Rape of woman in skinny jeans 'not possible'

I stumbled onto this site tonight and had to laugh! For a site that deals with "alternative topics" many of you have taken this article at face value!

Well I was one of those that made this decision! It was not made lightly nor quickly and not without some soul searching.

And for all but one person, it had nothing to do with Jeans. You need to remember that an individual can ask questions and if you read the article, the quote starts with an "I".

In Australia we have innocent until proven guilty, and Guilt is based around reasonable doubt as judged by the Jury.

And there was reasonable doubt based on other evidence. You need to remember that even if you are 95% sure of something that still leaves 5% doubt and unfortunately that is a reasonable amount.

All 6 men and 6 women agreed on this!


[edit on 2-5-2010 by Fellow]

Originally posted by chise61
Really ? So the less revealing your clothes are the less likely you are to be raped ? Clothes have nothing to do with rape, it has to do with a sick mind.

The clothes you are wearing won't increase or decrease the chance you will get raped. But they WILL in many cases increase the chance you are selected as a potential target. In its simplest form this is what I and others are advising: don't do things that make you a target!

When I was 16 and walking home 2 blocks from babysitting I truely doubt that what I was wearing influenced the 6'7' man that attempted to rape me. I was wearing a T-shirt, a hooded sweater, flare legged jeans, black suede shoes, and a leather jacket. My that sounds highly inticing doesn't it ? Even though I was wearing nothing that could be considered in any way, shape, or form revealing at all that did not lessen my chances of being raped.

Firstly, I am sorry to hear about what happened to you. I hope you have been able to repair the physical and emotional wounds you sustained. You have to remember that not every rape case is the same, done for the same reasons, done in the same manner. In your case, you did nothing wrong. You were just very unlucky that a person decided to pick you as a target. It sounds like your situation was a case of opportunity on the part of the rapist. He was probably looking for women walking by themselves and put his thoughts into action when he saw you.

The situations many of us are referring to on this board have to do with women that get raped after attending events where they dress up. E.g. meeting a guy at a nightclub, going to his house and getting assaulted. Or meeting a friend of a friend at a bar and inviting him back to your place at the end of the night.

A woman should be free to wear whatever she wants without living in fear that some sick, deranged, pig with an inferiority complex, that wants to prove his power over her is going to attack and rape her.

You are right, but it's just not reality. In reality, we can pretend that women have a metaphysical security mechanism that protects them from rape just because we think this should be the case, but it won't prevent it.

Think of it like this. Let's say I spend a year working with the intention of buying a car. On the weekend I decide to drive to the station and take a train to meet my friends for dinner in the city. I should have the right to park my car, not need to lock my doors and have no worry that my car will find any harm while I am out. Now let's say I really do this and when I come back later that evening, I find out the car has been stolen. Is it my fault my car got stolen? Did I give permission for the thief to take my car? Am I to blame? No, after all I did nothing wrong.

Now if I tell somebody this story, and they find themselves in a similar situation, do you think it would be irresponsible of them to leave their car in that parking lot with the doors unlocked? Surely choosing to lock the doors of the car reduces the chance the car will be selected as a target. Do you see what I am getting at?

[edit on 2/5/2010 by Dark Ghost]

May be a little too much information, but if my girlfriend is any example, then yes skinny jeans can be ripped off. I'm sure some of you know how it goes

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
Surely choosing to lock the doors of the car reduces the chance the car will be selected as a target. Do you see what I am getting at?

[edit on 2/5/2010 by Dark Ghost]

Here's the problem, most women are raped by people they know.
www2.ucsc.edu...
They are not generally attacked by strangers who get turned on by tight pants. How do you protect yourself from the people you trust? And should you? Because that is who is more likely to rape you. Your analogy might make sense to you but it ignores the reality of rape-you are more likely to be raped by someone you know and trust.

Originally posted by Fellow
In Australia we have innocent until proven guilty, and Guilt is based around reasonable doubt as judged by the Jury.

And there was reasonable doubt based on other evidence. You need to remember that even if you are 95% sure of something that still leaves 5% doubt and unfortunately that is a reasonable amount.

All 6 men and 6 women agreed on this!


[edit on 2-5-2010 by Fellow]

What 'other' evidence gave the impression of reasonable doubt?
The doubt from the jury was expressed before the victim was cross examined. Reasonable doubt was not extinguished when the woman squashed that doubt under cross examination. The note was given to the judge before the cross examination.

Smigs

[edit on 2/5/10 by Smiggle]

Originally posted by antonia
Here's the problem, most women are raped by people they know.
www2.ucsc.edu...
They are not generally attacked by strangers who get turned on by tight pants. How do you protect yourself from the people you trust? And should you? Because that is who is more likely to rape you. Your analogy might make sense to you but it ignores the reality of rape-you are more likely to be raped by someone you know and trust.

