Budget cuts force Calif. police and firemen to watch man drown

reply to post by Miraj


What about the moral consequences? I don't buy it. Not for a minute.

Unfortunately, I have to work. But I'll be back this evening.

Peace.

Okay, when I first saw this story I got pretty ticked off and agreed with everyone calling these responders cowards. I am an EMT/Firefighter and would NEVER hesitate to step in and try to save someones life.

But then, I looked more closely at the story and thought about it. I was also a dispatcher and teach first responders.

FIRST: Whenever there is a suicide attempt, the police go in first while fire/ems stage to make sure that the 'scene is secure'. This was a suicide attempt. The man was trying to kill himself, he did not 'need' rescuing, he needed someone to gain physical control over him and drag him to shore against his will.

SECOND: He was 150 yards from the shore. Think about that. A football field is 100 yards. Could YOU swim the length of one-and-a-half football fields in cold water and not need rescuing yourself?

THIRD: Once you crossed that 150 yards of cold water, you now have a suicidal man you have to fight with (in cold, deep water) not knowing how big, how crazy or violent he was. You don't even know if he might have a weapon.

FOURTH: IF you were able to gain control over him without being drowned yourself, you would then have to drage his sorry butt back another 150 yards to shore.


I don't know about you, but unless you were an olympic level swimmer with some very specific training you wouldn't have a chance in hell of even attempting this and come out alive.

So while on the surface of the story, especially given the headline, it is easy to judge, after thinking about this I don't see what they could have possibly done from the shore without specialized equipment and training. This would have HAD to be done from a boat where you could maintain control without being in the water and vulnerable.

No. This isn't a case of cowards. This is a case of a man who chose to end his life and an emergency department that apparantly was not equiped or trained for a water rescue. If there is any place for blame, it is on the man who chose these actions and the admin that failed to be prepared to react to it. I am quite certain that those heros standing on the shore that night will suffer nightmares for the inablility to act, as is their nature.

A bunch of cowards and children. That is what they are.

They are scum

Nothing less nothing more.

TIME FOR A REVOLUTION

They probably tazed him and shot him while he was drowning.

reply to post by beezzer


BS. They should have tried to save him, this is a complete cop-out. They are cowards who wouldn't try to save a person's life? Wow. Best and brightest saving, serving and protecting. I don't think so.

reply to post by beezzer


You'd be a fool to think that not doing anything wouldnt weigh on most of their conscience..

Still. There's more than just emotions to the debate.

reply to post by westcoast


Sometimes you just have to have faith. He wanted someone to come in after him.

6 pages and nobody sees it important to mention that 75+ pedestrian gawkers lined the shores, all standing around watching and waiting for someone else to do something... This may be a tragic failing of city policy that led to inaction by the police/firefighters, but it is also an example of mindless group-think and inaction by spectators... I guess it soothes the conscience when there is someone else, or something else to lay the blame on. I wonder what each person would find, were they to look inwards and examine their own reasons for not stepping up?

If he wanted to commit suicide then let him. Not gonna endanger another officer or fireman. Or get involve in legal battles if he gets hurt in the process.

reply to post by LadySkadi


I think it's just disheartening to realize that no one stepped up to the plate. Yes, it's easy to sit back and say, "This is what I would do." The public has this image in their head of what their Peace Officers and Fire fighters, EMT's would/should do and have a certain expectation of them. I think it's that disappointment perhaps in knowing something went wrong/failed in the public's eyes that has people up in arms. I don't know about you, but I look up to those people like my heroes, you know? They are the ones who come in to the rescue. Or at least in my eyes they do, and when it is perceived that they just stood there, of course the public is going to be disappointed. We expect the calvary when someone's in danger, and when that calvary just sits back and watches....

well, if they die doing something they're not certified to do, the family doesn't get any kind of life insurance because it's not considered an on-duty death. doesn't excuse what happened, but you get what you vote for, i guess.

i wouldn't save a suicidal drowner, either, so.

