I don't want to believe in time travel.

Originally posted by tauristercus


I'm sure that the paper you referenced makes fascinating reading and is absolutely full of interesting science/physics ... however, a simpler and more intuitive reason for my stating that (backwards) time travel would be vehemently opposed by nature is for the crucial fact that the inherent and unpredictable nature of quantum mechanics/theory and especially the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, would come crashing down in a major fail.

[edit on 29/6/10 by tauristercus]

But even though quantum mechanics has the uncertainty principle then it doesn't necessarily mean it directly disproves backwards time travel.

I on the other hand, as many of you already know, am completely for time travel and created my own thesis on it.

I use a solution which also includes quantum mechanics to help produce my effect.

Currently I am trying to calculate the gravitational field that my object creates, as I already know density.

Originally posted by Mumbotron
reply to post by 11:11

 

Scientists have postulated that there are particles which flow in the opposite direction through time from us. That being said, if we could somehow manipulate a stream of these particles, it is likely we could send ourselves a message in the past, provided we have the equipment to detect the stream.

There has been some theorizing that antimatter is matter that is running backward in time. It is also stated that each time they go interact the anti particle goes back in time and the particle goes forward in time.

Again theorizing.

I have had a few odd personal experiences that are related to time-travel. Although these are nothing more than personal testimony and those tend to receive much ridicule on ATS. Maybe someday I can share them without being labeled insane, schizophrenic, or a liar. I know personally that time travel is possible, and is happening.

reply to post by DJM8507


Although your personal experiences cannot be proof to other individuals, I would still find it very interesting to hear what claims you propose!

If you are willing to speak of them, I'll be glad to listen!

Kind regards

I'm gonna agree with the OP

I Don't Want to Believe in Time Travel Either.
(I exlude going to the future..that's fine...take a nap...wake up later...poof)

No, going to the past is a bad thing = Paradox.
Lets not do it. We can't do it. If it is possible, then it has been done, and we are living in an altered world. If the world can be altered, how many times until it splits into a multiverse? I dont' buy into the mutliverse idea (mutlivers as in the movie 'ONE' mot multiverse as in string theory and multidimensianal...that I'll wait and see what the jury says...but multiverse like the TV show 'sliders'...I'm not buying into one minute)

Traveling back in time, if it has been done, and we are living with its results well that means predestination...as in: we have no free choice...all of our decisions and actions are preditermined...because for the future time traveler(yes the one that is the result of our specific timeline) our future is over, and set in stone.
I don't think that way...I can't.

I can think of man building a machine that will send info (eventually possibly people) back to the time of that machines creation....

skip ahead .... a bunch of my rambling....and you get

Time travelers coming back to the point of the machines origin and messing up the timeline so much you get a major out of control singularity and our universe implodes. Crap...then, does that mean we never even existed?

Therefore, I don't want to believe in timetravel...it hurts my brain.


For the same reasons I doubt we will see faster than light travel....but thats another day of mindless rambling.

[edit on 30-6-2010 by Xcouncil=wisdom]

Originally posted by Gentill Abdulla
But even though quantum mechanics has the uncertainty principle then it doesn't necessarily mean it directly disproves backwards time travel.

Sorry but I have to disagree with you.
There is NO way that quantum mechanics AND backwards time travel could possibly co-exist ... the two concepts are mutually exclusive.

As I mentioned earlier, the HUP falls completely apart under backwards time travel and as a direct and immediate corollary, so does quantum mechanics.

However, I'd certainly like to read your reasoning as to why you personally believe quantum mechanics as a theory would survive and remain inviolate under time travel conditions.

Originally posted by tauristercus

Originally posted by Gentill Abdulla
But even though quantum mechanics has the uncertainty principle then it doesn't necessarily mean it directly disproves backwards time travel.

Sorry but I have to disagree with you.
There is NO way that quantum mechanics AND backwards time travel could possibly co-exist ... the two concepts are mutually exclusive.

