By Resistting our Bigotry Gays Are Persecuting The Church says Italian Cardinal

Christians must brace themselves for a "new form of persecution" driven by homosexual activists and their ideological accomplices, an Italian cardinal has said.

Freedom of thought and expression is under threat from the gay rights movement, said Cardinal Giacomo Biffi, the retired archbishop of Bologna, in memoirs that are published on Thursday. And the result is that those people who disagreed with the homosexual agenda are being ostracised by society, he said.

"The ideology of homosexuality" – as often happens to ideologies when they become aggressive and end up being politically triumphant "becomes a threat to our legitimate autonomy of thought: those who do not share it risk condemnation to a kind of cultural and social marginalisation," said Cardinal Biffi.

The attacks on freedom of thought start with language," he wrote. "Those who do not resign themselves to accept 'homophilia' ... are charged with 'homophobia'."

So a persons right to have a sexual relationship with who they wish has suddenly become a threat to christian "legitimate autonomy" ?????

This coming from a group of people( whose belief system curiously enough is based upon illegitimacy )
that give out books to little children that instruct gays be put to death !!!!!

Even if it were true, so what ??? Stop complaining be the martyr your supposed to be !

www.telegraph.co.uk...

reply to post by The Djin

Explanation: Flagged!

But uhmmm???

Your post poses a question...

So a persons right to have a sexual relationship with who they wish has suddenly become a threat to christian "legitimate autonomy" ?????

Nope!... here is why...

"becomes a threat to our legitimate autonomy of thought: those who do not share it risk condemnation to a kind of cultural and social marginalisation,"

They do have an inalienable right as do you all [not me..I'm a monster OK] as garanteed by this document that superceeds even their bibles authority...

Universal Declaration of Human Rights [un.org]

PREAMBLE
Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,

Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people,

Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law,

Article 18.
•Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Article 19.
•Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Article 20.
•(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.
•(2) No one may be compelled to belong to an association.

But that doesn't mean that homosexuals should be denied any of these inalienable rights of theirs either...

Article 16.
•(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
•(2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
•(3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.

Article 22.
•Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.

Article 7.
•All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

Article 1.
•All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 2.
•Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Personal Disclosure: I'm quite disgusted by how you tried to twist this! No St*r for you!

It never ceases to amaze me that one of the largest majorities in the world (~33%) are always screaming about their constant, unrelenting persecution cry wolf much?

s&f OP

replace the word homophobia with racist.

the op is true, however. socially unacceptable ideas are put down by others. we did it with racism, with treating women as lesser beings, and now with homosexuals.

now, heres the rub. the christian bible, considered revealed by god, condemns homosexuality. so there is nothing we can do to stop christians from condeming homosexuals. you cant change the word of god, you know. freedom of religion alows them that bigotry. now we just have to figure out how to combine the two. freedom of religion, and freedom of personal choice.

I challenge any of the catholics who are being persecuted by the b/g/l groups to offer me proof that they are being "persecuted" as the word is defined. To the early christians, persecution meant being forced out of town by angry pitchfork wielding mobs. Persecution was severe physical beatings, persecution meant squaring off mano a mano with a hungry lion. I suspect that what catholics are calling "persecution" amounts to nothing more than "rejection". It's not being persecuted that is stinging your feelings - it's being ignored.
You are nothing but a failing populace control institution, made rich and fat by preying on the unsuspecting population who cowered before you in fear. In you past you had it made, with your inquisitions and conquests. Entire villages torn apart and looted all in the name of your god. Innocent people murdered and tortured at the hands of your holy men, simply because they refused to swallow your magical biscuit. Entire livelihoods were overturned as you offensively sought out to overthrow anyone who would argue against you.
And now, here you are, whining more than a school bus full of little girls would if a frog suddenly appeared in their midst because a group of people have enough guts to stand up for what they believe in - and most importantly, to DEFY you. You are rotten to the core, the life blood that pulses through the veins of the church stinks of decay, it smells horribly of raped children, sexual crimes, cover-ups, and of your own priests immersed in pedophilia. The world is starting to smell it, your bright shiny paint is chipping away to show the years of decay. This institution will fall, it will crumble to the ground, but it WILL take a very long time. Not everyone that is shown the truth will believe the truth - not even with proof. To believe the lie you are comfortable with is much easier than believing the truth that shatters everything you've ever known. I would rather believe the heartbreaking truth than to follow the lie spoken of fools. The bible is right you know - the truth WILL set you free.

Well, well, well

but what are the sadly misunderstood extremist christians going to do? Like the arian 'übermenschen', they seem to have a strong psychological drive pressing them to demonstrate their god-sanctioned superiority.

