A new and intriguing theory of where UFOs may originate from, and return to...

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Originally posted by MasterOfSparkz
These matters are SIMPLE Sir. You see my post. You read the document. You respond within context to the document. ALL ELSE IS OFF TOPIC. That INCLUDES my opinion which is as meaningful to the initial facts within this consideration as, you guessed it, "guano". Just ask the "expert" posters around these parts.

Your opinions are not off topic, nor are mine. This is where you are wrong.
May I suggest meditation, you really seem rattled about something so trivial.
Hope you have a great night.

Originally posted by cluckerspud

Originally posted by MasterOfSparkz
These matters are SIMPLE Sir. You see my post. You read the document. You respond within context to the document. ALL ELSE IS OFF TOPIC. That INCLUDES my opinion which is as meaningful to the initial facts within this consideration as, you guessed it, "guano". Just ask the "expert" posters around these parts.

Your opinions are not off topic, nor are mine. This is where you are wrong.
May I suggest meditation, you really seem rattled about something so trivial.
Hope you have a great night.

Still in yet, not one single reference to the posted document, the ONLY REAL meat or meaning within the OP. So typical.

You want my opinion, here's my opinion. I spent about three hours today reading and learning in ever so embryonic increments, about Plasma. That being as a result of inspirational motivation garnered via reading these hypothetical and extremely intriguing topics that I know so very little about. I am happy to admit my ignorance, however, I am honestly even happier when I overcome some of it as a result of my own sincere synaptic effort.

IMO, this is PROOF that considering such things as this intriguing conjecture bound hypothesis based on a sincere surface level interest is exceptionally worthwhile. Peace/Out/MOS

In 1911, the automatic telephone saw the light of day, as did a glider created by a pair of brothers named Wright.

100 years later, we have shuttles and space stations, spacecraft which have visited planets in our solar system, can visit the depths of the oceans, and have made amazing discoveries, including the nature of the universe, including dark matter, black holes, and quantum physics. We have phone devices we can carry in a shirt pocket, which can play music, movies, send email and open computer files.

100 years is a small pinprick in time. It's nothing. We've advanced that much in a mere 100 years. That's a whole lot of advancement. And theories predict our advancement will accelerate, the more we learn and create. So... while it's possible alien travelers may indeed be dimensional.. I see NO reason they can't be from the further recesses of our universe, either. Even a civilization a mere 1000 years advanced over us, would probably have come to grips to types of travel we haven't even considered yet, and would marvel over.

So... this is a theory, but I don't give it more weight than traveler's from other planets in other solar systems. The latter seems actually a bit more likely to me.

When I first starting reading the OP's link, I thought, "same ole stuff." Glad I kept reading. Super interesting stuff! Star and Flag for you OP! Right up there with String Theory!

The idea of a dark plasma ocean around the planet make sense to me. It explains all the "critter" activities seen in the upper atmosphere shuttle missions. If people have a very real, physical space, or aura, around them. Why not other bodies, even groups of bodies like schools of fish that move as one?

Why do Christians always see Jesus and Mary, while Buddists see Buddah, Hindus see their gods, etc.? Their own alter projection. Of course! Even group projections, as a revival meeting or a Greatful Dead concert. This theory can account for astral projection, telekenisis and poltergiest and lingering spirits.

I can see how a dark plasma field could form around populations which provides an envelope of belonging that encourages cultural growth.

As far as dimensions, my theory is that of the nature of a rainbow. We are only able to see visible light, but other light exists outside of our visual range. I believe that dimensions tier upon each other in one reality that are all a part of the whole. Just as we look to the tiny building blocks to build the whole.

I think that in the future we will learn that empty space is not a part of the problem of space travel.

Good Op and good thread its a shame it denegerated a bit in some parts, but I guess people are passionate about Aliens and their origins...thanks

Originally posted by MasterOfSparkz
Don't try that reverse, guilt based, head game BS with me chicken man. You DID NOT ask me one REAL question. What you did however is to chime in and drop the typical "anti intelligent imagination based pseudo skeptic's thread killin' boat anchor" like some attention staved, "Excuse me, I have a routine to play" typical pseudo skeptical thug at a 5 year old's pool party. All this in an effort to thwart self awareness of your own inability to grasp the importance of shedding yourself and the rest of the empirical gang, a case of severely constipated thinking as related to these matters. This being wherein you repeatedly badger those who don't have the specific technical knowledge that the accredited author has that they are presenting, when we further attempt to consider these matters within an intelligent, hypothesis based, surface level (look up the word aesthetic please) discussion. Did I miss anything?