As I mentioned earlier, the HUP falls completely apart under backwards time travel and as a direct and immediate corollary, so does quantum mechanics.

However, I'd certainly like to read your reasoning as to why you personally believe quantum mechanics as a theory would survive and remain inviolate under time travel conditions.

Just because you can't measure 2 things, such as position and momentum of an electron, simultaneously doesn't mean time travel is impossible.

Originally posted by Gentill Abdulla

Originally posted by tauristercus

Originally posted by Gentill Abdulla
But even though quantum mechanics has the uncertainty principle then it doesn't necessarily mean it directly disproves backwards time travel.

Sorry but I have to disagree with you.
There is NO way that quantum mechanics AND backwards time travel could possibly co-exist ... the two concepts are mutually exclusive.

As I mentioned earlier, the HUP falls completely apart under backwards time travel and as a direct and immediate corollary, so does quantum mechanics.

However, I'd certainly like to read your reasoning as to why you personally believe quantum mechanics as a theory would survive and remain inviolate under time travel conditions.

Just because you can't measure 2 things, such as position and momentum of an electron, simultaneously doesn't mean time travel is impossible.

But that's the inherent problem with backwards time travel, you suddenly DO have the capability of measuring BOTH the moment/position and time/energy of an electron. You can conduct the momentum experiment, wait a bit, then travel back to the same point in time and then conduct the position experiment on the SAME particle ... therefore easily circumventing the HUP (cornerstone of QM) and determining both the position and momentum of that electron.

As I said, you can have time travel OR QM ... but you can't have both ... and I believe that nature will protect QM at all costs and absolutely disallow time travel.

Originally posted by tauristercus


But that's the inherent problem with backwards time travel, you suddenly DO have the capability of measuring BOTH the moment/position and time/energy of an electron. You can conduct the momentum experiment, wait a bit, then travel back to the same point in time and then conduct the position experiment on the SAME particle ... therefore easily circumventing the HUP (cornerstone of QM) and determining both the position and momentum of that electron.

As I said, you can have time travel OR QM ... but you can't have both ... and I believe that nature will protect QM at all costs and absolutely disallow time travel.

But you would have changed the momentum of the object.

AND it would still be harder to determine the position since you observed momentum and changed the accuracy.


[edit on 30-6-2010 by Gentill Abdulla]

Originally posted by Gentill Abdulla

Originally posted by tauristercus


But that's the inherent problem with backwards time travel, you suddenly DO have the capability of measuring BOTH the moment/position and time/energy of an electron. You can conduct the momentum experiment, wait a bit, then travel back to the same point in time and then conduct the position experiment on the SAME particle ... therefore easily circumventing the HUP (cornerstone of QM) and determining both the position and momentum of that electron.

As I said, you can have time travel OR QM ... but you can't have both ... and I believe that nature will protect QM at all costs and absolutely disallow time travel.

But you would have changed the momentum of the object.

AND it would still be harder to determine the position since you observed momentum and changed the accuracy.


[edit on 30-6-2010 by Gentill Abdulla]

You're missing the point here .... let me try to explain with an example.


Lets say that I'm a physicist that just happens to have a time travel machine in another room of my laboratory. I decide to do an experiment whereby I can circumvent the HUP and obtain not only the EXACT momentum of a particular electron, but also obtain it's EXACT position.

Before I start however, I make a rule that if I hear a sound from the time travel room at exactly 1pm, that I will measure the electrons momentum; otherwise I will measure its position instead.

Ok, I wait until it's exactly 1pm ... I DO NOT hear a sound from the time travel room and so I start the experiment by measuring the electrons position. No probs, so far ... the measurement gives me it's position to extremely high accuracy. Naturally, in measuring it's position so ultra-accurately, I have absolutely no chance whatsoever of measuring it's momentum with even slight accuracy ... courtesy of Heisenberg.

