods. IF TRUE, this sounds as though they found a person out there somewhere drunk, wandering, on drugs, etc who says I was screaming cuz of this or that , fight with someone or what not and it's been put aside as NOT related to Lisa at all. OR, seeing how the cops keep lots of info to themselves, maybe this woman is the key to everything and they want to keep her name and story out of the paper.
Lot of strange things going on in this quiet little area for a Monday night , right? I mean if this was a fri or sat night in a bigger city you'd think screaming people and dumpster fires and men carrying babies around would be the normal in a bigger population area........but a lot of oddities for this 'sleepy ' little community........

reply to post by Dav1d


Im not trying to cheerlead for the police I promise. I'm just trying to figure out why. In a missing baby case, maybe taht is SOP. Maybe she goes to bed at 10, but not reported missing at 4. So since there is no certain time to put down, they go with the last available time, as in we KNOW she is gone at 4 am. WE do not know if she is gone at 11. or 1 am or 2 am., but we KNOW she is gone at 4. see? I'm just speculating.

Tour of Irwin Bradley home abruptly postponed

The Kansas City attorney for the parents of missing 11-month-old Lisa Irwin abruptly postponed a scheduled media tour on Thursday of the home where the baby disappeared.

peace

The abysmal choices and questionable behavior of baby Lisa’s mom and dad have left them exposed. One result of their failure to eliminate themselves as suspects in baby Lisa’s disappearance is that her parents are being tried and convicted in the court of public opinion
The FBI, who has been involved since the beginning .........written protocol and agents that are specifically trained in missing child investigations..........it would be counterproductive and reflect badly on the agency to force blame on innocent and suffering parents.


theklaasact.blogspot.com...#!/2011/10/baby-lisa-and-loss-of-urgency.html

Marc Klaas, father of Polly Klaas, stolen from her home at night. Marc endured hours and hours of interviewing and never ever was not available . His insight is more important than any of us who've commented on this case to date on this site.

Mornin', team.

Interesting again, getting caught up on everyone's thoughts and theories. Not much in the news here locally this morning.

The latest update regarding the postponed media tour:

Short said the reasoning behind the postponement was that everyone involved need a "rest" until next week.

The walk through and press conference scheduled for Thursday and Friday have been postponed until next week.

Short asks all Kansas City residents to help us find baby Lisa.

A "rest"? With a child missing? A "rest"? Yeah, I bet they want to "rest"! I think this bodes very badly for hope...they have given up, clearly. Or the mystery is solved, and the media is still ripe for exploitation.

In following this thread and the various points of view, I have come to a few thoughts, to wit:

The police are not "villifying" anyone. They are pretty close-mouthed about the whole thing. It's the media and the parents themselves who are giving the impression that they are giving.

This "blood curdling scream" would certainly need to be verified, and should have been investigated. But just because someone typed a comment to a news story that their neighbor called it in, does NOT make it true. Would that person not have called the news themselves? In order to help find Lisa? I call bovine-crap on that one.

I don't see how the police are to blame for "incompetence"; we do not have enough info from them to make that assertion. Apart from the amber alert's misinfo and its brevity, where certainly Dav1d makes a good point that the abductor could be hundreds of miles away by the time the alert was issued, we really don't know what they know, what they've done, who they've spoken to or not.

And here's a new "scenario" that occurred to me, in light of all the possibilities we have presented and either left open for speculation or discarded on grounds of evidence to the contrary:

FACTS: Deborah was the adult responsible for those children that night. She went to get her refreshments before Daddy left for work. She bought baby wipes.

Q: Where are those baby wipes now? Are they in the home, where she left them, say, next to the "missing" cell phones? Or are they gone?

FACT: Deborah drank herself into a stupor. If she doesn't remember if she blacked out or not, then she BLACKED OUT. That's the whole point. You don't REMEMBER what happened. And it's not "common" like she portrayed it in that interview something to the effect of "well, yeah, whenever anyone drinks, you know, sure, it's possible".

Q: Why did she decide to drink so much that she would FAIL to remember what happened the night before?

Perhaps, just perhaps, it was planned. She bought the wipes to give to whomever was taking Lisa, in some sort of twisted "nurturing" gesture. She herself turned on the lights, opened the door, and handed the baby over. But, she doesn't remember, because...well, she chose to dope herself in order to erase her memory of the event.

I know this is far-fetched and quite alarming in theory, but what else is there to go on? No baby. No witnesses (except the boys). No phones. And she was the one who looks "INCOMPETENT" to care for those kids.

No tips or clues that have panned out except that she was willingly drunk and neglectful in her responsibility to be the adult in charge.

Oh, and btw, that "pentagram" tagged in the storm drain is NOT a "symbol of satanic worship" or whatever bollocks that idiot reporter said. Gimme a break, media!! Talk about ignorance and spreading disinfo!

Originally posted by schmae
reply to post by Dav1d

 

David, I hear you loud and clear and I agree with you on a lot of what you've said. I want to still believe the police ( majority of them, of course there are bad apples in any bunch) are the good guys in this story. You say i f you can figure this out, why can't they ? the police? Perhaps they've already answered all of our questions and more and they are just not revealing to us what they know. I have NO PROBLEM with police withholding important information while a case is ongoing. I do have a big problem with them giving FALSE information. So far, until the discovery of Lisa, dead or alive , there is no way to know if there has been FALSO info given by police, right?

