John Galt on Christianity: The evil of the Original Sin

Originally posted by eight bits
There is no indication that Hebrews generally interpreted this Hebrew story as being about a heritable guilt for our ancestors' misdemeanor, for which each of us needs to be forgiven.

Really? That's why hebrews offered animal sacrifices, until their messiah would come, who would deliver them from their state.

BTW, in the Eastern Orthodox Church, it's Saint Adam and Saint Eve. They did the crime, they did the time. Case closed. They have their eternal life, and they have their knowledge of good and evil, and they have them in Paradise. They'll have those buff naked bodies back, too, by and by.

Actually, no. Adam and Eve are dead and they do not exist. The Bible is also clear on the condition of the dead in Eccl. 9:4,5, just one example. They cease to exist. Adam and Eve did not get a reward of heavenly life. They were told they would die, and that they did. Ezekiel 18:4 is also clear - "the soul that is sinning, it itself will die".

Gandalph, my remark said "in the Eastern Orthodox Church." They are not sola scritptura, and when they do turn to the Bible, they may read it differently than you do.

My description of somebody's belief doesn't imply my endorsement that what they believe is true. That you believe differently is noted with thanks, but you and I have nothing to debate. I am not a spokesman for Orthodoxy.

If you have a citation for Jewish belief in inherited guilt and atonement by the living for the sin of Adam and Eve, then please don't hesitate to share it.

reply to post by filosophia


My question is why didn't God try to forgive Adam and Eve? According to Christians he's merciful yet he kicks Adam and Eve out after cursing them and allows them to infect the world with sin. God could have done anything, he's God after all, instead he let's sin continue to the point where the entire world is evil and after than his best idea is apparently to drown everyone in a horrific worldwide flood...

According to Christians he's merciful ...

But it's not a Christian story. Christians don't even exist for centuries after the story was first written down. The doctrine of inherited guilt apparently begins with Augustine of Hippo, who came centuries after Paul, who in turn may have been the first to connect any dots between this story, of all things, and the career of Jesus, of all people.

In the Eden wrath scene, God states his concern plainly, that discernment-wisdom and immortality are incompatible for humans. Evidently this is an essential incompatibility, since he needn't even have forgiven the couple, he need only have walked away. But, for whatever reason, he felt that he could not allow this combination to continue uncorrected.

God did not simply remove the incompatibility. Perhaps that's impossible; the story does not elaborate. Neither did he reverse the effects of the fruit on the people involved. Perhaps that's impossible, too. So, they're going to die. Die as gods, by the way, after ruling the Earth for centuries. Yes, that's terrible.

The "curses" are interesting if you think about them. People can't live in a ready-made garden as layabouts-in-residence anymore, but now they can make their own gardens, if they want, by their own effort. Babies' heads were never going to fit through birth canals anyway. No doubt, God was wondering how he was going to explain that bit of engineering fail. Lucky break, now it's the client's fault. And snakes were condemned to crawl around... like snakes.

Plus, God throws in two suits of real clothes as a parting gift. All in all, then, God does what he apparently has to do, and very little beyond that. He makes a show of bluster, but then, showy and blustery come easily to him.

A lot of the atheist mantra about the evil God of the Hebrew Bible is not based upon the Old Testament, but rather based upon reading the Old Testament with much later gentile Christian interpretive revisions. Even then, given the diversity of Chrsitian thought, a certain amount of selectivity among the revisions is often needed to make the argument go.

There is no support in the story for Adam and the All-mother infecting the world with sin. The Flood is a different story. It isn't even Hebrew. That Hebrews appropriated their neighbors' story, while beefing up the role of the rainmaker to be played by their God, ... well, that couldn't have anything to do with inflating the importance of their own nation, could it?

Nah. I mean, what nation would write its national epic with that in mind?

-

reply to post by gandalph


I don't mean you personally, I mean the churches teachings

Morality:

Man has never been moral. Therefore man can never go back to be something they never where. Man has to try and discover what true morality is.

Adam and Eve where never moral. If they where, they would never have sinned. This means that God never created Man as perfect beings. But as beings that have to learn as they go along.

The robot-like state in the garden of Eden is just one interpretation and has nothing to do with freedom, and since the story is taken from the Bible, we should critique it against the rest of the book - it doesn't hold water.

The very fact that Adam/Eve *could* make the decision to break out shows that they were not robots, and that they could exercise free will.

Can a person know he is autonomous if he never does anything that an autonomous person would do?
If you always follow someone elses rules, can you know you can follow your own rule?
No you cannot. The proof is in the doing.

www.youtube.com...