Until some centuries ago they could appoint themselves law, judge and executive authority.....weren't those the days, dudes...., but in contemporary godless society this is next to impossible (though D-g knows some of them do their best to reinstate the values of that golden age).

And as if this isn't enough, they are almost also out of sinners, whom they can alternatively reform or burn without getting in to much trouble.

So to avoid bursting from unfulfilled righteousness, proselytizing and other general expressions of holiness, they have decided on homosexuals as a target group; ofcourse for the homosexuals' own good.

Given any other other options, homosexuals probably wouldn't have been extremist christians' first choice of repentees, savees (or in case of resistance charcoalees), but even last-day christians (with which I ofcourse mean THIS century's last-day christians) have to adapt. So homosexuals it is.

But believe it or not, these ungrateful, darned to eternal burning, m....r f.....g bastards are not only refusing to be saved, they have organized themselves in satanic groups going against the wishes of D-g, the book, the many, many different churches of christianity and not least the average individual extremist christian homophobic.

And while bashing homosexuals and trying to get them to tie heavy metal things to their private parts as part of aversion therapy, is a god-given and righteous thing to do.....

....defying extremist christians is definitely misuse of free speech, bigotry against the most holy church(es) and the final beginning of the end of theocracy (which as everybody knows is better than democracy).

And the unavoidable outcome: Without the moral guidance of the chruch(es) law-and-order will fall, anarchy and chaos will rule, adultery will grow to the point, where people will actually start enjoying sex again and televangelists will have to pay taxes.

Brethern and sistren, I cannot emphasize this enough, though I'm doing it with just one little word:

"WOE"

I'm agnostic but the Cardinal is exactly correct.

reply to post by SevenBeans


So please take the time to explain how

reply to post by OmegaLogos

our legitimate autonomy of thought:

Apologies for forgetting a word , not intentional and no intention to twist anything four hours is hup so I can't edit I'm afraid

Originally posted by stormson
replace the word homophobia with racist.

Why?

They aren't similar things.

Homosexuality and voyeurism are much more comprable.

In any case, I've yet to meet a person who is afraid of homosexuals.

Gay and lesbian acceptance was invented by the communists so people would turn away from god. You are a dirty communist if you hate religion. You are also a dirty communist is you think it is normal and healthy to be gay or lesbian. That's all there is to it. One day, you will realize the error of your ways when you are enroute to the gas chambers... For some reason I feel sorry for all of you fools.

Originally posted by The Djin
So please take the time to explain how

edit on 18-11-2010 by The Djin because: was not a one line post quote didn't work

Where to start...

With the kids I guess... kids are being pressured into thinking that homosexuality is perfectly healthy and normal. A child expressing a view different than this will be publically reprimanded, looked askance at etc. etc. etc. Of course, most will still see it as abnormal (because it is) but they won't feel free to express their thoughts on this.

Originally posted by SevenBeans
Where to start...

With the kids I guess... kids are being pressured into thinking that homosexuality is perfectly healthy and normal. A child expressing a view different than this will be publically reprimanded, looked askance at etc. etc. etc. Of course, most will still see it as abnormal (because it is) but they won't feel free to express their thoughts on this.

I'm going to do one of those annoying 180s ... Have a look:

With the kids I guess... kids are being pressured into thinking that Religion is perfectly healthy and normal. A child expressing a view different than this will be publically reprimanded, looked askance at etc. etc. etc. Of course, most will still see it as abnormal (because it is) but they won't feel free to express their thoughts on this

I grew up in Roman Catholic town and it just wasn't for me. I never believed in it, but I was forced to go to Church once a week, retreats twice a year, and youth group and bible study once a fortnight. I did this for years. Never at any point in my life have I heard of such a vigorous brain washing regime started by homosexuality. It depresses me to think how many hours of my life I wasted listening to people I didn't believe or trust and pretending to be one of them.

The fact of the matter is you have to train your children to deal with difference. Homosexuals have to deal with the religious, and you lot have to deal with them.

Quit crying 1984 thought crime etc and get used to the idea that there are people that disagree with you and they're perfectly entitled to. The solution is pretty simple ...

Ignore the fact a person is gay, they'll likely ignore the fact you're a raving Christian. Bring it up ... you'll likely argue. I have plenty of religious friends who ignore certain things I do simply because we both know it's not our place to change one another.

It's a complex topic but children have to be made to understand it and make their own minds up. As for it not being natural blah blah blah ... lets not go down that road again. Lets just say ... look you likely don't have the scientific credentials to say so, and I likely don't have the theological credentials to argue with you so lets no start another gaysplosion debate thread?

Originally posted by Pinke
I'm going to do one of those annoying 180s ... Have a look:

With the kids I guess... kids are being pressured into thinking that Religion is perfectly healthy and normal. A child expressing a view different than this will be publically reprimanded, looked askance at etc. etc. etc. Of course, most will still see it as abnormal (because it is) but they won't feel free to express their thoughts on this.

