Request for policy clarification: Re; Chat

Greetings,
I spent quite a while trying to figure out where to drop this. If it is incorrect-my apologies.

A few us us chat regulars are rather concerned by recent events and we were hoping for some clarity. Not in the form of who did what mind you. I had asked a mod in chat a similar question tonight and was told mods couldnt talk about people or reasons for punishment. This implied to me that the culprets have been dealt with.

But;

Our concern is more in line with the chat message/MoTD style greeting that is now posted stating a zero policy towards the ToC- Including account termination-which I doubt anyone has issue with expressly. The concern comes in the form of the arbitraryness of the ToC enforcement. This is in no way saying the mods are arbitrary beyond that which is expected-this site has a wide range of contentious topics. There will ALWAYS be stuff that some regard as abussive or offensive or hateful etc. thus it requires a lot of judgement calls.

To cite an an example of this is the thread "Being Gay Isn't Natural". This thread has been going awhile and is 40+ pages into it. Given the entire thread is nothing but saying "Gays are icky and against god' It is hard to see this as anything but abusive and or a hate post towards any readers who happen to be Gay. In fact the poster even goes into realms within the thread that could easily get a guilty verdict in a Sexual Harrassment case.

Yet.. The thread remains. In this part I DO actually agree with. So long as people are allowed to fight the claims on equal footing-I will not whine.

Again, I mention this to illustrate how hate speech and abusive posts remain via arbitrary judgment. Without meaning to imply a negative value on that.

This leads to our concerns with chat. Chat is a lot less formal than a forum post. It tends to hold it's own forms of ettiquete. From an outside perspective I am certain that it looks like we abuse each other as we do mock each other between comments on a post or other event one of us run across. Even when we snarl at each other. It is short term contention in the manner siblings fight. We are using what is basically affectionate trash talking. It is easy to see how a new comer to the room could misconstrue.

Thus we are left wondering if someone without familiarty with the way we interact will come along, view it as something it isn't and start beating people with the ban hammer inspired by a knee jerk reaction.

Please clarify the Chat situation as currently-to many of us would prefer our little weirdo family in chat, not being broken up.

If it is something specific that happened please let us know.

As a person who recently discovered chat and would like to know what the specific standards are, as I am eager to participate and follow the rules, I can only add that a list of things to avoid would be helpful.

In my situation mentioning that I was drinking a beer made people nervous, and caused good hearted folks to warn me that such talk was forbidden. As an adult, I would never have thought that such a statement was problematic.

So, in short, here here.

reply to post by lordtyp0


Lordtyp0.....

Notwithstanding I am of the impression the subject matter that caused the "departure" of the members pertained to an obviously "risky" area of discussion.....

I believe you have done the correct thing in requesting clarification of the "instant ban" potential as per that chat "greeting message".

It would be a shame to see a "good" member make a mistake & pay for it permanently.

Kind regards
Maybe...maybe not

Having been banned from chat in the past for talking about marijauna, I can understand the reasons for the strict T&C. An innocent comment can lead to a discussion that can veer off and quickly go into areas against the T&C. I now just make sure I steer clear of certain subjects on chat and try not to get into any arguments. It can make for a sterile chat in the true sense of the word, but I understand and believe the T&C do provide a good frame work to work within.

Explanation: Flagged!

Here ya go... for those members who desire simplicity...

Simplified Terms and Conditions of Membership for the AboveTopSecret.com Message Board(s) (by AboveTopSecret.com) [ATS]

(Condensed version, see the detailed Terms & Conditions for full explanations for each item.)


By using our discussion board, you indicate you agree to all terms.

We can't be responsible for member posts in a live, real-time environment.

We do our best to make sure everything runs properly.

Our only requirement is a functioning email to register. See our Privacy Policy for the list of what we won't do with your email.

Everything you do on our website(s) is subject to these terms and conditions.


By becoming a member of these domains, you agree to the following:


1). Posting: You shouldn't lie.

1a) Offensive Content: Don't be a jerk.

1b.) Profanity: You shouldn't swear.

1c.) Intellectual Property: You shouldn't steal content.

1d.) Cross-Posting: You shouldn't spam the web.

1e.) Recruitment/Solicitation: You won't gather personal info of members for any reason.

