All you Californian public employees please justify your pay & benifits.

I wonder what all these oh so qualified public employees actually consider what they might have to do if (and more likely when) the state must file bankruptcy and all these union contracts are void.

Doesn't this keep you up at night? Even a little?

What about the fact that more and more companies large and small are fleeing the state because of their crushing taxes that produce not services that they can use but are paying fat pensions and blaoted salaries of people with a far too grandiose view of themselves.

It is like watching a host being bled dry by parasites that don't realise that if the host dies so do they.

Ignoring how absurd some of the figures the OP sites are, what's wrong with public sector employees earning a livable wage?

When people actually earn a reasonable middle class income, they participate in the economy, creating even more jobs. This is GOOD for the ECONOMY.

reply to post by incrediblelousminds


Because they don't do anything that 'makes more money than they earn.' the first thing you learn in economics.

Why should anyone pay for something like that?
Try to sell that as a stock and look at your rating.
Yet the citizens are being held up at gunpoint and being made to pay for service that they will not ever recieve.
And you argue their right to protest this.
Why would you protest this last?

Originally posted by ..5..
reply to post by incrediblelousminds

 

Because they don't do anything that 'makes more money than they earn.' the first thing you learn in economics.

Why should anyone pay for something like that?
Try to sell that as a stock and look at your rating.
Yet the citizens are being held up at gunpoint and being made to pay for service that they will not ever recieve.
And you argue their right to protest this.
Why would you protest this last?

For the life of me I am unable to discern what you are trying to say.

I am thinking perhaps there may be a connection between your irrational hatred for teachers and your inability to form a coherent sentence.

Originally posted by ..5..
nunya13 , Wildbob77
You didn’t answer, you are like a child with his hand in a cookie jar.
Here are some numbers for you. Justify them. What makes you so much more deserving than the private sector who actually make.
Unlike a company we have to purchase your substandard overpriced product. It’s not like we can boycott taxes.

Substandard? You have trouble getting through to 911? Your mail isn't coming every other day? The parks where your kids (or you) are playing are being kept up?

What's substandard here?

economix.blogs.nytimes.com...

Well, I mean the government doesn't employ people to say hello to you when you walk into Walmart or who ask you if you would like fries with that, so yeah, I guess when you average ALL private sector employees, the hourly is going to look a little low.

www.cato.org...

One way to assess whether overall public sector compensation is too high is to look at voluntary job quit rates. U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics data show that the average quit rate in the state and local workforce is just one-third the rate in the private sector. 5 That suggests that state and local pay is higher than needed to attract qualified workers.

So, CATO thinks that the fact that people do not quit frequently enough - i.e., they're happy with their jobs, is a sign that the pay is too high rather than, say, the quality of life is actually where it should be in a modern world.

Also, they're table 2 is wonderful, discussing the high percentage of Public sector employees with benefits. Ya think? What kind of benefits do you get as a small business owner or employee for a retail or customer service job...?

As far as healthcare, it's the size of the pool that makes it affordable, not some glut in the economy where they just want to pay for people's healthcare over and above. Let's think logical here, right? More people, less risk, less expense for better benefits...single payer is such a bad idea...ha!

www.telegraph.co.uk...

Same idea, the private sector includes some serious wage-slavery. It's only as high as it is because you are averaging that we CEO salaries.

humancapitaladviser.com...

Just as the markets are not the same,the jobs as well as the concentration of jobs are not the same across the sectors. Each sector has jobs of different types and levels,but they do not overlap perfectly. In other words,the concentration of a type of job is not the same when comparing both. Moreover,there are differences in compensation that are job specific based on the level of job and the unique market position relevant to the job. An example of this finding appears in

www.bloomberg.com...)

Linking to Bloomberg:

From 2006 to 2008, janitors working for the city earned an average $32,143, compared with $26,357 in local private firms; security guards got $35,423 versus $26,571 at private companies; and bus drivers made about $48,000 on the public payroll compared with about $36,000 at for-profit firms, the study said. Conversely, municipal workers with college and post- graduate degrees earn less than private-company workers, the study said.