Now I jump into my time machine (in the other room) and go back to a time just before the previous position measurement experiment was to be conducted, and I remain in the room. At precisely 1pm I make a loud noise and my "other self" in the experiment room responds to the sound by doing the momentum measurement instead. My "other self" now has the electrons momentum value to an incredibly high accuracy but of course he has no hope whatsoever of knowing its position accurately ... again, thanks to Heisenberg.

But wait .... I now step out of the time travel room and go meet my "other self". Between the two of us, we have now determined to an incredible accuracy both the MOMENTUM and POSITION of that one electron ... at this point the HUP has been violated big time.

Now I realize that the above "thought experiment" needs to be refined significantly - but it's sufficient to demonstrate that the general principal remains that allowing time travel can and will invalidate QM.

Originally posted by tauristercus

You're missing the point here .... let me try to explain with an example.


Lets say that I'm a physicist that just happens to have a time travel machine in another room of my laboratory. I decide to do an experiment whereby I can circumvent the HUP and obtain not only the EXACT momentum of a particular electron, but also obtain it's EXACT position.

Before I start however, I make a rule that if I hear a sound from the time travel room at exactly 1pm, that I will measure the electrons momentum; otherwise I will measure its position instead.

Ok, I wait until it's exactly 1pm ... I DO NOT hear a sound from the time travel room and so I start the experiment by measuring the electrons position. No probs, so far ... the measurement gives me it's position to extremely high accuracy. Naturally, in measuring it's position so ultra-accurately, I have absolutely no chance whatsoever of measuring it's momentum with even slight accuracy ... courtesy of Heisenberg.

Now I jump into my time machine (in the other room) and go back to a time just before the previous position measurement experiment was to be conducted, and I remain in the room. At precisely 1pm I make a loud noise and my "other self" in the experiment room responds to the sound by doing the momentum measurement instead. My "other self" now has the electrons momentum value to an incredibly high accuracy but of course he has no hope whatsoever of knowing its position accurately ... again, thanks to Heisenberg.

But wait .... I now step out of the time travel room and go meet my "other self". Between the two of us, we have now determined to an incredible accuracy both the MOMENTUM and POSITION of that one electron ... at this point the HUP has been violated big time.

Now I realize that the above "thought experiment" needs to be refined significantly - but it's sufficient to demonstrate that the general principal remains that allowing time travel can and will invalidate QM.

But you would not be able to do such a thing because you would be prevented somehow as the universe is predetermined.

You see at the moment of the big bang all variables, constants, universes, and all actions were created.

This means everything is supposed to happen whether or not we time travel.

When we do there will be something stopping us from doing so unless we travel to a different universe which time is different.

Originally posted by MY2Commoncentsworth
reply to post by Faiol

 

Originally posted by Faiol
time travel to the past doesnt exist

if you believe it does, than you believe we are all AI and can be copied at any moment to another reality, and we would have infinite universes

You are not AI. And there has been a concensus building in the scientific community for the last 10 years that time travel is not only possible but that some form of it will be realized in this century.

The laws of physics do not prohibit it, and whenever this may be the case, science fiction eventually becomes science fact.

[edit on 29-6-2010 by MY2Commoncentsworth]

LOL

CONSENSUS in the physics community ... are you NUTS???

scientists have proof that time travel to the future exists, BUT

I would say that the consensus is that time travel to the past doesnt exist, and that was hawking opinion in his 2010 documentary about it

and it makes sense, if you believe in timetravel to the past it would completely kill all our idea of this world, in the sense of us being AI and being recorded every time, thats the only way to access an "old" universe and interact with it

lets assume you did go back to the past in a freaking spaceship, then a person is driving their car, they look up and they see something weird for some reason, or your spaceship interacts with some bird or whatever, and this thing distracts the driver; that would change his future, so a new universe would need to be created ...

just imagine all the paradox problems it can cause, thats why it doesnt make sense you waste your time trying to think how to go back in time, while we dont have any type of evidence blinking that way

and remember, we all are information, so, yeah, maybe every particle in this world records its history, but for you to go back in time and interact with it, you would change for sure, its impossible to NOT change ... anything you do would change some particles that would automatically create a huge change process

thats why my idea, we would be AI, and probably we would be able to be recreated if you did go back to the past and another universe would "start" with a new time line, but I dont believe thats our case, I sure hope it isnt ...