Wow! What a tirade!

All we've asked is why you state/believe one is more probable than the other. You made that comment not us. Now you are at a loss to give us an acceptable rationale so you attack the member with ad homonyms instead of defending the statements. Not cool!

IRM

Originally posted by MasterOfSparkz

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I will be taking a permanent break from this JOKE. Goodbye.

"To prejudge other men's notions before we have looked into them is not to show their darkness but to put out our own eyes" ~ John Locke

Originally posted by MathematicalPhysicist
It does not matter if they are thousands or millions of years advanced. The energy requirement and the resources needed to accomplish interstellar travel remains constant. It is quite delusional to accept the notion that Aliens are partaking in multiple round trips of interstellar travel just to abduct humans and perform lewd experiments.

First of all I said nothing about interstellar ships coming to perform lewd experiments on humans.

Originally posted by MathematicalPhysicist

Originally posted by PimanderStuck in the box thinking. Do you really think out of date physics is the limiting factor in what is possible? BS alert!
You do not KNOW that. Pure speculation.

Inference ≠ speculation. Our understanding of the physical world may not be complete or even close to it, but it has been consistent thus far. **snip** We have plenty of experimental evidence for the current laws of physics.

If you have a knowledge of mathematical physics you would be well aware of the fact that faster than light travel and teleportation (demonstrated years ago) appear to be consistent with the laws of physics.

Bouwmeester, D (1996). Experimental quantum teleportation. Nature 390, 575-579.

Miguel Alcubierre (1994) The warp drive: hyper-fast travel within general relativity. Class. Quantum Grav. 11 L73

Next we have an article by yet another scientist where implications are discussed.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/27708aa582cd.gif[/atsimg]
adsbit.harvard.edu...

As for you comments about "belief" in inter-dimensional beings what I said was:

Originally posted by Pimander
Although the inter-dimensional stuff and plasma critters explain many UFO sightings, some of the material out there seems to indicate a very physical presence.

I should have qualified that with could explain many UFO sightings. However, mine was also an "inference". There is no doubt whatever that the UFO phenomena is real. Some of the characteristics of UFOs are difficult to explain without the concept of interdimensionality. We also know that parallel universes and other dimensions exist so this is not simply idle fancy like you weakly attempt to portray.

Tegmark (2003). Parallel Universes. SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN May, 2004

Basically your inference is pseudo-skeptical, pseudo-scientific nonsense.

In what way would you consider it to be scientific to not even consider these possibilities?

Originally posted by MasterOfSparkzNo, it DOES NOT. Science has proved itself far too revisionary for that bucket to even begin to hold water. No logic contained in that statement.

My statement is completely logical. Just because you say it is not, does not mean so. Delusions of grandeur. Science is and will always be much more logical and concise than your inane fantasies.

Originally posted by MasterOfSparkzI have never once claiming anything of the sort. That is a bold faced lie. Quote me where I have.

Originally posted by MasterOfSparkzFor many years now (long before I had ever heard the name Mac Tonnies) I have felt a stronger tug from the native environment's extratemporal or interdimensional hypothesis for the possibility of where UFOs originate. It just always made a lot more sense when you eliminate the distance factor.

In your last sentence, it is enough to infer that you believe that ET's are visiting Earth and your postulation is that their travel is not interstellar but rather inter-dimensional. Convenient amnesa?

Originally posted by MasterOfSparkzsee above: (you're mind is so rusty friend. It's like it barely works...put a little oil on those cogs man! Omega 3 works wonders!)

Personal attacks do not help your argument. I suggest you stick with the facts or humbly state that you haven't any to backup your UFO fantasy.

Originally posted by MasterOfSparkzMany aspects of Einsteins theory of relativity are being scrapped by the day Sir. For you to not know or be aware of as much speaks volumes for your true credibility. Contemporary Physics should not be likened to a "classic car show" Sir. Stick with the concept of NOW if you are going to draw on scientific understanding and practice.

I don't do research in general relativity so I don't read many peer-reviewed articles on it. Do you mind linking me to any, seeing as you seem to be quite the expert on it?