1f.) Relevant Content: You will stay on-topic in threads.

1g.) Political Baiting: Don't be a jerk.

1h.) Spamming: Don't be a jerk.

1i.) Language: You should post in english.

1j.) Video links/embeds: Describe the stuff in your links.


2) Behavior: Don't be a jerk.

2a.) Identity Spoofing: You shouldn't lie.

2b.) HaXor: No computer hacking stuff.

2c.) Multiple Accounts: Don't be a jerk.

2d.) Forum Gangs: Don't be a jerk.

2e.) Illicit Activity: Don't be a stoner here.

2f.) Private Messages: Don't spam our members.

2g.) Board Wars: Don't be a jerk.

2h.) Public Affection: Be discrete.


3) Content Copyright: Your posts are yours, be we can use them.

3a) Content Distribution: Share and share alike.

3b) DMCA Enforcement: We will protect what you post here.


4) Advertising: No posts advertising your stuff.

4a) Unauthorized Marketing: ATTENTION MARKETERS: No posts advertising your stuff.

4b) Ad Blockers: Don't block our only source of income.


5) Personal Responsibilities: Don't be a jerk.

5a) Unauthorized Access: Don't be a hacker.

5b) Cooperation: Help us help you.


6) Disclaimer: We can't see everything.

6a) Disclosure: If the feds want something, they can get it.

6b) Neutrality: We endorse no topics.

6c) No Guarantee: We do the best we can.


7) Violation If you screw up, you might be banned.


8) Right of Community Management We just might ban trolls on-sight.

And for those of us who like to forensically audit the technical details....

Terms And Conditions Of Use (by SimonGrey) [ATS]


Specifically to do with Chat...

1e.) Recruitment/Solicitation:

i) You will not use your membership at The Above Network, LLC site(s) for any type of recruitment to any causes whatsoever. You will not post, use the chat feature, use videos, or use the private message system to disseminate advertisements, chain letters, petitions, pyramid schemes, or any kind of solicitation for political action, social action, letter campaigns, or related online and/or offline coordinated actions of any kind.

ii) You will not use the discussion boards, the chat system or the private message system to collect or ask for the personal information (data mining) about forum members, including email addresses and "real life" names, in any manner whatsoever, or for any reason whatsoever.

iii) You will not post, use the chat feature or use the private message system to solicit members of The Above Network, LLC on behalf of another message board, online community or competitor. You will not attempt to use your membership to encourage or lure other members in any way to other websites or discussion boards in competition with The Above Network, LLC. Doing so will result in removal of your post(s) and immediate termination of your account.

1i.) Language: The dominant language of our users and moderation staff is English. In order to promote a smooth-running environment and fair enforcement of these Terms & Conditions, you agree not to post or chat in any language other than English.

4) Advertising: You will not advertise or promote other discussion boards, chat systems, online communities or other websites on ATS within posts, private messages, avatars or signatures without prior written permission from The Above Network, LLC. You will not choose a username that is the same as website domain, subdomain, or URL for which you are associated. Doing so will result in removal of your post(s) and immediate termination of your account.

ATS Legal [ATS]

Jerk (slang definition) [thefreedictionary.com]

jerk 1 (jûrk)
v. jerked, jerk·ing, jerks
[Edited by OmegaLogos to redact unrequired text]
5. Slang A foolish, rude, or contemptible person.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Origin unknown.]

Personal Disclosure: I see the ATS Chat Pub room as a place similar to how the Highlanders Immortal "There can be only one!" crowd treated the sacredness of Hallowed ground! [they couldn't each other fight there...EVER! and if you've seen Highlander 3 then you'll KNOW why! :@@" ] and therefor it is supposed [IMO] to be both a safe place to relax and let ones guard down a bit [members should not overly take advantage of this fact!] and to also communicate and socialize in a jovial light hearted way even if and when facts and opinions are being bantered around in a passionately serious manner occasionally between rival members! [teasing occasionally requires slightly taking advantage of someone... and there is teasing and then there is bullying! Do you know the difference? ]

P.S. If there is no middle ground to go meet upon peacefully , then there is only totally entrenched positions and the intervening and univiting no-mans land with its sharp, long, hard, unforgivingly brutal and nasty bayonet point of the explosive and lethal battlefront! Watchout for savage shell shock and don't get yourself shot, blown up and or gassed... oh and keep your spell checker locked and loaded for gramma nazi's OK! :shk:

reply to post by lordtyp0


Excellent post Lordtyp0, and I'm eagerly awaiting an answer from a mod.