Moreover, Jesus is described as being a perfect man, equivalent to the original Adam (pre-sin). I don't think there is anything written in the gospels or the new testament that will make you believe that he had a robot-like state of mind. He certainly possessed the knowledge of what was good and what was bad.

Strange that Adam became as God after what you call a sin and that that somehow makes Jesus more of a God than Adam who according to God, became as God.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by spy66
Morality:

Man has never been moral. Therefore man can never go back to be something they never where. Man has to try and discover what true morality is.

Adam and Eve where never moral. If they where, they would never have sinned. This means that God never created Man as perfect beings. But as beings that have to learn as they go along.

Did they not have learn morals to be as God's, knowing good and evil?

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by spy66
Morality:

Man has never been moral. Therefore man can never go back to be something they never where. Man has to try and discover what true morality is.

Adam and Eve where never moral. If they where, they would never have sinned. This means that God never created Man as perfect beings. But as beings that have to learn as they go along.

Did they not have learn morals to be as God's, knowing good and evil?

Regards
DL

Yes Adam and Eve knew right from wrong. Because they did reply to the snake, that they weren't to eat from the tree of knowledge.

So they had knowledge about moral values. But having the knowledge didn't make them much moral. Adam and Eve choose to eat from the tree anyway. Despite knowing that it was wrong.

Originally posted by spy66

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by spy66
Morality:

Man has never been moral. Therefore man can never go back to be something they never where. Man has to try and discover what true morality is.

Adam and Eve where never moral. If they where, they would never have sinned. This means that God never created Man as perfect beings. But as beings that have to learn as they go along.

Did they not have learn morals to be as God's, knowing good and evil?

Regards
DL

Yes Adam and Eve knew right from wrong. Because they did reply to the snake, that they weren't to eat from the tree of knowledge.

So they had knowledge about moral values. But having the knowledge didn't make them much moral. Adam and Eve choose to eat from the tree anyway. Despite knowing that it was wrong.

edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)

Not logical.
One cannot know good and evil without having knowledge of good and evil.
If they did know then they would have known they were naked before eating of the tree of knowledge.

They knew of God's command but could not know if it was a good command or not and whether or not it was good or evil to not follow it.

Why do you think Martin Luther hated logic and reason so much. Because it makes a mockery of your dogma.
Lose the dogma and start thinking.

How can it be wrong to gain the knowledge that makes one as God?

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by spy66

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by spy66
Morality:

Man has never been moral. Therefore man can never go back to be something they never where. Man has to try and discover what true morality is.

Adam and Eve where never moral. If they where, they would never have sinned. This means that God never created Man as perfect beings. But as beings that have to learn as they go along.

Did they not have learn morals to be as God's, knowing good and evil?

Regards
DL

Yes Adam and Eve knew right from wrong. Because they did reply to the snake, that they weren't to eat from the tree of knowledge.

So they had knowledge about moral values. But having the knowledge didn't make them much moral. Adam and Eve choose to eat from the tree anyway. Despite knowing that it was wrong.

edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)

Not logical.
One cannot know good and evil without having knowledge of good and evil.
If they did know then they would have known they were naked before eating of the tree of knowledge.

They knew of God's command but could not know if it was a good command or not and whether or not it was good or evil to not follow it.

Why do you think Martin Luther hated logic and reason so much. Because it makes a mockery of your dogma.
Lose the dogma and start thinking.

How can it be wrong to gain the knowledge that makes one as God?

Regards
DL

God explained what good and evil was. God explained what would happen if they ate from the tree of knowledge. God told them that they would die.

Learn "of" and experiance death and the knowledge of good and evil.

I bet Adam and Eve didn't want to die even though they didn't know what death was . You dont want to die either. And you dont know what death will be like, you can only imagine it. But you don't want to die.

God gave Adam and Eve a moral choice. A moral choice to decide their own faith. Adam and Even didn't listen to Gods moral reason. They choose to the moral reasoning of the snake.

So Adam and Eve were never moral. But they made a moral choice. A choice i bet they regretted. Or what do you think? God told them what would happen and it happened.

They both knew what would happen before they took from the tree. But they took anyway. That is a moral choice. But they made the wrong choice.

God didn't want Adam and Eve to experiance the knowledge of death, and the difference between good and evil. Just like we wish there wasn't any death or evil in the world to day. To day, we all had wished that Adam and Eve had made the right moral choice, and listened to God.

Adam and Eve had a choice to choose between what they had, or experiance death and the difference between good and evil. They choose death and the knowledge between good and evil. Adam and Eve choose to listen to a creature of God rather then to listen to God him self. That is morality right there.


