Questions about official and clandestine Freemasonry

Originally posted by Chevalerous
And some of the European Continental Freemasonry are even much older than their counterparts of Anglo Saxon masonry....



The Anglo-American masons here on ATS are really funny when they are trying to convince you that European Continental Freemasonry and the GOdF (Grand Orients Lodges) would be inferior and less masonic in nature than the Anglo American "Regular" tradition of jurisdictions.

Pfft! that is only deceptive propaganda from the Anglo Saxon Americans!

I see your grasp on Masonic history isn't all that good, so allow me to to stop the spread of your own little piece of deceptive propaganda with a couple of facts:

What this guy is calling "European Continental Freemasonry" is in itself of Anglo-Saxon origin. The oldest records of Freemasonry are dated from the British Isles.

The Grand Orient de France was founded in 1733, after the first French Masonic Lodge was founded in Dunkirk....by ENGLISH Masons.

The Grand Orient de France was the regular and legitimate body of Freemasonry in France until 1877, when the GOdF began admitting atheists. This was in violation of the Ancient Landmarks of Masonry, and such violation meant that the GOdF could no longer be considered a Masonic organization.

Many in the GOdF opposed the violation of the Landmarks, so they seceded and formed the National Grand Lodge of France, which practiced orthodox Masonry. This organization still exists today, and is the representative of legitimate and traditional Freemasonry within France.

Well! the Anglo-American masonry here on this site are not completely honest, and they are not telling you the whole truth to why they have declared so many the European continental masonry lodges to be 'clandestine'

The truth can be seen by anyone with enough interest to study Masonic history.

The schism and the split started 1870 when the European lodges grow tired of the Americans prude and strong conservative ties to Christianity and other ignorance running rampant among the American lodges - whether the Anglo Americans here like to deny it or not.

Even this is not true. The real reason of the schism is that the Grand Orient was afraid of the Catholic Church, who labeled Freemasonry a religion. It was a priest named Frédéric Desmons who introduced the motion into the Grand Orient that belief in God be no longer required: not because they were afraid that Masonry had a Christian bias, but because they were afraid the Catholic Church considered them UNChristian.

According to their logic, if Masonry no longer required belief in God, then the Church would no longer see Masonry as a threat, and everybody would live happily ever after. Obviously, the Church wasn't fooled by this, and neither were the real Masons.

reply to post by Masonic Light


Ahhh! delicious pure Anglo American masonic propaganda at its finest in the corrupted spirit of the deceptive United Grand Lodge of England.

They are still dancing around the truth about how the schism started just after the end of the American Civil War In 1869.

The truth is that Grand Orient de France GOdF recognised a Masonic group in Louisiana which was not recognised by the Grand Lodge of Louisiana and at the request of the Grand Lodge of Louisiana several other American Grand Lodges also withdrew recognition of GOdF.

So why do they do that? what was the motives behind that?

Well there are actually some existing evidence that this was racially motivativated. And we all know how strictly rascist and segregated Louisiana was at that time.

French masons who were politically behind the French revolution with slogans like Liberté, égalité, fraternité (Liberty, Equality, Fraternity/Brotherhood) could not accept the American rampant rascism and other arrogance among the American lodges where they where denying people their basic Liberty, Equality, Fraternity/Brotherhood

Because that went against everything the French masons believed in.

They really despised the bigoted "holier than thou" life philosophy of the rascist Anglo Americans in the Southern lodges - so they said: screw the American bigots of the official U.S masonry!

And the next lie they want you to believe is that the French masons and clandestine lodges were afraid of the Catholic church and this was why they allowed for complete religious 'Laïcité'.

And that is another official lie from the fundamentalist American freemasonry to distract you from the truth which is very simple in this case.

They were NOT afraid of the Catholic Church as they want you to believe, in fact, the Catholich Church has always had secretly VERY GOOD contact with the French masons and other clandestine masonry in Europe - heck! they have even had many prominent members of the Church in their lodges.

So please don't buy that deceptive fairytales from the Anglo American masonry!

No! the reason is very simple! they allowed the complete religious 'Laïcité' for the same reasons as:

Liberté, égalité, fraternité - Liberty, Equality, Fraternity/Brotherhood!