Being a regular in chat means that yes, we do adapt a certain informality in our communication with each other, but at the end of the day, we still do adhere to the overall T&C's set out by TPTB.

Cheers
Shane

Lord

Well I will say the chat room sometimes gets a little out of hand. The sexual innuendos that are made sometimes get to be a little much and quite annoying.

I am pretty much always logged into ATS and chat and I do watch chat, for sheer enjoyment esp when there is an argument or interesting convo going on and some of the stuff I see in there even when a mod is in there is surprising. I know mods are people and can't always watch every conversation but to me it seems like a few members test the mods to see what they can get away with. I have seen people get booted for it and then go around and complain or ask why they were booted. I mean if you are going to break T&C after being told not to or if you are going to mock the mods then you should be booted.

Also why can you say as$ in chat?? Please someone tell my why that curse word is allowed and others aren't. That is the one thing that puzzled me with the censors.

It is quite simple. The T&C apply to chat just as it does the board. If you can not talk about it on the boards, you can not talk about it in chat. Simple.

Follow the ATS Terms and Conditions of Use and there will be no problems. Many many many members follow the T&C in chat and never once have an issue.

reply to post by lordtyp0

To cite an an example of this is the thread "Being Gay Isn't Natural". This thread has been going awhile and is 40+ pages into it. Given the entire thread is nothing but saying "Gays are icky and against god' It is hard to see this as anything but abusive and or a hate post towards any readers who happen to be Gay. In fact the poster even goes into realms within the thread that could easily get a guilty verdict in a Sexual Harrassment case.

You will also notice there have been many staff actions on that thread.

If what you say on the boards will be actioned (against T&C) then it would be actioned in chat too due to being against T&C.

Its very simple and easy

This leads to our concerns with chat. Chat is a lot less formal than a forum post. It tends to hold it's own forms of ettiquete. From an outside perspective I am certain that it looks like we abuse each other as we do mock each other between comments on a post or other event one of us run across. Even when we snarl at each other. It is short term contention in the manner siblings fight. We are using what is basically affectionate trash talking. It is easy to see how a new comer to the room could misconstrue.

It is a lot less formal- thus the off topic convos. However, chaters still must abide by the T&C. Higher standards than say AOL chat? Yep! But ATS is held to higher standards than most communities out there.

reply to post by lordtyp0


It's rather simple, really.

Don't be insulting toward other members. Doing so will get your ATS account terminated.

Don't be disruptive of those attempting to have a conversation in chat. Doing so will get your chat privileges terminated.


There are many expressions of opinion on ATS that some may find offensive (including me), however, unless directed at a specific member, such opinions are free expression under our terms and conditions.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
reply to post by lordtyp0

 

It's rather simple, really.

Don't be insulting toward other members. Doing so will get your ATS account terminated.

Don't be disruptive of those attempting to have a conversation in chat. Doing so will get your chat privileges terminated.


There are many expressions of opinion on ATS that some may find offensive (including me), however, unless directed at a specific member, such opinions are free expression under our terms and conditions.

Thank you for the input-and no, I was not and am not intending this as being one of those whiny fight threads. The items I was primarily confused about is the Behavior section of the ToC. Given the nature of the site, and the conversations that inevitably creep up: There will always be bruised egos and hurt feelings. I am sure you guys get bombarded with such tear stained emails. Given that chat is an ad-don item and it's fluctuation over the past while-it is easy to see how it could be seen as a grey zone-something people don't want to deal with but still has use in the form of live shows and similar interactive functions.

It is difficult to get a handle on what is going on as it seems bans are happening more and more often-with veteran and long time standing contributers.. With almost nothing to indicate what occurred. Then the entry greeting that appeared.

Sort of left the ground rumbling with aftershocks and a whole lot of confusion.