Who's moral values do you want your kids to fallow. Yours or someone else's?

Originally posted by spy66

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by spy66

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by spy66
Morality:

Man has never been moral. Therefore man can never go back to be something they never where. Man has to try and discover what true morality is.

Adam and Eve where never moral. If they where, they would never have sinned. This means that God never created Man as perfect beings. But as beings that have to learn as they go along.

Did they not have learn morals to be as God's, knowing good and evil?

Regards
DL

Yes Adam and Eve knew right from wrong. Because they did reply to the snake, that they weren't to eat from the tree of knowledge.

So they had knowledge about moral values. But having the knowledge didn't make them much moral. Adam and Eve choose to eat from the tree anyway. Despite knowing that it was wrong.

edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)

Not logical.
One cannot know good and evil without having knowledge of good and evil.
If they did know then they would have known they were naked before eating of the tree of knowledge.

They knew of God's command but could not know if it was a good command or not and whether or not it was good or evil to not follow it.

Why do you think Martin Luther hated logic and reason so much. Because it makes a mockery of your dogma.
Lose the dogma and start thinking.

How can it be wrong to gain the knowledge that makes one as God?

Regards
DL

God explained what good and evil was. God explained what would happen if they ate from the tree of knowledge. God told them that they would die.

Learn "of" and experiance death and the knowledge of good and evil.

I bet Adam and Eve didn't want to die even though they didn't know what death was . You dont want to die either. And you dont know what death will be like, you can only imagine it. But you don't want to die.

God gave Adam and Eve a moral choice. A moral choice to decide their own faith. Adam and Even didn't listen to Gods moral reason. They choose to the moral reasoning of the snake.

So Adam and Eve were never moral. But they made a moral choice. A choice i bet they regretted. Or what do you think? God told them what would happen and it happened.

They both knew what would happen before they took from the tree. But they took anyway. That is a moral choice. But they made the wrong choice.

God didn't want Adam and Eve to experiance the knowledge of death, and the difference between good and evil. Just like we wish there wasn't any death or evil in the world to day. To day, we all had wished that Adam and Eve had made the right moral choice, and listened to God.

Adam and Eve had a choice to choose between what they had, or experiance death and the difference between good and evil. They choose death and the knowledge between good and evil. Adam and Eve choose to listen to a creature of God rather then to listen to God him self. That is morality right there.


Who's moral values do you want your kids to fallow. Yours or someone else's?

edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)

You ask this after saying that A & E should have rejected the knowledge that gives moral sense.

I want my children to meet or beat whatever I am.
If God wants any less for his children, and you seem to think, a mis-use of that word in your case, that his children should be less than himself, then youtr God is less moral than man.

You have bought into the dogma without thought.

A & E did not die.
They did not know of the consequences of eating of the tree of knowledge and the snake did not lie.

Show if you can where the snake lied.
Show where God gave A & E all the consequences of eating of the tree of knowledge including where he tells them their eyes will be open and they will be as God's.

He does not and that shows that you are lying when you say that he did.

Admit it and come back to learn or take your foolish dogma that you do not understand and--------

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by spy66

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by spy66

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by spy66
Morality:

Man has never been moral. Therefore man can never go back to be something they never where. Man has to try and discover what true morality is.

Adam and Eve where never moral. If they where, they would never have sinned. This means that God never created Man as perfect beings. But as beings that have to learn as they go along.

Did they not have learn morals to be as God's, knowing good and evil?

Regards
DL

Yes Adam and Eve knew right from wrong. Because they did reply to the snake, that they weren't to eat from the tree of knowledge.

So they had knowledge about moral values. But having the knowledge didn't make them much moral. Adam and Eve choose to eat from the tree anyway. Despite knowing that it was wrong.

edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)

Not logical.
One cannot know good and evil without having knowledge of good and evil.
If they did know then they would have known they were naked before eating of the tree of knowledge.

They knew of God's command but could not know if it was a good command or not and whether or not it was good or evil to not follow it.

Why do you think Martin Luther hated logic and reason so much. Because it makes a mockery of your dogma.
Lose the dogma and start thinking.

How can it be wrong to gain the knowledge that makes one as God?

Regards
DL

God explained what good and evil was. God explained what would happen if they ate from the tree of knowledge. God told them that they would die.

Learn "of" and experiance death and the knowledge of good and evil.

I bet Adam and Eve didn't want to die even though they didn't know what death was . You dont want to die either. And you dont know what death will be like, you can only imagine it. But you don't want to die.

God gave Adam and Eve a moral choice. A moral choice to decide their own faith. Adam and Even didn't listen to Gods moral reason. They choose to the moral reasoning of the snake.

