IMHO - Legalize Physician Assisted Suicide

Recently there have been a few threads that have brought up suicide, depression, illness, etc. I thought I’d start a thread about legalizing physician assisted suicide. Feel free to join in and either agree or disagree with me. Present your own case for, or against, physician assisted suicide if you like.

I’m sure I’ll get ripped apart piece by piece … but whatever. This is how I feel at this time.

My case for physician assisted suicide.
Suicide stats

My position: Physician assisted suicide should be legal to any adult; in any country on the planet; for any medical reason; at any time they wish. Remember the movie ‘Soylent Green’? Picture the kind of centers like in ‘Soylent Green’.

Reason for my position: Basic human compassion and decency. If at all possible everyone should have a right to decide how they wish to leave this world. Of course, we can’t do anything about death by disasters like tidal waves, car accidents, earthquakes, etc. I’m talking about adults who are terminally ill, chronically ill, tormented by medical or mental conditions (mental conditions are many times medical .. but you know what I mean). People who just can’t continue are the ones I’m talking about. It is CRUEL to force people to stay alive when they want to move on. Example - It was CRUEL to force Terry Shiavo to be starved to death. She’s not alone. People are being left (and forced) to rot and die all over the planet.

Religion in government implications: Yes I understand that some countries are governed by laws based upon religious beliefs. Ireland has its Catholic influence as does much of South America. Middle Eastern and Islamic countries are highly influenced by their religious beliefs. And so on and so forth. I’m not saying that physician assisted suicide should be forced upon these countries. Educating people so perhaps the governments could open up and give their citizens freedom of choice in their lives would be optimal.

Some of where it’s legal now: In the USA a handful of states allow it but it is only for those who are terminally ill and within 6 months of death. Also, you usually have to be a resident of that state for a certain length of time. Dignitas in Switzerland has ‘tourist assisted suicide’. (not sure if it’s still up and running). People from anywhere in the world could (can?) go and have their lives ended. Dignitas had (has?) a panel to approve or disapprove of the request. They say that many people who are approved never return to the clinic and change their minds after the waiting period. But travel to Dignitas is expensive as is the ‘assistance’ and so this option is open to a very small demographic.

Afterlife implications: Yes I understand that many religions believe that if you commit suicide you go to hell. I understand the many near death experiences that people have had who have committed suicide just to be brought back to life (against their wills obviously) and that in these cases many people have experienced hell. I get that. But a sweeping generalization that everyone who commits suicide is selfish and therefore hell bound is absurd. Each soul is a universe unto itself and, if you believe in a God and judgment, will be judged individually and not by a sweeping generalized statement.

Personal experience with afterlife/suicide: My high school friend suffered from clinical depression. He was on medications for years and years. It was a living hell for him. He committed suicide (by gas fumes from a car in a garage). I didn’t know he had died and was living over a thousand miles away. At the time of his death I suddenly felt him .. his presence .. a warm soul-hug .. and I knew it was from him and it was full of him, peace, and happiness. My personal experience tells me that everyone committing suicide do not go to hell. Some do and some don’t. It’s all individual.

The karma/reincarnation element: Yep, I’ve read that suicides just have to come right back and work out their karma for whatever situation they were trying to get away from. I have no idea if that’s true or not. I can’t see how an 85 year old cancer patient taking advantage of physician assisted suicide to be rid of the pain and the indignity that comes with a body rotting, would have to come back and live another life of 85 years in order just to go through that horrible death. Who knows. Anyways, I’m aware of this karma/reincarnation element that may, or may not be, really happening. If it’s real, then physician assisted suicide is bad for the person. If it’s not real, then it could be good.

In some cultures: In some cultures suicide is considered honorable and selfless (depending on the situation). Such as in Japan. Some native American Indian tribes thought so too. (don’t know if they still do). Etc etc culture and suicide

Children and physician assisted suicide: I admit this is a hard one. I don’t have all the answers here. If a child is terminally ill, chronically ill and in constant pain, mentally depressed or mentally ill and not able to be stabilized …. Then I think we should be open to allowing physician assisted suicide for any child who shows the maturity or the understanding of what decision they are making. GREAT CARE has to be taken to insure that they are not being pushed into it or talked into it by tired or disappointed care givers/parents. Like I said, this is a hard one. And I could easily change my mind in this area. I’m not sure about it.

I understand this could be a slippery slope. Caution, caution, and more caution would be necessary.