This is exactly why I dislike seeing all police, firemen, and soldiers (among others) being called Heroes. Some are, absolutely, but no doubt many are not, too. It does take a certain amount of bravery to just choose to put yourself in the position of possibly having to do something heroic but that still falls short of actually being a hero. Heroism is based on actions, not labels Being a Hero often means overcoming your fear and still getting the job done in spite of your fear. Remember when that female soldier was taken prisoner and rescued in Iraq? She was called a Heroine. Apparently because she survived, because I have no idea what she did to deserve that title. It made for great picture opportunities, nice little theater and public relations, but hardly heroic. For all these firemen and police to stand by while someone died in neck deep water is pathetic to me. Screw the rules and regs! That is NOT heroism, that's cowardice hiding behind the facade and excuse of rules and regs! Don't cheapen the title of Hero or Heroine!

This story sounds extremely distorted to me. I have several relatives who are firefighters, and none of them would simply let a man drown if they felt they had any chance of saving him. The fact is, this man was suicidal. He wanted to kill himself, and anyone who tried to save him could easily have died in the process. At the VERY LEAST, they needed specially trained individuals to REACH him, let alone RESCUE him. Its one thing to sit here and be armchair athletes-- it's quite another to actually plunge into icy water, swim a great distance, gain control of a suicidal man AND bring him back to shore alive. There is a fine line between bravery and stupidity in cases like this, and my guess is that most of the crowd felt there was nothing they could do-- police intervention or not.

negligent homicide!
negligent homicide!

I'll say it again:

Originally posted by westcoast
Okay, when I first saw this story I got pretty ticked off and agreed with everyone calling these responders cowards. I am an EMT/Firefighter and would NEVER hesitate to step in and try to save someones life.

But then, I looked more closely at the story and thought about it. I was also a dispatcher and teach first responders.

FIRST: Whenever there is a suicide attempt, the police go in first while fire/ems stage to make sure that the 'scene is secure'. This was a suicide attempt. The man was trying to kill himself, he did not 'need' rescuing, he needed someone to gain physical control over him and drag him to shore against his will.

SECOND: He was 150 yards from the shore. Think about that. A football field is 100 yards. Could YOU swim the length of one-and-a-half football fields in cold water and not need rescuing yourself?

THIRD: Once you crossed that 150 yards of cold water, you now have a suicidal man you have to fight with (in cold, deep water) not knowing how big, how crazy or violent he was. You don't even know if he might have a weapon.

FOURTH: IF you were able to gain control over him without being drowned yourself, you would then have to drage his sorry butt back another 150 yards to shore.


I don't know about you, but unless you were an olympic level swimmer with some very specific training you wouldn't have a chance in hell of even attempting this and come out alive.

So while on the surface of the story, especially given the headline, it is easy to judge, after thinking about this I don't see what they could have possibly done from the shore without specialized equipment and training. This would have HAD to be done from a boat where you could maintain control without being in the water and vulnerable.

No. This isn't a case of cowards. This is a case of a man who chose to end his life and an emergency department that apparantly was not equiped or trained for a water rescue. If there is any place for blame, it is on the man who chose these actions and the admin that failed to be prepared to react to it. I am quite certain that those heros standing on the shore that night will suffer nightmares for the inablility to act, as is their nature.

Does anyone THINK before they post anymore?????

back in early 2000 i saw a man drown in hermosa beach at about 1am. i and another saw a drunk man run into the surf and not come out. I reported it to the police first, they told me to go to the life guard tower,meanwhile they did nothing. In the tower i had to retell the story again, and fill out a form. I had to leave the tower to tell them that i was going to be on the beach looking for the man. they didn't even get a helicopter on the water or a paddle boarder on the water for at least a half an hour.

It was at that moment that i knew the police didn't give a F@#$ about the average individual.

there is a whole bunch more to the story, but that was the jist of it. no body was recovered.

This is a perfect example of how cops are. Would you risk your job to save a life? I would. On top of that who would file a lawsuit against someone or the department they worked for because they saved a persons life? No One. Those people while have to live with the fact that they basically killed a man by watching him drowned himself. Hope they have nightmares!

reply to post by beezzer


this is beyond pathetic. imo, they all bear responsibility in the man's death. they disgust me.whatever happened to human decentcy???