Originally posted by MasterOfSparkzWe are not however, that's because we are intelligently speculating about matters we don't make claims that we know all about. Very sad Sir. Lets get that thing upstairs online and WORKING!

This is not "intelligently" speculating. This is delusional fantasizing of the believer and foolishly comparing your fantasies to science, then proceeding to personally attack any sceptic who challenges your delusions instead of presenting your argument and supplementing it with facts. Is that really too much to ask for? I guess it is with the "believers".

Also, why do "believers" seem to love to compare their delusions and beliefs in the ET phenomena to experimentally proven, scientific facts? There is as much evidence for ET's as there is for trolls, fairies, pixies, and goblins.

Originally posted by MasterOfSparkzSee above: (you're almost in the hopeless category Sir, but I'll remain vigilant in the interest of you coming up to speed with respect for your ability to COMPREHEND WHAT I HAVE WRITTEN.) Get with it man! To entertain and discuss a hypothesis is NOT an indication that one "believes" in anything. Are you honestly not aware that the true test of an intelligent mind is to hold and examine two completely conflicting ideas simultaneously?

You still do not understand, which is expected. Just because I do not accept your nonsensical fantasies nor entertain them does not indicate that I am not comprehending what you are saying. There is not a single evidence of proof that extraterrestrial beings are visiting here, therefore, you have no argument and are just spewing hogwash as you go along, attempting to demean anybody who does not accept your delusions.

If I were to claim that the global elite have a secret floating city built on Jupiter to run to after an alien invasion, you'd take me at complete face value and not ask any evidence, wouldn't you?

Originally posted by MathematicalPhysicist
There is not a single evidence of proof that extraterrestrial beings are visiting here, therefore, you have no argument and are just spewing hogwash as you go along, attempting to demean anybody who does not accept your delusions.

No, there isn't proof that you are privy to. That does not mean none exists. There is lots of evidence of a cover up of "something". Also you do not know whether the ETH or EDH are correct yourself. Does that make you deluded to try to portray anyone else as deluded for simply saying, " I have felt a stronger tug from the native environment's extratemporal or interdimensional hypothesis for the possibility of where UFOs originate." www.abovetopsecret.com...

Furthermore it is you who is spewing hogwash. Discussing a hypothesis is a legitimate activity on a discussion board. In fact it is a legitimate activity for two scientists to discuss a hypothesis for which there is no proof. What do you think the point of science is? It certainly isn't to proclaim that someone is deluded for considering hypotheses that have been frequently discussed in the scientific literature!

If you really are interested in mathematical physics then you need to start to act more like a scientist. Being skeptical is a perfectly reasonable position. However, consideration of competing hypotheses and looking at the available evidence is about as noble as it gets when considering an unknown like aliens and UFOs. If you don't like people to do it, I'd recommend avoiding the UFO and aliens forum in future.

Originally posted by Pimander
No, there isn't proof that you are privy to. That does not mean none exists. There is lots of evidence of a cover up of "something". Also you do not know whether the ETH or EDH are correct yourself. Does that make you deluded to try to portray anyone else as deluded for simply saying, " I have felt a stronger tug from the native environment's extratemporal or interdimensional hypothesis for the possibility of where UFOs originate." www.abovetopsecret.com...

That premise is quite ridiculous. Let's go back to the floating city in Jupiter that belongs to the global elite that I mentioned earlier. I can easily say there is no evidence because NASA is owned by the global elite, and that there is a cover-up. Would most rational minded people take my statements at face-value and not ask for evidence? Yes, absence of evidence does not imply evidence of absence, but we should not take statements with no evidence at face-value.

Originally posted by PimanderFurthermore it is you who is spewing hogwash. Discussing a hypothesis is a legitimate activity on a discussion board. In fact it is a legitimate activity for two scientists to discuss a hypothesis for which there is no proof. What do you think the point of science is? It certainly isn't to proclaim that someone is deluded for considering hypotheses that have been frequently discussed in the scientific literature!

I did not say speculation is wrong and delusion, speculation is definitely needed. However, asserting that your speculation is more substantial without any form of evidence or proof than scientifically established theories is, to put it bluntly, delusional. I would have no problem if he simply stated he was speculating and has no evidence, but comparing your speculation to scientifically verified facts of the physical world is the problem.