So, a janitor receives a bit more dignified pay for the grunt labor he/she has to do, a bus driver (what would be the for-profit equivalent, a airport shuttle driver???) is also paid more, but then if you have a college degree, you get less.

www.denverpost.com...

In an economy where private-sector workers have seen layoffs, furloughs and cuts to their pay and benefits, Colorado state employees' jobs have remained relatively stable and their benefits — especially their pensions — have stayed comparatively generous. That's not to say state workers haven't taken hits in the recession. They have not gotten pay raises for the past three years, they were furloughed for eight days in fiscal year 2009-10 and the state has made them pay a greater share of their pension costs. And the state workforce has been diminished in some areas while workload has increased.

No brainer here. They've fared better because people still need to put out fires, clean up the municipal buildings, send their kids to school. Conversely, in a recession, you do not need to go to Starbucks, Olive Garden or buy a new car.

Also, furlough means "no pay".

jobs.aol.com...

Come on, we're talking about state and federal employees, not the politicians. Who cares what they make on the books, we all now where the real bread and butter is in being president, vice-president and speaker of the house...

www.usatoday.com...

Accountants, nurses, chemists, surveyors, cooks, clerks and janitors are among the wide range of jobs that get paid more on average in the federal government than in the private sector.

Obviously, because if you were an accountant, nurse, chemist and cook working for a private company there would be profits. Profits don't come out of thin air...I think the accountants could explain why they get more in a public job than in a private one...hmmm.

www.freshbusinessthinking.com...

One particular factor that has skewed pay in favour of the public sector has been the outsourcing of the lowest paid jobs from the public to the private sector, notably hospital cleaning staff and school caterers. When the lowest paid move from the public, the mean public sector wage is elevated whilst simultaneously depressing the private sector mean.

You're the one complaining, but this puts it in plain English that it is precisely the privatization of public sector jobs that helps skew the demographics.

cliftonchadwick.wordpress.com...
www.jeffjacoby.com...
seekingalpha.com...
www.jeffjacoby.com...

From Wikipedia on pensions:

Employment-based pensions (retirement plans) A retirement plan is an arrangement to provide people with an income during retirement when they are no longer earning a steady income from employment. Often retirement plans require both the employer and employee to contribute money to a fund during their employment in order to receive defined benefits upon retirement. It is a tax deferred savings vehicle that allows for the tax-free accumulation of a fund for later use as a retirement income. Funding can be provided in other ways, such as from labor unions, government agencies, or self-funded schemes. Pension plans are therefore a form of "deferred compensation". A SSAS is a type of employment-based Pension in the UK.

Often, but not always, does the "employer" (tax payers in the case of public sector jobs, right?) contribute:

On to Wisconsin and their luxurious pension benefits (since you didn't stick to California, I don't see why I have to):

http:// blogs.forbes.com/rickungar/2011/02/25/the-wisconsin-lie-exposed-taxpayers-actually-contribute-nothing-to-public-employee-pensions/

Gov. Scott Walker says he wants state workers covered by collective bargaining agreements to “contribute more” to their pension and health insurance plans. Accepting Gov. Walker’ s assertions as fact, and failing to check, creates the impression that somehow the workers are getting something extra, a gift from taxpayers. They are not. Out of every dollar that funds Wisconsin’ s pension and health insurance plans for state workers, 100 cents comes from the state workers.

The pension plan is the direct result of deferred compensation- money that employees would have been paid as cash salary but choose, instead, to have placed in the state operated pension fund where the money can be professionally invested (at a lower cost of management) for the future.

Once an employee retires, the state (i.e., you and I American Taxpayer) do not pay them anything. They receive those benefits from investments in large scale pools. So that someone working now, putting away his benefits into the pension fund, is actually (in the sense of "currently") contributing to a pool that he will not be using until he retires.

Expecting individuals to be experts at investing their retirement money in defined contribution plans — instead of pooling the money so professional investors can manage the money as is done in defined benefit plans — is not sound economics. The concept, at its most basic, is buying wholesale instead of retail. Wholesale is cheaper for the buyers. That is, it saves taxpayers money. The Wisconsin State Investment Board manages about $74.5 billion for an all-in cost of $224 million. That is a cost of about 30-cents per $100, which is good but not great. However it is far less than many defined contribution plans, where costs are often $1 or more per $100.”