So Adam and Eve were never moral. But they made a moral choice. A choice i bet they regretted. Or what do you think? God told them what would happen and it happened.

They both knew what would happen before they took from the tree. But they took anyway. That is a moral choice. But they made the wrong choice.

God didn't want Adam and Eve to experiance the knowledge of death, and the difference between good and evil. Just like we wish there wasn't any death or evil in the world to day. To day, we all had wished that Adam and Eve had made the right moral choice, and listened to God.

Adam and Eve had a choice to choose between what they had, or experiance death and the difference between good and evil. They choose death and the knowledge between good and evil. Adam and Eve choose to listen to a creature of God rather then to listen to God him self. That is morality right there.


Who's moral values do you want your kids to fallow. Yours or someone else's?

edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)

You ask this after saying that A & E should have rejected the knowledge that gives moral sense.

I want my children to meet or beat whatever I am.
If God wants any less for his children, and you seem to think, a mis-use of that word in your case, that his children should be less than himself, then youtr God is less moral than man.

You have bought into the dogma without thought.

A & E did not die.
They did not know of the consequences of eating of the tree of knowledge and the snake did not lie.

Show if you can where the snake lied.
Show where God gave A & E all the consequences of eating of the tree of knowledge including where he tells them their eyes will be open and they will be as God's.

He does not and that shows that you are lying when you say that he did.

Admit it and come back to learn or take your foolish dogma that you do not understand and--------

Regards
DL

Of course you want your children to be better then your self. Because you are not any more moral then Adam and Eve was.

You are far from the standard of morality. So you want your kids to be better then you are. But they wont be any better then you, because they are not the standard for morality either, because you never where and no one else is.

You cant teach your kids to be something you have no knowledge about, and never where or have been. You cant teach your kids to fallow moral values when you dont know what morality is.

They will make wrong moral choices all through their life, because you did.


What is evil?

Is it evil to have the knowledge between good and evil? We have that knowledge. Adam and Eve didn't.

Having the knowledge dont make you evil until you have done something immoral. So you are not evil until you have done something immoral.


What is immoral?

Is it immoral if you choose "not" to listen to authority? What happens to you if you go against authority?

No, it is not immoral until you choose to act against authority. Until you commit the act.

God is Thee authority figure. And God told Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree.

You dont have authority to question God if what Adam and Eve did was right or wrong. You have no authority because you dont know what morality is. You can only have a opinion about something you have no knowledge about. A opinion that wont change anything. Because non of us are moral.



We have become the knowledge between good and evil. Has that knowledge made us any better? Are we living up to the standard of morality?

No, and God warned Adam and Eve about it. They had the knowledge of what would happen. Having the knowledge of good and evil doesn't make us any better.

reply to post by spy66


Two things before I ignore your sorry ass.

I note you could not answer any of my questions on A & E or did not like your answer and decided to go for the personal attack instead. That is dishonest so check your morals friend.

Second has two parts.
You have judged God and want to deny me the same privilege. That is not reciprocity or a level playing field and dishonest.

As to challenging authority, think Rosa Parks and see how bad things would be in the U S if she had followed your piss poor advise.

Get honest or get lost.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by eight bits
filosophia

Lol, John Galt is a fictional character. Meh, how real are any of us here, either?

So you agree both are fictional characters? I'm not suggesting people go and worship John Galt. I was happening to be reading Atlas Shrugged and saw some threads on here about how good Christians don't read Ayn Rand well I decided to back that up from the horse's mouth, and took most of the ideas from John Galt's final speech in Atlas Shrugged. Ironically Ayn Rand also came into the news because of the Arizona shooting.

filosophia

So you agree both are fictional characters?

Yes, I am an agnostic.

I'm a libertarian (small-l), too, so, like many other libbies, I've done my time with Ms. Rand, and have read Atlas Shrugged. Once . No regrets for that, either.

Ironically Ayn Rand also came into the news because of the Arizona shooting.

For We, the Living, which is not the sort of book that urges the reader to run right out and shoot a moderate Democrat member of Congress, a federal judge, and anybody else who happened to be in the vicinity.

Shooting people was the last thing Rand would advocate. Connecting her to this is far-fetched, and just silly, IMO.

Anyway, it's a good thread. Thanks for posting it.

Originally posted by gandalph

Originally posted by Griffo
You say jesus was born with out sin and he is infallible, but you also say, according to the bible, that every man (and woman) is created equally.

Quote?

Hebrews 5:8
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Jesus would not suffer if he had done all things the right way.

Jesus also said that no one is good except God himself.

Regards
DL