I don't understand the point of this... do you or don't you want kids to feel free to express their own thoughts on issues such as religion and homosexuality?

Not sure when you went to school, but on the rare occasions that religion was mentioned at mine, all opinions (including hostile opinions) were welcome.

Originally posted by Pinke
Quit crying 1984 thought crime etc and get used to the idea that there are people that disagree with you and they're perfectly entitled to. The solution is pretty simple ...

Huh? The point is that kids should feel free to express their disagreement and they are being made to feel like they can't do that in the case of homosexuality if they don't agree that it's normal and healthy.

Originally posted by Pinke
Ignore the fact a person is gay, they'll likely ignore the fact you're a raving Christian. Bring it up ... you'll likely argue. I have plenty of religious friends who ignore certain things I do simply because we both know it's not our place to change one another.

I'm not a Christian at all, let alone a "raving" one. I'm agnostic.

Kids should feel free to voice their opinion about homosexuality (even if they think it's weird, abnormal, unhealthy etc. etc.).

Originally posted by SevenBeans
I don't understand the point of this... do you or don't you want kids to feel free to express their own thoughts on issues such as religion and homosexuality?

Point is ... you're worried about kids growing up thinking homosexuality is perfectly normal and agree with this bishop. I'm worried about my children growing up thinking religion is perfectly normal. Unfortunately we have to get along, and you stating that you're concerned about children growing up with this opinion ... well that's not yours or my decision. That's the child's decision to make when they're older. We should show them that we can maturely provide the options, and coexist and even be friends together though.

Not sure when you went to school, but on the rare occasions that religion was mentioned at mine, all opinions (including hostile opinions) were welcome.

Our experiences were very different then. That has been known to happen. Furthermore my parents did push the Roman Catholic agenda on me. The whole thing runs both ways, but when bishops/priests etc ... make these statements they pretend it's a one way street.

Huh? The point is that kids should feel free to express their disagreement and they are being made to feel like they can't do that in the case of homosexuality if they don't agree that it's normal and healthy.

In *one* way I agree with you. In another way, I think it's no one's business really. Imagine being that one gay child and having everyone discussing your sex life in class and taking a vote to see if they agree? Should we do the same things about BDSM? Perhaps have public debating teams about it in schools? Children should be taught to be respectful more than they should be taught one side or the other. Imagine if you had grown up in the same situation I'd grown up in? My disbelief in religion alienated me from my class mates.

Adults are worried about one side or the other and it's the cart before the horse. Worry about teaching your children to be respectful and how to think critically and they will make their own minds up. It's also unfair on teachers to put them in this position.

Children don't need to know any more than 'people are sometimes gay, it's none of your business really, religion disagrees with it, the end.'

I'm not a Christian at all, let alone a "raving" one. I'm agnostic.

Apologies but I'm generalizing in one way ... but you did just agree with a debate point from a Cardinal which effectively boils down to ... OMGS the homos are coming! The homos are coming?!!!11!! The Cardinal is just as guilty of ideology as the people he's discussing. If it was up to him children would be taught black and not white. He is a raving Christian.

I don't see how one class where a teacher might give their opinion on homosexuality or whatever is any different from me being forced to go to Church for years on end. If you think a child being told homosexuality in my opinion is a natural normal thing is bad then you equally have to see my angle that Catholic schooling is bad. Alternatively, we could just teach children that life is complex and they should respect one another rather than having proverbial sword fencing matches over which ideology to serve up in the cafeteria.

Kids should feel free to voice their opinion about homosexuality (even if they think it's weird, abnormal, unhealthy etc. etc.).

Yes and no.

They should be taught to do it in a respectful way. I'm sure you somewhat agree but a child saying 'homosexuality is abnormal and unhealthy' is no different from me saying 'religious people are all nutters'. There's a time and place for opinions like this though and more so than religions sexuality is a private place.

Unless we're planning on discussing our in depth opinions on oral sex in school whilst we're at it - then it's just not appropriate to worry about. Parents and teachers have to get used to being neutral on these issues and teaching a complex world. Why does it have to be so black and white?

Should we start having classes for our KKK members too? Perhaps we should spend an hour of class discussing how it's okay to hate black people? It's a legitimate belief!

Or we can just be like ... look some people are Catholic, some people are gay, some people are even both children. Get used to it.

What you seem to be suggesting is we sit down and justify every negative belief or thought in a class room a child has and get them to express it. Perhaps we should invite Mel Gibson to be the main speaker?

I think they should be more worried about atheism than a minority group of people.