Caution: I understand caution has to be in order. Great care has to be taken to make sure the person wishing for Physician Assisted Suicide isn’t being pressured into it for any reason - That family members aren’t pushing grandpa out the door in order to get an inheritance; that parents are not just off’ing kids that aren’t up to their health standards or that they don’t want to bother with; that teens don’t want to commit suicide because they didn’t get invited to their Junior Prom, that insurance companies weren’t making it impossible for people who want medical care so those people see suicide as the only way out, that ‘death panels’ (and don’t kid yourselves, there WILL be death panels to ration health care eventually) don’t push people to an early grave who don’t want to go, etc etc There would have to be a panel at each center in order to be cautious. The wish would have to come from the person. This is for THEM and not anyone else. It would be hard in some cases to know if the person wishing Physician Assisted Suicide was being pressured and if there is any doubt, then the panel would have to say ‘no’ to assisting that person.

I’m not pretending to have all the answers and I don’t have a business plan in place for Physician Assisted Suicide centers around the world. I just think it’s more humane and compassionate to help people who want to move on, to be able to do so in a pain free and dignified manner.

Permanent solution to a temporary problem: Before anyone says that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem …. My response is that a generalized sweeping statement like that is just plain wrong. Some suicides are due to temporary problems that seem overwhelming to people. I get that. But many, many others are because of pain and suffering beyond what we can imagine and modern medicine isn’t helping (or the side effects are unbearable, etc). That’s what I’m talking about.

The selfish card: Yes, some suicides can be selfish. So what? People are selfish. I know a fella who committed suicide and left 2 grade school kids behind. Those left behind had financial problems, emotional problems, etc. Yes that was selfish of him to do this. BUT it is selfish of people who are against physician assisted suicide to want to keep people here who are suffering mentally or physically and have no way out. The selfish thing can run in both directions.

I won’t go into the finances of this. If someone else wants to go into how the health care system would benefit, and how money would be saved, and rationing avoided, etc …. Go ahead. That gets too close to the death panels (for those who want to be alive and get medical care but will not be allowed to) and I can’t put a price tag on a human life like that. I don’t care if ‘the system’ saves 100K for each suicide .. or whatever … the money doesn’t matter to me.

Well, that’s it really. A lot of suffering people could benefit from physician assisted suicide. At least IMHO they could benefit from it.

I think that there should be a legalization of physician assisted suicide. And I'm sure they would find a better name for it. The reason for this is because we cannot as a species, understand that we are not one connected. To see someone in pain, is NOT the same things as being in pain.

If someone does feel as they have a "true" connection with someone who no longer wishes to remain in pain, whether it be physical or mental, if it were true, then the other person should be able to help lift some of that pain. Though this is not the case for many that have taken their lives. Ego plays a very big part in taking personal the fact that someone took "their" own life.

When someone is devastated as a result of losing a loved on to suicide it can be for many reasons, such as anger, resentment, and even relief. What people dont see on the flip side it is "someone"else's life, not yours. Our brains aren't identical, the way we except love, denial, acceptance, grief, and just an all around hard life, is different. Example, look at the people that come to sites like this. This isn't for everyone, and people cannot see what we see in coming to a place like this. As we cannot understand people who choose to live in the dark, and denial of the world around them.

We dont want people that we care about to take their own life, whether it be with a physician, or other. We dont want to grieve, we dont want to have to look at what we missed, we dont want to care for the person, but we dont want to take responsibility for playing a part in why someone feels that the only way for relief is death.

Yes and of course their is love, compassion, taking the time to help someone in need. Sometimes all the love in the world cannot prevent such a thing, but I can assure that it can slow it down a bit. We are our own person. No one should have the right to speak on the behalf or against another wishes. Whether we like it or not. Its not our place, never has been, and never should be.

Peace, NRE.

The thing is when you give Doctors the power to give assisted suicide that power can be abused... I agree that if you have a chronic disease that is getting worse and you don't want to live with it THAT should be your choice... Just giving doctors a go on helping with that is the hard part because what if they start using it on people who didn't really want it used on them but the doctor said that they told them secretly? A persons family might not be able to be told on grounds they wouldn't like the idea... So you get into some fine line areas that I do not think the DOCTOR should have..... I'm not sure the solution but I know giving doctors a way to legally kill you could be VERY dangerous... They already hold your life in their hand.. I don't know if I want a doctor playing with that drip....