So, you complain that benefits they pay into themselves are a burden on you the tax payer, when that simply is not true. The reality is that, in the case of Wisconsin, the state stole their pension fund and re-appropriated it to a different use (to cover their fiscal butts).

Basically, the argument is why a minority of our nation (public versus private sector jobs) in the public sector receive an average high pay. But there is no Joe Q. Public here who gets $39 in 'total compensation' per hour. Nor is there a Milton B. Private who is getting just $27/hr. The averages on the public side are more evenly distributed, whereas the private side's average comes from the $5.25/hr that 500,000 Milton B. Privates are making working the fields, frying up some burgers and bagging your groceries off set by the 500 CEOs in their towers making $100,000/hr.

There's your difference.

reply to post by ..5..


What services don't you receive?

I don't get your argument. I don't know your age and demographic, but I'm pretty sure you use the mail system, if anything at least once a year.

If there were an emergency, I'm pretty sure you'd get through to 911 and have a firefighter, ambulance or police at your door.

Of course, if you don't like the "pooling" effect of paying taxes for state/municipal services, we could have more scenarios like this one.

**Also, the elephant in the room: 50% of your taxes go to the wars.

reply to post by ..5..


Where the h$ll are you getting your figures from?? A known lying newspaper?!!!
I work for the state in a maximum security prison. Let me tell you, walk a day in my boots and
We'll see if you still have the same hate for the state employee!! How much pay do you
Think is adequate for us? After you have been stabbed, spit on, punched, gassed (when an inmate
Throws feces and urine on your face), hits placed on your children, you might change your
Mind.
Oohhh! I have an idea...how about stopping the ridiculous medical care the
Inmates get??!!!! I have one in my unit who is serving a double life
Sentence (he will never get out) he currently gets estrogen shots once a week at
$1200 a shot because he has "gender issues" and wants to be a girl!! Why the
He#l is the state paying for a double murderer to grow man boobs??!!!!!!!!!
I'm just gonna stop now cause I'm too pissed off.

Evelspice, Sphota, and whoever else


Why do Texas and the most other states do the same job for a third of the cost per prisoner? Why does California have the highest paid employees and still have just average infrastructure? Not that I would ever call it but 911 and the aforementioned examples work just as well in other states for a lower cost.

Since the 1980's our population has doubled (the tax bse hs doubled nd yet the roadspace has increased by under 10% (I think the figure is around 8%).

Don't get me started on how much education system sucks up.

reply to post by ..5..


Because a teacher can give me knowledge without yelling and screaming at me.

They don't degrade me.

And well frankly, the military gets enough of our money as it is.

If they fail to be efficient with it then that is their own problem.

Sounds like somebody's butt is sore over picking the wrong career.

Tough luck

Teachers, fire fighters, and police are essential to our society, but the folks at the California Department of Child Support Services should be replaced by machines. In the past, the fine folks at CDSS have proven unable to credit my account, depsite the funds being automatically garnished each month from my VA compensation. When called to ask what happened, they have proven unable to accept that payment was made and that they have messed up. Late fees, suspended licenses, passports and other legal woes follow, and after their mistakes are established as fact, the agency does nothing to help fix what they cause. (ie, Extra fees still have to be paid to reinstate a suspended license or passport, to remove leins place on real property, and the late fees charged by CDSS.)

Regardless of how much, or how little they are paid, this agency is certainly overpaid.

As a small business owner in a nearby county I do understand very well where the OP is coming from.
Every other person in the public sector has their hand out for this fee, that tax, this license, that form this document, and 'all' of them cost money and time just so someone can sit at a desk at our expense and push paper which doesn't do anything to raise you bottom line but does cost both time and money.

What about our right not to be hasseled over trivial things.
Has anyone actually read that OSHA poster? Has it made your life better? What would you rather have, several works of art, or the required posters which a ninth grader could have memorized in half an hour. IMHO that is why most break rooms are depressing as all get out.

Why 'should' the servants make more than the masters?