Originally posted by PimanderIf you really are interested in mathematical physics then you need to start to act more like a scientist. Being skeptical is a perfectly reasonable position. However, consideration of competing hypotheses and looking at the available evidence is about as noble as it gets when considering an unknown like aliens and UFOs. If you don't like people to do it, I'd recommend avoiding the UFO and aliens forum in future.

edit on 15/7/11 by Pimander because: typo

Mind linking me to any official links of UFO's that are believed to be intelligently controlled craft by beings not originating from this planet? I'd be very interested, as the reports I have read before in which the UFO cannot be explained by conventional means were dismissed due to insufficient information. I do, however, accept the possible fact that the 5% UFO's that cannot be identified are either military projects or natural phenomena. The alien explanation is only accepted by questionable eye-witnesses, ufologists, and the "believer" that takes everything at face-value.

Originally posted by Pimander
First of all I said nothing about interstellar ships coming to perform lewd experiments on humans.

Didn't say you did, my post was addressing the typical beliefs held by ufologists and believers.

Originally posted by PimanderIf you have a knowledge of mathematical physics you would be well aware of the fact that faster than light travel and teleportation (demonstrated years ago) appear to be consistent with the laws of physics.

Well, firstly, travel via space-time bending is technically not faster than the speed of light, but simply taking a shortcut. While you may traverse greater distances in a shorter time than light can reach there conventionally, no object in the known universe, according to our observations, can exceed the speed limit of 3E8 m/s. Hypothetically, if you were to generate a wormhole, light would still outrun you to your destination using the same wormhole. Also, for teleportation, yes we have successfully teleported particles. But, did you not know that we destroy them before reconstructing them in their desired destination? So, assuming that you do have one of those devices from science-fiction that contradict all of our laws of energy conservation and thermodynamics, that allow you to teleport to any location in the known universe. By quantum teleportation, since you would be destroyed, the copy generated in the desired location will not exactly be "you".

Originally posted by PimanderAs for you comments about "belief" in inter-dimensional beings what I said was:
I should have qualified that with could explain many UFO sightings. However, mine was also an "inference". There is no doubt whatever that the UFO phenomena is real. Some of the characteristics of UFOs are difficult to explain without the concept of interdimensionality. We also know that parallel universes and other dimensions exist so this is not simply idle fancy like you weakly attempt to portray.

You clearly have a lack of understanding of dimensional reality. The existence of alternate dimensions does not imply that travel between them is completely possible. The nature of this is all theoretical, although the math seems to be consistent. However, it is also accepted that if even something as insignificant as a particle were to somehow "escape" into a different universe, ours would simply collapse due to our universe "trying" to compensate for that loss in matter.

Originally posted by PimanderBasically your inference is pseudo-skeptical, pseudo-scientific nonsense.

That is a matter of subjective opinion, and not objective rationality. All you did was ambiguously quote numerous sources that state quantum teleportation and the existence of alternate universes is possible, but have never mentioned the real-world implications (engineering possibilities) of such discoveries.

Originally posted by PimanderIn what way would you consider it to be scientific to not even consider these possibilities?

edit on 15/7/11 by Pimander because: That was my thousandth post. No cheque then???

Well, first of all, sustained inter-dimensional travel contradicts the mathematics. As for quantum teleportation, though it may be possible by transporting materials, human teleportation will simply never be practically possible as it essentially kills them before "recreating" them at the desired destination.

According to Stanton Friedman (I know his reputation was tarnished by the whole MJ12 thing, but the physics seem solid enough), if a craft were to leave Earth at a constant acceleration of just ONE g, it would reach 99% light speed in roughly a year. This would make local travel (to stars such as Proxima Centauri- our closet solar neighbour), not impossibly long. Who's to say they haven't already travelled the massive distance over the years, and set up way-stations on the arse of the moon, or in the asteroid belt?
Friedman proposes that ET travel between stars in the "cigar-shaped craft". These then position themselves in orbit, and despatch the smaller, saucer-shaped objects, or reconnaissance craft. That would explain why the larger, cigar-shaped objects are usually observed at higher altitudes, whilst the smaller craft flit about in the atmosphere, doing God knows what! I quite like this hypothesis. Anyhoo, just putting it out there...