Originally posted by tauristercus

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

Originally posted by tauristercus
Each time that one of these "time travel" threads appears here on ATS, I find myself making the statement that any attempt to time travel, especially in a backwards direction, is absolutely positively PROHIBITED by nature itself.

No if, and or buts ... utterly and completely PROHIBITED.

Yeah, we better tell LANL. They haven't gotten the memo yet.

I'm sure that the paper you referenced makes fascinating reading and is absolutely full of interesting science/physics ... however, a simpler and more intuitive reason for my stating that (backwards) time travel would be vehemently opposed by nature is for the crucial fact that the inherent and unpredictable nature of quantum mechanics/theory and especially the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, would come crashing down in a major fail.

[edit on 29/6/10 by tauristercus]

Wait...before i respond, did you just refute a link i posted without even bothering to click on it? You are so sure of your own reasoning and logic that you have no need to even consider something outside of it?

Wow, i think i have seen it all. I will leave you to your ego.

reply to post by 11:11



Hey

Can I ask what do we define as time???? It's something I always wanted to ask someone cause I really haven't understand what is time,and I think it's something vital for this thread

Thanks!

Originally posted by alexlo
reply to post by 11:11

 

Hey

Can I ask what do we define as time???? It's something I always wanted to ask someone cause I really haven't understand what is time,and I think it's something vital for this thread

Thanks!

The chronological progression of changes of state.

The statements that "time is an illusion" are maddening to me. Most who say it cannot conceptualize what is truly meant by it.

Time is not really an illusion. Time is a basis for which our universe operates. For example, "An object in motion will stay in motion until acted upon by an exterior force." Without time, the object would always respond the same. There would be no point at which a change of state could be determined.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

Originally posted by alexlo
reply to post by 11:11

 

Hey

Can I ask what do we define as time???? It's something I always wanted to ask someone cause I really haven't understand what is time,and I think it's something vital for this thread

Thanks!

The chronological progression of changes of state.

The statements that "time is an illusion" are maddening to me. Most who say it cannot conceptualize what is truly meant by it.

Time is not really an illusion. Time is a basis for which our universe operates. For example, "An object in motion will stay in motion until acted upon by an exterior force." Without time, the object would always respond the same. There would be no point at which a change of state could be determined.

hmmm...don't know if I got it right,but why did you use time to define time????(chronos=Χρονος=time). So you said that time is the timed progression of changes of state. So a better understanding is needed to really say if time travel is possible.
When some people say that time is an illusion,what they mean by that is not that time is a lie or that time doesn't exist but that it's not as it seems to be. If you were not capable of storing information about the present would you think of time the same as now?I think it's better to say that it's an invention of the human mind based on viewing changes. When you see an object traveling from point A to point B what your brain does is take very fast fotos of the event and store it.Now it has to have a predifined way of measuring time,like seconds,to define time. So you see there time did not existed before the need to measure how long did it take to go there. Now,about time travel, how could you go back to a different point of time, exist again in a point of time that is only now just stored somewhere, and more instantly erase all that has been done and stored again somewhere from that past and on and write a new future ????? I think we are only "allowed" to view the past and the future that's affected only by the present but never change it. It would be nice though,just erase what you've done and continue or change whatever you want. "The river never comes back" is an old wisdom saying
Or Maybe I'm way out of the meaning thought,sorry :s and Thanks

Originally posted by alexlo

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

Originally posted by alexlo
reply to post by 11:11

 

Hey

Can I ask what do we define as time???? It's something I always wanted to ask someone cause I really haven't understand what is time,and I think it's something vital for this thread

Thanks!