While I do support unions this is not pre WWII where you are fighting for safety, decent pay and to be treated like a human beings I really think that with all the cell phones think we have that under control.
The union leaders at least in this state act more like the mafia.
I suppose it is a fine line.

reply to post by ..5..


There are many reasons as to why California's cost per inmate is so high. Medical care is the number one reason.
CDCr's health care bill is over 1 BILLION dollars per year!!!

What the state needs is a serious investigation into inmate medical care. I am not talking about issues like colds, broken bones, minor cuts and injuries you might see at an ER. I want to know how the state can justify the outrageous medical procedures and mental health treatment inmates can receive?!! This is why it costs so much money to run a prison. I will get into all the other privileges later....

I am writing this from my personal observations in working at a maximum security male prison in California's central valley. Any numeric figures added were told to me by medical staff. The following events all happened and I have not embellished anything.

Inmate "Pico" was shot in the knee 20 years ago running from the police dept. Pico has been the lead janitor in my unit for the last few years and incarcerated for the last 19. His right knee does not bend as it should due to his injury. The state just recently gave Pico a full knee replacement.

Inmate "Scotty" is serving two life sentences for a double murder. When he entered the prison system, he was a stalky hairy biker looking guy (kinda like Sr on American Chopper). Now Scotty is about 100 lbs lighter, clean shaven all over, and wants to be a girl. He told this to one of the many psychologists at the prison. Scotty now recieves a weekly estrogen shot and has man boobs!! One of the medical staff also tried to get him a wig!!!!!

Inmate "Melling" said he had a stomach ache one day and was taken to a hospital outside of our prison.( We have a mini hospital inside the prison with 17 beds, ER rooms, X-ray, MRI, etc. State paid Dr.'s do not like to treat inmates because of complaints....more on this later) The hospital in the little town where the hospital is located survives because of the inmate visits. This hospital and its wonderful staff keep Melling there for over 1 YEAR!!!! That's right, ONE YEAR, at a cost of more than a million dollars to the state!! There was and still is nothing wrong with Melling!! I once asked him how he could stand to be in the hospital for such a long period of time (one leg and one arm are always chained to the bed), he stated, "Why not? I have cable TV here, all the dope I want, and they wait on me hand and foot" I still can't believe the state just goes right along with all of this!

Inmate "Ramone" is serving a life sentence for child molestation. He is a very old man. He also has dementia and is bed ridden. Ramone falls out of his bed one night and fractures his hip. He is taken to the same hospital that Melling is at. Ramone is at the hospital for about two months when Dr.'s decide to give him a full hip replacement. He dies of old age two weeks later.

These are just a few examples of wasted money in my opinion. I'm sure not everyone will agree with me.
This hospital recently bought all new flat screen tv's for the inmate wing, so buisness is great!

Now I mentioned the Dr.'s at the prison did not like to treat the inmates. These are state employed physicians making over $25,000 per month. This is because of the "602 inmate complaint form" Inmates can complain about anything.....and they do! When a Dr. gets enough complaints, there is a "black mark" on his record. Or so I have been told by medical staff. It doesn't matter if the claim is legitimate or not. (Which seems kinda stupid to me) I have seen inmates taken to the outside hospitals for stomach aches, minor cuts, X-rays( did I mention we have an X-ray machine?) and all sorts of other imaginary conditions.

There is another medical issue also, mental health.....but that's a whole other story!

**I want to update one of my comments. I learned recently from a nice little commercial by the postal workers' union that stamps and postage fund the mail system completely, so actually taxes do not go to that.

reply to post by VforVendettea


You assume that things will just stay the way they are (regarding safety, minimum wages, work loads, etc.) upon the dismantling of unions and watch-dog orgs like OSHA?

There are lobbyists working as we speak to weaken or otherwise dismantle those laws, so the minute they become ineffective or null and void, you can bet that some corporation or other will take advantage of every new deregulated aspect...every single one. Why? Because they were originally implemented for a purpose because there was someone doing something objectionable and the rules had to change or come into their own. There must have been a profit motive, people don't generally threaten public safety or the safety and welfare of their workers willy-nilly. So, we can assume that those same profit-motives are still there, bubbling under the surface, just waiting for those laws to disappear and those regulations to ease up.