If somebody wants it I have no problem with it. If I was dying from some cancer that is eating my body away, bankrupting my family etc then I would be more then happy to tell the doc to load me up with a deadly cocktail and move on. I see nothing wrong with it but I do believe people should get a battery of psychological tests and such before it is being administered. They would have to include several strict regulations IMO to make it work dealing with age, mental state etc.

I don't know if i'm a fan of this, i mean i see where you are coming from and all, but i think it would de-value life.
It's like "oh now we have suicide booths, life must not be worth that much if we have created suicide stations"

When you legally put the option of suicide into the world, i think many people would see that as a threat to the beauty that is life.

Now if we found a way to "re-boot" a mind, then that would be an amazing option. Especially if you could load the mind with language, and motor skills and personality much like in the matrix where information was loaded into Neo's head.

Excellent and well thought out views.

I cannot really see much more to add. Obviously such things would need a process and a clear line of protocol to follow to be able to ensure that such things are being done honorably and there are ways to protect the doctors and the family from things like manslaughter charges, etc.

In addition, certain protections should be in place to accomodate end of life planning and making sure that affairs should be in order, as well as making sure the life insurance agencies can adapt.

As for the religious aspects.. well, in the USA, at least, this should not be an issue. In fact, the feds and states should allow the process by default and only have regulations in place to ensure that things are being done on the level. Religious institutions should have no say in the matter.

As for kids and the mentally impaired... yeah, I think it is a bit of a sticky wicket... They would have to make sre that they are fully aware of the implications of their decision. So yeah, mandatory psych evaluations.

As for the oath of "Do No Harm", that can be handled by making this into a specialty. Doctors within this specialty can ammend their oath to allow for them to provide the ability for the body to die peacefully.

My stand is if the person believes they want to kill themselves for thier own reasons, I dont think society should damn them to some stupid label they give them..

"As for kids and the mentally impaired... yeah, I think it is a bit of a sticky wicket... They would have to make sre that they are fully aware of the implications of their decision. So yeah, mandatory psych evaluations. "

Why sometimes this can be as hard or harder than dealing with a terminal illness.. Some people are not fortunate to get help for thier issues..

reply to post by FlyersFan


This reminds me of bug catchers, males that catch hiv on purpose or like, to commit suicide as they where gay.

I just wonder how many in society have even heard of this, and they have debated whether this was real or not.

Some times in life i would of been better if i had contracted hiv, or aids, as at least i would of been able to live some sort of life, and not have the hassles i did to conform to heterosexual adult life, which peopel tried to force on me without my consent.

I am not saying i wanted to commit suicide, i just wanted a way to live my life free of the hassles.

I know it sounds bad, i am not surprised there are so called bug catchers out there, as the world is a horrible place, and some of us are given like death sentences by society just for not being like all these others who claim to be normal.

I thank god i was not normal, but i can understand why some want assisted suicide, or are bug catchers. People just want to live there lifes but unfortunately police, gov and council peopel can organise alot of hate for you if your not what they think is normal, i.e heterosexual.

I hope this is not off topic, as i think bug catchers are in teh same topic of assisted suicide.

Originally posted by ThichHeaded
My stand is if the person believes they want to kill themselves for thier own reasons, I dont think society should damn them to some stupid label they give them..

"As for kids and the mentally impaired... yeah, I think it is a bit of a sticky wicket... They would have to make sre that they are fully aware of the implications of their decision. So yeah, mandatory psych evaluations. "

Why sometimes this can be as hard or harder than dealing with a terminal illness.. Some people are not fortunate to get help for thier issues..

edit on 11/7/2010 by ThichHeaded because: (no reason given)

You got a point but the chronic illness person would NOT b e committing suicide.. The doctor would administer it.
Thats why they could not convict doctor kavorkian on murder charges,because he did not administer the death drip. The patient did. That would be him helping with the suicide.. When you give doctors the drip to hook up AND the clicker to administer it the patient is no LONGER actually suiciding..

Gotta say more about what was said previously by another poster...
If someone wants to end their life .. it's THEIR life .. not ours. We don't have a right to interfer with how they wish to live or die. If they want to end their pain, they should be able to. We don't walk in their shoes and most of the time we don't know how serious they are suffering. It's THEIR life.

Originally posted by andy1033
i think bug catchers are in teh same topic of assisted suicide.

You are welcome to see a connection. But for the life of me .... I just don't.
Most bug catchers get a thrill playing with death. There are other aspects as well, of course.
But those who want legalized physician assisted suicide want to end pain - physical or mental.
I'm not seeing any similarity at all.

reply to post by thecinic


She asked if it should be allowed..