Like I said, not all rape is the same, done for the same reasons, done using the same methods. Being raped by somebody you know and trust is a betrayal you cannot prepare for. On the other hand, deciding not to dress in revealing clothes, getting drunk and flirting with people you don't know is something that CAN be avoided. Do you see what I am getting at?

[edit on 2/5/2010 by Dark Ghost]

Originally posted by Dark Ghost

Like I said, not all rape is the same, done for the same reasons, done using the same methods. Being raped by somebody you know and trust is a betrayal you cannot prepare for. On the other hand, deciding not to dress in revealing clothes, getting drunk and flirting with people you don't know is something that CAN be avoided. Do you see what I am getting at?

[edit on 2/5/2010 by Dark Ghost]

There are plenty of women who are raped in societies that do not allow revealing clothing. There are plenty of sober who who get raped. Plenty of non-flirtatious women who get raped. You have no idea why these men make women their target.

More practical advice wouldn't be to not dress sexy but to tell women to take self defence classes, to watch their drinks at all times, to trust their gut instincts and to be aware of suspicious behaviour and most importantly to carry themselves with confidence.

Rapists go after vulnerable looking women.

[edit on 2-5-2010 by riley]

Originally posted by antonia
There are plenty of women who are raped in societies that do not allow revealing clothing. There are plenty of sober who who get raped. Plenty of non-flirtatious women who get raped. You have no idea why these men make women their target.

Again, Rape is not something that occurs the same way, for the same reasons, by a perpetrator with the same goals in mind. Look at murder. Murder still occurs in countries that have very low crime rates (for example, Singapore). You can come up with many reasons why this may be the case - perhaps Singaporeans are much harsher on crime in general and this acts as a strong deterrent. The thing is you cannot use data relating to one country to dismiss reasons why this crime is occurring in another.

When people say things like "well even in countries where women have to wear ninja suits it occurs, so that can't be the reason", that is exactly what they are doing. There are enough claims of rape being made (in the West) by young women who were dressed in revealing clothes while being tipsy, while flirting with good looking men they did not know to notice a pattern.

[edit on 2/5/2010 by Dark Ghost]

If they are raped by a friend, it's hard to picture that. So ill say if they were raped by an acquaintance that they thought they knew, try to get some evidence and take it to court, if it's a real rape the lawers would line up for this case.

The rape within family members I can see how it could happen, and how they could get away with it by the verry fact that if the victim a minor turns in a parent they will be damned if they do damned if they dont. I would still say turn the rapist in your chances are still a little better without, them then with. But if its an uncle or a friend of the family, to hell with it turn him in. But going to a bar and going home with someone pretty much is a different ballgame.

There was no evidence that confirmed she was even raped. I hope she wasn't and that she is ust seeking attention or revenge.

Cases like this happen on a daily basis in the U.S.
Without damning evidence, how can someone be convicted?
If we go on her word alone then the legal system turns into the salem witch trials, where accusations rule.

Like I said, I hope that she indeed was not raped. Women often accuse men of rape when the men may have made unwanted advances, or when the woman feels so powerless that the rape accusation is the easiest way to get back.

I actually was forced to write an 18 page research paper on the subject years back, and found that this scenario is FAR more common than people would like to think.

In the absence of witnesses and an inconclusive vaginal "smear", how in the hell could someone be convicted of this crime?

reply to post by antonia

most women are raped by people they know.
How do you protect yourself from the people you trust?

By being clear and firm in your own convictions. By having the integrity of self to simply say "No, I don't want this. Stop."

I would guess that these women who are "raped" by friends and ex-boyfriends and so forth aren't being knocked over and held down with duct tape. They're sharing emotional moments of trust and closeness, and for the other person it becomes sexual but for them it doesn't. But because of the trust and history together they're uncomfortable putting a stop to it. So they sit there analyzing what's going on, weighing their feelings and stuggling internally over what to do about it. And their clothes are off before they speak up. But then they feel it's too late to do anything about it because they don't want to hurt the other person or be accused of leading them on. So they allow it to happen and then torture themselves over it.

I'm sorry, but I don't consider a scenario like that "rape."

reply to post by Dark Ghost

deciding not to dress in revealing clothes, getting drunk and flirting with people you
don't know is something that CAN be avoided. Do you see what I am getting at?

Let me share a story with you. I live near Los Angeles, and I had a friend who once found herself and a friend stuck in one of the nasty parts after midnight. The two of them went to a pair of payphones next to each other to start making calls. While they were there, a guy came up and approached my friend and offered to sell her drugs. She said that she kept an eye on him, faced in squarely and simply said, "no, thank you." He shrugged and went to her friend...who turned her back on him and ignored him when he asked her the same question.

My friend said she stood there watching, still keeping an eye on him, and he walked back over to her and explained that she handled herself the right way. She made eye contact, she acknowledged him, but made it very clear she was not interested. But, he said that her friend was going to get raped. Why? Because of the way she handled herself.