Whilst they object to an equal rights movement, their movement demands that everyone should throw their brains out of the window and accept their dogma as the word of God as given fact without offering any proof of its authenticity.

Originally posted by sliceNodice
Gay and lesbian acceptance was invented by the communists so people would turn away from god. You are a dirty communist if you hate religion. You are also a dirty communist is you think it is normal and healthy to be gay or lesbian. That's all there is to it. One day, you will realize the error of your ways when you are enroute to the gas chambers... For some reason I feel sorry for all of you fools.

What utter rubbish.

I feel sorry for you and your kids if you have any.
I really hope they don't turn out to be gay with the mentality you have.

Originally posted by sliceNodice
Gay and lesbian acceptance was invented by the communists so people would turn away from god. You are a dirty communist if you hate religion. You are also a dirty communist is you think it is normal and healthy to be gay or lesbian. That's all there is to it. One day, you will realize the error of your ways when you are enroute to the gas chambers... For some reason I feel sorry for all of you fools.

1/10 on the troll meter.

Way too obvious.

Originally posted by BigTimeCheater

Originally posted by sliceNodice
Gay and lesbian acceptance was invented by the communists so people would turn away from god. You are a dirty communist if you hate religion. You are also a dirty communist is you think it is normal and healthy to be gay or lesbian. That's all there is to it. One day, you will realize the error of your ways when you are enroute to the gas chambers... For some reason I feel sorry for all of you fools.

1/10 on the troll meter.

Way too obvious.

Dam it, I bit!

Originally posted by Pinke
\Point is ... you're worried about kids growing up thinking homosexuality is perfectly normal and agree with this bishop. I'm worried about my children growing up thinking religion is perfectly normal. Unfortunately we have to get along, and you stating that you're concerned about children growing up with this opinion ... well that's not yours or my decision. That's the child's decision to make when they're older. We should show them that we can maturely provide the options, and coexist and even be friends together though.

I have no desire to make the decision for them, my concern is that they aren't being provided an environment that is tolerant of them making their own decision. They are being made to feel that they can't voice their opinion and the reasons for it (if it happens to be anything but "homosexuality is perfectly normal and healthy").

Originally posted by Pinke
In *one* way I agree with you. In another way, I think it's no one's business really. Imagine being that one gay child and having everyone discussing your sex life in class and taking a vote to see if they agree? Should we do the same things about BDSM?

I don't think homosexuality is any more deserving of school time than BDSM is, both should be a footnote in the sex ed class (if that) and that should be the end of it. However, if you're going to talk about it you cannot allow one viewpoint and exclude the rest.

Originally posted by Pinke
Adults are worried about one side or the other and it's the cart before the horse. Worry about teaching your children to be respectful and how to think critically and they will make their own minds up. It's also unfair on teachers to put them in this position.

I agree about respect but people seem to have vastly different notions of what respect entails. If a child says they think homosexuality is abnormal and unhealthy (and they should be able to say that if it's what they believe) and another child calls them a bigot for their opinion what would you say about respect?

I would say the second child showed a lack of respect, not the first child. Many people probably think just the opposite.

If I say that I think BDSM is weird probably no one will accuse me of hating anyone.
If I say that I think homosexuality is weird I probably will be accused of hating gay people, being a bigot (or being afraid of them) - this is the kind of mental coercion that kids are facing on this issue.

Originally posted by Pinke
Children don't need to know any more than 'people are sometimes gay, it's none of your business really, religion disagrees with it, the end.'

Basically agree, it isn't just religious people though.

Originally posted by Pinke
Apologies but I'm generalizing in one way ... but you did just agree with a debate point from a Cardinal which effectively boils down to ... OMGS the homos are coming! The homos are coming?!!!11!! .

Nonsense, his view was nothing of the sort and I've heard athiests make the same observation.

Originally posted by Pinke
IYes and no.

They should be taught to do it in a respectful way. I'm sure you somewhat agree but a child saying 'homosexuality is abnormal and unhealthy' is no different from me saying 'religious people are all nutters'.

Is there a respectful way to tell a homosexual that you think homosexuality is abnormal, weird, unhealthy etc. etc. Everytime I've seen someone try, no matter how, they're immediately called a bigot, a homophobe etc. etc. There seems to be zero respect for any dissent on this matter and that is how it is being handled in most schools.

Originally posted by Pinke
Should we start having classes for our KKK members too? Perhaps we should spend an hour of class discussing how it's okay to hate black people? It's a legitimate belief!

And here is part of the problem, lack of respect... when it comes to homosexuality you either think it's perfectly normal and healthy or you get compared to racists and it's suggested that you must hate gay people (or be afraid of them). This is intellectually dishonest but it's a very effective way of silencing opinions that you would rather not hear/discuss.