Hey, I agree

The confusion is reaching a level that cannot be ignored. How about coming into chat sometime to clarify things? Please don't sit on the side lines like some mods. Engage us!

reply to post by shamus78


Time for sleep. Have a good one all.
Till Weds

But what about the beer comment? I see talk of booze ll over the boards so it should be ok in chat.

Originally posted by shamus78
The confusion is reaching a level that cannot be ignored.

What part is confusing? Seems pretty straightforward to me.

What you see when you first log into chat...

When you enter chat on AboveTopSecret.com you agree that a more strict and decisive interpretation of our Terms and Conditions will apply. Any activity within this chat service that is deemed to be abusive, insulting, demeaning, or otherwise casting aspersions on other members of ATS, in addition to the discussion of any topic defined as off-limits or the posting of links to sites focused on such topics, will result in an immediate account termination without warning or recourse. ----- Additionally, this is a chat facility offered for the the users of a site (ATS) that aspires to a higher-level of discourse and conversation than nearly all other such online venues. This is not IRC, AOL chat, or Chat Roulette. Juvenile habits from other such chat destinations seen here will result in the termination of your ability to use the chat, without warning or recourse. ----- Respect this site, respect this chat, and participate as you would in a room full of like-minded strangers in real life: manners, respect, and civility.

It seems crystal clear to me... And if you aren't sure, I'd avoid a given topic...

Originally posted by Hefficide

As a person who recently discovered chat and would like to know what the specific standards are, as I am eager to participate and follow the rules, I can only add that a list of things to avoid would be helpful.

In my situation mentioning that I was drinking a beer made people nervous, and caused good hearted folks to warn me that such talk was forbidden. As an adult, I would never have thought that such a statement was problematic.

So, in short, here here.

Even though mods have clearly been in this thread this keeps getting ignored.

So I am going to assume since beer is legal it is ok to talk about beer because it is discussed a lot on the boards and the mods just said what goes on the boards is the same that goes on in chat.

I have a feeling that is the closest to ananswer we are gonna get on the beer topic.

Yes as adults drinking beer is acceptable and how silly if you cannot even talk about beer.

I'm sorry if I offend someone by saying "I dont drink", as I remember, its only me who said that during the chat while everybody drink , but nevertheless I think that is not the actual case.

Anyway, since the chat acceptable etiquette and discussion raised to a higher level, it didnt fit as a chat anymore. Consider rename it to "Conference", where a formal discussion can be perform and not misunderstood. Also the problem actually can be avoided by creating user chatroom by themselves.

I also would like to inform fellow chatters, that I will reduce my chat access by my own personal choice. The TnC is good, but strictly enforcing it does not suit my personality and taste of chatting (yeah, so what ) ).

Good bye space cowboys

Ok...

Whats the issue here?

Are people saying that they can't discuss subjects without having to break the T&C? If so - how do you manage on the main board?

Its entirely possible to have a conversation about any subject without breaking the T&C. I just don't see the issues that people are having. It takes considerable thought to type something out as you have to read and comprehend what is on the screen in front of you, interpret it and then respond.

The only thing thats being enforced is the T&C. Theres nothing new about that at all.

reply to post by hotbakedtater


What am I missing here? We cannot talk about beer in chat? You might as well rename chat to UPTIGHT. I am all for punishing those that act like a moron on chat, i have met quite a few, but even thou they were moronic, they did not break the t&c. I am not sure what I missed, I do not have all the information, but if I am reading the 1st grade chalk board correctly it is saying that when your in the public chat room, hence the public part, we are suppose to just discuss ats topics 24/7? I do not understand, what is juvenile behavior on chat? Who judges what that is? I am just concerned about the people I have met on chat,disappearing now, I understand their are miserable people all over the world, and their function in life it would appear, would be to share their misery, so in a valent effort for me to battle this when I really care, I will make my own room in chat, and I would suggest that to my other friends who do not want to be afraid of getting banned for talking about drinking a beer or smoking a cigarette make their own rooms as well. I understand we have kids on chat "OBVIOUSLY" And they need a baby sitter, but chat to me has always been fun most times, i dont want to go into something called chat and feel like I am in a classroom, and even if you want this chat to be like a classroom discussing ats topics, you will have debates, and then we'll get another Paragraph on the rule board. Telling us how to debate.

chat is starting to sound like lawyer talk.

gives hh, a pile driver!!