Originally posted by MathematicalPhysicist
Well, first of all, sustained inter-dimensional travel contradicts the mathematics. As for quantum teleportation, though it may be possible by transporting materials, human teleportation will simply never be practically possible as it essentially kills them before "recreating" them at the desired destination.

It seems that "abductees" are transported through dimensions and they come back alive. Either that or "aliens" transport to here from other dimensions. Or maybe they meet in the middle somewhere? Whatever the case, I personally think it's probably easier, (with the right know-how) to travel between dimensions, or to merge dimensions, than to travel in space.

We just don't have that know-how, at least we think we don't. Though it wouldn't surprise me to learn that some people do have the knowledge already. Maybe there are a few great musicians who can play them super-strings.


You'll usually find me outside the box.

reply to post by MathematicalPhysicist

I won't continue to argue with the finer points as we don't know who is right. I think you missed mine so what I will do is hint at why I think you should be more open-minded about the possibility of aliens visiting Earth. I'll go for the maths angle as you have user-name mathematicalphysicist. Hopefullly I'm talking your language.

Within the galactic habitable zone the average age of the millions of stars potentially suitable for harbouring life is 1,000,000,000 years older that our sun (some are much older). Lets say a civilisation started in one of those star systems at, like us, roughly the age of our sun. If still around, that civilisation is likely to be 1 trillion years more advanced than us.... A trillion years!

See Deardoff et al. Inflation-Theory Implications for Extraterrestrial Visitation. Journal for the British Interplanetary Society Vol. 58, pp. 43-50, 2005. www.ufoskeptic.org... or www.scribd.com... or www.mountbaldy.com...

Even if only a single civilisation has survived that long, how can we, with our primitive science, even begin to comprehend what would be possible for them? We have gone from horses and carts to (at least) sending probes to every major planet we know of in the Solar System in 100 years.

Furthermore, Eric Jones of Los Alamos National Laboratory, calculated that a civilisation capable of reaching velocities of only a tenth the speed of light, "a filling time (for the galaxy) on the order of (only) 60 million years is predicted." So if there is one, they probably know all about us and have chosen not to reveal themselves to the masses.

See Jones. Discrete calculations of interstellar migration and settlement. Icarus, vol. 46, June 1981. adsabs.harvard.edu... or www.sciencedirect.com...

I'm not offering this as proof of anything. I am simply suggesting we would be foolish not to keep an open mind about this.

Finally, before you try to give the impression that a scientist should not take these ideas seriously, I am not alone. A list of doctorates for members of MUFON (Mutual UFO Network) included 127 physical sciences, 120 medical, 43 biological and 22 Earth Sciences.

Think about it.... Open your mind. Please.

Generally speaking, it has been proposed that plasma is thought to be the 4th kind of matter, right?; Solids, liquids, gases, and plasmas. To my knowledge, there are no living singular solids, liquids, and gases. Oxygen, methane, or hydrogen don't form intelligent lifeforms in and of themselves. Nor would they if you throw some iron and gold into the mix. Life is a conglomeration of elements, including solids, liquids, AND gases. All together. Given this, I'm having a hard time accepting the idea that plasma creatures exist. After all, it is just one state of matter.

On the otherhand, it seems more probable that plasmas may be another addition to the mix in the matrix of possible "life", but those "critters" would still need other material in all other states of matter to exist. But what do I know?!

So lets recap what we have to work with now, according to this theory. We have matter. Energy. Dark matter. Dark energy.
What's next?
Crooked/straight matter and energy?
Hyper/hypo matter and energy?
These things keep getting more convoluted every generation it seems.


I'm joking, well maybe not... Ok, just a little. But as Maxwell may have said if he were here today, "The proofs of these theories only work to conserve appearances."

On a slightly differernt note, I've seen some of these crafts overhead, close up and personal. I've had an experience or two And I'm in the camp of knowers/experiencers (not believers) that this stuff is very real. I use my experiences as a benchmark for other's claims, as well as our knowledge of the physical universe,(experimental, not too much stock in theoretical). But I don't just accept anything that's thrown at me, (because I will throw it back). When you have your own experiences, well, you just can't go back to a position of denial without doubting everything you've ever experienced throughout your entire life, including that you're even sitting there typing to random people across the world in a fantasy you call "the internet". But, yes, some of what I've seen (and my wife at other times) does seem to exhibit some kind of extradimensional mobility.