Hassle? A zoning permit was what kept this or that chemical out of a residential neighborhood. A building permit is what led to better safety rules regarding storm-proof glass and the like. You could go on and on with examples.

Originally posted by ..5..
Why should you be paid a penny more than the equivalent position in the armed forces?

When my employer starts to pay for my housing and my meals, we'll talk. Until then........

reply to post by ..5..


Because it's all privatized? Here's the problem with private prisons:

Judges getting kick-backs to send kids to jail

And this sad news, regarding the same scandal and focusing on the economy specifically:

The Wall Street Journal reports that "[p]rison companies are preparing for a wave of new business as the economic downturn makes it increasingly difficult for federal and state government officials to build and operate their own jails." For-profit prison companies like the Corrections Corporation of America and GEO Group (formerly Wackenhut) are positioned for increased profits. It is still not clear what impact the just-signed stimulus bill will have on the private prison industry (for example, the bill contains $800 million for prison construction, yet billions for school construction were cut out).

And there is this specifically about Texas:

The country with the highest incarceration rate in the world — the United States — is supporting a $3 billion private prison industry. In Texas, where free enterprise meets law and order, there are more for-profit prisons than any other state. But because of a growing inmate shortage, some private jails cannot fill empty cells, leaving some towns wishing they'd never gotten in the prison business.

Source

And if you feel like watching something, go here:

A Texas judge has set an arraignment date for Friday for Vice President Dick Cheney and former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales. They were indicted this week by a Texas grand jury on state charges accusing them of responsibility for prisoner abuse in a privately run federal jail. We speak with Willacy County District Attorney Juan Angel Guerra. [includes rush transcript]

'member that?

Originally posted by ..5..

Since the 1980's our population has doubled (the tax bse hs doubled nd yet the roadspace has increased by under 10% (I think the figure is around 8%).

Population may have doubled (since the 1980s, really? I'll go with it), and thus tax base has doubled. But I can guarantee that the billionaire club has not doubled, and even it if has, proportionately to the lower classes, the lobbying and tax loopholes have only gotten worse (or better, if it's from their perspective, I suppose).

As far as roads go, the amount created from scratch may not have gone up drastically, but do you recall a bridge collapse in Minnesota? That is an example of up-keep being severely needed. These things don't maintain themselves. Of course, we could privatize all of the highways...only to be used by those who can afford them

Not to mention the potholes not paid for by billion-dollar corporations that transport their junk across the country on them, but get these nice loopholes to not pay for the infrastructure at a fair rate for their usage...I mean, I don't drive a 18-wheeler, let alone have a team of hundreds of them, so why should I be burdened with a high tax rate to maintain the roads and highways and other corporations simply keep their bank accounts in the Caymans so they don't have to pay for those roads either???

Don't get me started on how much education system sucks up.

edit on 10-7-2011 by ..5.. because: (no reason given)

Yes, and charter schools will solve everything, just like NCLB (No Child Left Behind)...nothing fills the gaps in analytical ability and problem-solving in our children more than standardized testing with rote-learning.

Naw, OP just listen to all these responses. All those poor California govt workers HAVE to keep getting paid even though the state is 2.3 trillion in debt and businesses are continuing the mass exodus from their state. Soon all they'll have left is state workers with no real tax payers to pay their salaries. But nevermind that, just have everyone keep their head in the sand.

reply to post by Sphota


The population doubling does not equal the tax basis doubeling (would be nice if it did) the increase in population is from poor and unskilled labor entering the state and their families.

The people throwing up their hands and leaving are the those skilled workers the state should be courting to stay.

Originally posted by jjkenobi
Naw, OP just listen to all these responses. All those poor California govt workers HAVE to keep getting paid even though the state is 2.3 trillion in debt and businesses are continuing the mass exodus from their state. Soon all they'll have left is state workers with no real tax payers to pay their salaries. But nevermind that, just have everyone keep their head in the sand.

Like Belguim? Greece? Do we really want to follow them down that road?
After the Bell eight people started top take stock of how much these state workers make and since their salary is public information it is leaking out bit by bit and the public workers are hating that.