The chronological progression of changes of state.

The statements that "time is an illusion" are maddening to me. Most who say it cannot conceptualize what is truly meant by it.

Time is not really an illusion. Time is a basis for which our universe operates. For example, "An object in motion will stay in motion until acted upon by an exterior force." Without time, the object would always respond the same. There would be no point at which a change of state could be determined.

hmmm...don't know if I got it right,but why did you use time to define time????(chronos=Χρονος=time). So you said that time is the timed progression of changes of state. So a better understanding is needed to really say if time travel is possible.
When some people say that time is an illusion,what they mean by that is not that time is a lie or that time doesn't exist but that it's not as it seems to be. If you were not capable of storing information about the present would you think of time the same as now?I think it's better to say that it's an invention of the human mind based on viewing changes. When you see an object traveling from point A to point B what your brain does is take very fast fotos of the event and store it.Now it has to have a predifined way of measuring time,like seconds,to define time. So you see there time did not existed before the need to measure how long did it take to go there. Now,about time travel, how could you go back to a different point of time, exist again in a point of time that is only now just stored somewhere, and more instantly erase all that has been done and stored again somewhere from that past and on and write a new future ????? I think we are only "allowed" to view the past and the future that's affected only by the present but never change it. It would be nice though,just erase what you've done and continue or change whatever you want. "The river never comes back" is an old wisdom saying

Or Maybe I'm way out of the meaning thought,sorry :s and Thanks

You are out in left field.

When i say "chronological", i mean ordered. It happens 1 before the other.

In my example, the object that is in motion, if there is no time, would either never be acted upon by an outside force, or it would always be acted upon by the outside force. Time is what differentiates the change in state. It is the measurement from one "frame of refrerence" to the next.

reply to post by alexlo

Originally posted by alexlo
I think it's better to say that it's an invention of the human mind based on viewing changes.

Time is not an invention of the human mind. Humans started measuring, or counting time out of necessity.

Time and space are woven together, like a fabric. You can not act on one without effecting the other. Time is actually the fourth dimension.

1st dimension: movement from side to side
2ND dimension: movement forward and backward
3rd dimension: movement up and down
4Th dimension: time

Suppose you were meeting a friend for lunch in a restaurant on the tenth floor of a high rise across town at 1:00pm CDT.

You would need all four dimensions to make the meeting possible.

The 1st dimension permits you to travel east or west. The 2nd allows you to travel north and south. The 3rd permits you to travel up, to the tenth floor. And the fourth, Time, allows the meeting to take place on schedule.

Take away any one of the four dimensions, and the meeting does not happen.

The dimensions are woven together like a multi-colored tapestry. Time is like one of the colored fabrics.

I hope this helps in your understanding of what time is.





[edit on 30-6-2010 by MY2Commoncentsworth]

backwards time travel is not impossible and the grandfather paradox is only a paradox if you assume there is only one universe. i dont believe we live in a predetermined universe. in fact that would sux. not having a choice in my destiny is not something i would like to subscribe to. only in a reality with multiple universes could we truly have free will. a determined universe is like a book thats been written and all your doing is reading the story. a multiverse reality is a choose your own adventure story where your actions determine the outcome of your reality. ill take the multiverse reality. information cant be destroyed so the past can not be unwritten but you can create alternate futures.

i think alot of you are forgetting that any travel into the past even a millisecond would create an alternate universe from that point forward. you could never return back to your original time line. well maybe not never but the odd are infinite.

reply to post by TiM3LoRd


I agree with you 100% on this. Our future is not predetermined. We make our own futures. But I also believe that whatever futures we make for ourselves, (that information), is already available, and can be accessed.

What I am saying may sound like predetermination, but it is not. It is a paradox in itself.


[edit on 30-6-2010 by MY2Commoncentsworth]