I would say wrong. [url=http://www.ncmec.org/missingkids/servlet/PubCaseSearchServlet?act=viewChildDetail&caseNum=1180911&orgPrefix=NCMC&seqNum=1&caseLang=en_US&searchLa ng=en_US]> click here

reply to post by wildtimes

Morning to you too...

I read your post and if you can hear it from there I'm applauding. Level heads and good insight from you and Schmae, David, Crappie and Twilight, Michelle - we offset each other just enough to really see this whole case in a 'well rounded' way. It makes not only for good reading but good information.

I wish I could say I didn't but I have to agree with what you posted - this unscheduled 'rest' is the white flag of surrender. They're giving up hope. I wish I could say I still have some. I'm trying, but the barrel bottom is getting pretty thin from scraping.

Hang in there everyone.

peace

reply to post by wildtimes

Oh, and btw, that "pentagram" tagged in the storm drain is NOT a "symbol of satanic worship" or whatever bollocks that idiot reporter said. Gimme a break, media!! Talk about ignorance and spreading disinfo!

So what is it a symbol of?

Perhaps, just perhaps, it was planned. She bought the wipes to give to whomever was taking Lisa, in some sort of twisted "nurturing" gesture. She herself turned on the lights, opened the door, and handed the baby over. But, she doesn't remember, because...well, she chose to dope herself in order to erase her memory of the event. I know this is far-fetched and quite alarming in theory, but what else is there to go on? No baby. No witnesses (except the boys). No phones. And she was the one who looks "INCOMPETENT" to care for those kids.

Where else is there to go?? wow.. You have some pretty far fetched accusations there.....because you think there is no where to go.

No doubt she rendered herself incompetent to take care of the kids...but now its all part of an elaborate plan?

How's this for insight... anyone who is so adamant at trying to put this mom into some baby selling scheme may just be trying to point the finger away from their own guilt..

I know.. way over the top... but it could be possible..after all it makes sense.. though I am saying it in jest.

reply to post by wildtimes


''FACTS: Deborah was the adult responsible for those children that night. She went to get her refreshments before Daddy left for work. She bought baby wipes.

Q: Where are those baby wipes now? Are they in the home, where she left them, say, next to the "missing" cell phones? Or are they gone? ''


WOW,, good thinking. I'd never thought of that. I did notice though , when mom left the store with the wine is video of her smiling. She looks so carefree and happy at that moment, I cannot imagine that A) she was planning on killing or givign away her baby later that evening or B) she had already done it and was drinking to forget it . If she is smiling like that and already planned something or done something so evil, then she is indeed SICK.

reply to post by gabby2011

So what is it a symbol of?

It's a symbol of the elements: Spirit, Earth, Water, Fire, Air. It is used in some neo-pagan Wiccan rituals to ask assistance from the Elementals in achieving a goal, and the very first RULE of those who follow that spirituality is

"If it harm none, do as you will."

And what's more, the people who use that symbol, oriented with the point UP, don't even believe in "Satan."

Look it up, gabby.en.wikipedia.org...

It's an ANCIENT spiritual symbol, has been used by numerous traditions all over the globe.
The Satanic perversion is just that -- a perversion, with the point aiming downward rather than up (among other things). And yes, Wicca is a pretty common practice here. If it was applied by a Wiccan, it would have been during a ceremony for HELPING someone.

No doubt she rendered herself incompetent to take care of the kids...but now its all part of an elaborate plan?

How's this for insight... anyone who is so adamant at trying to put this mom into some baby selling scheme may just be trying to point the finger away from their own guilt..

Jest, eh?

Yeah, maybe it WAS all part of an elaborate plan...just WHAT is your problem with me, gabby??
I am a writer, I am a thinker, and I enjoy imagining scenarios...it's what writers do. We come up with ideas, and then we go with them.
For crying out loud!
What is YOUR explanation? Huh??
You seem to be kinda bent on criticizing the people who are exploring what is for now a mystery -- the disappearance of a baby -- rather than contributing to SOLVING it.

BORE ing...
I'm going back to yesterday's stance now of not reading your posts. I would suggest you don't read mine either, then you won't get so upset. But then, any suggestion I make is somehow evil and calculated and intent on accusing, I know, so .... never mind.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by gabby2011

 

So what is it a symbol of?

It's a symbol of the elements: Spirit, Earth, Water, Fire, Air. It is used in some neo-pagan Wiccan rituals to ask assistance from the Elementals in achieving a goal, and the very first RULE of those who follow that spirituality is

"If it harm none, do as you will."

And what's more, the people who use that symbol, oriented with the point UP, don't even believe in "Satan."

Look it up, gabby.en.wikipedia.org...

It's an ANCIENT spiritual symbol, has been used by numerous traditions all over the globe.
The Satanic perversion is just that -- a perversion, with the point aiming downward rather than up (among other things). And yes, Wicca is a pretty common practice here. If it was applied by a Wiccan, it would have been during a ceremony for HELPING someone.

ahhh..I see.. we should assume that the symbol was used in trying to "help" someone...

..while we entertain thoughts the mother is guilty of giving her baby away.. because there really is no where else to go with the story.?