In my situation if they opened a clinic saying anyone who wanted to suicide come see me.. I would probably go there and see what was up, then I would weigh the options, then I would probably do it because it dont involve a gun, pills, or some crazy getup i can think of...

It would be clean, and nobody has to worry how screwed up my body was..

Is that the answer you were looking for?

reply to post by FlyersFan


I completely agree with your position on this, FF. S&F. We are taught that human life is sacred and that we should hang onto it at all costs. But I don't really know why we continue to think that. Life is wonderful and beautiful and I LOVE mine, but there are people and I've known people who were dying and wanted their life to end, but it wouldn't. It's a terrible thing to force a person to do. We don't force our DOGS to do this.

My only difference from your opinion would be children. I think it should be a legal "contract" and I don't think kids (under 21?) should have the power to end their lives. They don't really know what life IS yet. There's no guarantee that they'd know at 21, but I think there would be a lot of teens who would end their lives over a boyfriend if suicide didn't have so much negative dogma attached to it.

Great post!

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


I agree to an extent. However if we allow our young to choose to lose their life in war, shouldn't they also be allowed to choose to lose their life in a different form of battle? When we go to war we don't know if we will win or lose. They are all battles, are they not? Just differerent view points and sides of physical and emotional battles.

Originally posted by ThichHeaded
It would be clean, and nobody has to worry how screwed up my body was..

That's what I'm thinking about Physician Assisted Suicide. It is in an environment that family members or friends wouldn't find a mangled or dead body from the way suicide is carried out today. People who just need out end up leaving a mess behind for someone to find. Even if it's a 'clean' suicide (pills, car garage, etc), it's still a dead body for someone to find and it's a shock for them no matter how much they think they are prepared.

I'm telling ya' ... Soylent Green got it right.

As for the kids and suicide ... again it's a sticky subject and I'm not fully solid in a position. Kids under 18 who are chronically ill and/or terminally ill should have a right to end the pain but they don't understand life yet, etc etc. And there is the pressure from caregivers factor on young people who many times still can't make up their minds.

But don't forget, kids experience extreme pain and extreme mental fatigue due to mental health issues (depression) just like adults. They should have a right to end that pain as well. I'm just not so solid on the issue for kids. There is a lot of gray fuzz in this area, ya' know?

They say suicide is a crime. I say it's a crime not to have physician assisted suicide for any adult who needs it ... anywhere in the world .... for any medical or mental (which is medical, really) reason they deem too hard to live with.

I totally agree. No one should be forced to live life if they don't feel like.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
But don't forget, kids experience extreme pain and extreme mental fatigue due to mental health issues (depression) just like adults.

I would probably be willing to lower the age to 18 (isn't that the age people can join the military?) but perhaps anyone under that age would have to wait a certain time... A waiting period - to be sure it's what they want - maybe with some counseling... But then you'd still have kids doing it themselves. You're right, It's sticky. I wouldn't want to be the person denying them the right OR giving them the go ahead...

I thought this ATS thread was kind of related to this subject .. so I'm posting a link here ..
ATS Thread - discussion on CPR

This conversation came up elsewhere so I"m bumping this thread for the discussion.

I've had two situations where I've watched someone die a slow, horrible death. In both cases the hospital restrained them from committing "self-harm". The first was friend's mother who had some sort of cancer or growth in her brain/head. the details are fuzzy because i was young at the time. Even through morphine she was in agony. She would bang her head on the bed railing to try and knock herself out so she could rest. They restrained her and all she could do was lie there and suffer. Rumor has it the hospital might have ended her suffering "accidentally" with too much morphine. No one cared, because even if it was true, it was a blessing.

The second was a man dying of emphysema. Like slowly being strangled to death. He tried removing his mask and they restrained him. He begged, cried, pleaded with each of us for death. "Turn it off. *wheeze*I won't be mad. *wheeze*." Most of our relatives and his friends stopped visiting him because they couldn't take his begging anymore. He died poorly.

Which is why I have a living will and have made my wishes absolutely clear to my family. I'm not wasting away. I'm pretty sure I'll end it way before it gets that bad. I say pretty sure because what I say in health may change in the face of death. Maybe every last second would be more precious to me than any pain. I don't know. But it should be my call.

originally posted by: Foundryman
The second was a man dying of emphysema.

My father died of lung issues in 2011 (on my birthday). He had some kind of mask on that forced oxygen into him. He was going to die but they had that thing on him anyways. He should have been left alone and 'helped' to die rather than struggle.