So, yes. There are definitely things you can do to prevent unwanted sexual encounters. And I agree, getting drunk and topless and going back to a strangers house to sit on their bed and "listen to music" is not the best way to avoid a sexual encounter. But even more so I think that simply knowing what you do and don't want, and be willing to speak up and take action to make sure that it happens is really crucial.

Pay attention. Be aware. Know what you want and what you don't want. Make your intentions clear. Let it be known that you won't allow yourself to be taken advantage of.

Once again...this applies to life. Not just sex.

reply to post by antonia

You have no idea why these men make women their target.

Predators go after prey. Don't be prey.


[edit on 2-5-2010 by LordBucket]

reply to post by galadofwarthethird

The woman alleged he then raped her.

www.smh.com.au...

In this case she said that he forced her.

A picture of a bruise is not enough evidence to take a rape case to trial.

Only a real rapist would take that chance .....

As opposed to what a fake rapist ?

But in the story they know eachother it says she is friends with his ex, why would he rape her if the next day he would have to deal with cops at his place.

It happens all the time.....

Fact #22: Almost two-thirds of all rapes are committed by someone who is known to the victim. 73% of sexual assaults were perpetrated by a non-stranger (— 38% of perpetrators were a friend or acquaintance of the victim, 28% were an intimate and 7% were another relative.) (National Crime Victimization Survey, 2005)

www.feminist.com...

Approximately 2/3 of rapes were committed by someone known to the victim.1

73% of sexual assaults were perpetrated by a non-stranger.1

38% of rapists are a friend or acquaintance.1


28% are an intimate.1


7% are a relative.1

www.rainn.org...

What is a passion crime ?

I'm gonna tell you again, I am making no judgement as to whether or not this man is guilty because I don't know all the facts of the case. I'm simply saying that the jeans should never have been a factor in the case unless they were, or had evidence on them.

Nine-page ATS thread on skinny jeans "not possible," says perplexed Silent Thunder.

[edit on 5/2/10 by silent thunder]

Originally posted by silent thunder
Nine-page ATS thread on skinny jeans "not possible," says perplexed Silent Thunder.

Silent thunder.....

Why not?

I think the discussion has been very interesting & in view of the subject matter, well controlled.

Kind regards
Maybe...maybe not

Originally posted by Maybe...maybe not

Originally posted by silent thunder
Nine-page ATS thread on skinny jeans "not possible," says perplexed Silent Thunder.

Silent thunder.....

Why not?

I think the discussion has been very interesting & in view of the subject matter, well controlled.

Kind regards
Maybe...maybe not

Yes, I suppose I shouldn't be so flippant. Rape is a serious topic worthy of consideration and discussion, I suppose.

There can be no situation in which rape is justified. And there can be no situation in which falsely claiming to have been raped can be justified. And that's all I have to say about that.

Peace and love to all. No more rapes, no more lies. If only...

reply to post by silent thunder


Silent thunder.....

Yes, I suppose I shouldn't be so flippant. Rape is a serious topic worthy of consideration and discussion, I suppose.

There can be no situation in which rape is justified. And there can be no situation in which falsely claiming to have been raped can be justified. And that's all I have to say about that.

Peace and love to all. No more rapes, no more lies. If only...

I think you've summed that quite well

Kind regards
Maybe...maybe not

Ummm... was this a Sharia Court or something? Has our legal system really sunken that low?

I guess the company that makes the jeans can now market them as an anti rape device; and parents from around the globe will now force their daughters to wear skinny jeans when they go out partying on the weekends!

What's next? Boob tubes with built in elastic anti-fondling technology?

IRM

reply to post by chise61


Your definition of rape is slightly different then mine, mines more practical yours is more emotional. See LordBucket's posts they explain more then I care to go into. And a passion crime is a illogical event were emotions get the better of you and you do stupid things you wouldn't do in regular cases. There is a difference between a real rapist and a sittuation were your emotions take over, but there is no fake rapist, only ignorance, stupidity, emotional conflict. Just like there is a difference between a murder that happens because of conflict/passion and hate and a murder thats planed out beforehand ie serial killers. They are two different animals, have you heard the one abouth the difference in dogs and wolfs. A dog is a domestic animal it fights and barks loud to express dominance in a pack, but does not kill hence domestication. A wolf on the otherhand is a social and pack centric wild animal, it kills but does not fight or bark to express dominance in a pack, it has no time for games in its world, nature wont allow such a waste of energy. There is a difference between a rapist, and two drunk horny people in a room together that may, or may not like eachother the next day. And again you say jeans shouldn't be a factor in this case, and since we only have a story of the basics of this case and jeans is implied by the writer as an important part, then you have an opinion of her opinion. I said jeans dont matter they should be the leser point of this case. So we are in agreement abouth skiny jeans, in that it shouldn't be an issue that wearing them makes one rape proof.

reply to post by Maybe...maybe not


OK the adversarial system of law that we have in place means that the law was correct. Was a guilty person acquited?????? I am not a lawyer.