It was against their enligtenment to still demand and that a Mason "must love well God and holy church always"

So in the true spirit of the French revolution and with the times of revolving social evolution in Europe they thought it was not of any enlightenment to deny Atheists to join them.

And the the schism between the French and the old fashioned bigoted closet Christian masons started.

And not because because the were afraid of the Catholic church as these clowns are lying to you! - Catholic Church was not a damn threat to the brave French men and masons who just had made a revolution and had executed religious indoctrinated bigoted people directly in the streets if they had an attitude.

Hell! The Catholich church didn't have the same power as they used to have! - during the 30 year war (1618–1648) they were slaughtered in more than half of the Holy Roman Empire by the Swedish king Gustaf II Adolf and his Swedish Armies with their coalition of European warrior protestants! (1630–1635) - so believe me, the Catholics weren't cockey!

But now everyone can see what notorious deceptive manipulators of truth these Anglo Americans masons really are!

The dark Catholic ages in Europe was over forever! the result of this war was the substantial decline in the power and influence of the Catholic Church in Europe.

Both the official United Grand Lodge & The Grande Loge Nationale Française is nowadays nothing more than a social club kindergarten and play-ground for semi religious Christians/Jews

No my good people! these people are amateurs in the bigger picture!!

The interesting people and movers and shakers of Europe moved over to the old European "clandestine lodges" ages ago - and these are equally masonic in nature as the offficial ones.

And I don't think the Grand Orients in Italy, France, Spain or Switzerland etc actually care if you are officially calling them Clandestine or not, because it doesn't matter to any sane person in Europe - beside the most hardcore 'official' UGLE mason nerds.

Or if the corrupt fundamentalist Christians in some American Southern lodge in Louisiana with delusions of grandeur demanded to withdrew the recognition of some of the European Grand Orients in the jurisdictions worldwide.

They don't friggin care! - these secret lodges have their own old history and their own Regius manuscripts.

I mean! who the heck give two cents what some delusional crazy fundamentalists with God complex far away in America are saying!

But since there are so many loud mouths there! and for good business and some peace & quiet - the European Masonry said like: let them believe they got their thing through! - but we are having business as usual here in Europe - we don't care about those crazies over there in the Grand Lodge of Louisiana - they can go and #@%X.

"We are European wankers and we stick together forever like a lid on Tupperware - screw the KKK everywhere - the Great Architect has finally gone totally raving mad! - save us from the Blue Lodge lunatics who wear their ugly non-Gucci aprons and dirty underwear" they loudly sang out! in lodges everywhere all over Continental Europe!

These was the words they were singing in lodges all over Europe! and you can still hearing them singing this song today, when no American spies are present!

Did you really expected that fine noble European gentlemens would take your crazy demands and opinions seriously?

Seriously! they never implemented any of the American pipe dreams - they only fooled you very very good to believe so!

It was a play to the gallery!

A beautiful deception!

So in reality ALL European lodges are laughing behind your backs and are still best pals with all clandestine lodges - all over Europe!

And there are existing older secret lodges and Knightly & Chivalric Orders with the ancient tradition of the Egyptian secrets here in Europe, who are now also connected indirectly to GOdF and other European Grand Orients - and with much finer & older pedigree than any of the official UGLE or GLNF lodges can ever come up with, or ever be compared with.

The "official" UGLE or GLNF of today are like trailer trash lodges for the peasants in comparison to these fine true noble European Knightly Orders who are the rightious guardians of the ancient traditions and the Egyptian secrets.

And the funny part is that for most Anglo American masons it would be impossible to even enter one since most of them are not from noble European families.

But I know some fine English gentlemens who are members of both though!

I could on the other hand join one of these peasant lodges and learn and have access to everything they know! - if I wanted to, that is! - but I don't want to - because it would be a waste of my time and their dinner parties are awfully dull I'm told!

Peace my friend! don't be angry! - love, peace & understanding!

And this is by no means not a rant against the great and glorious population of America in general, no sir! they're mostly very nice fine people and I love many of them.

Liberté, égalité, fraternité!

[edit on 30-4-2010 by Chevalerous]

reply to post by Chevalerous

Ah yes, its propaganda that the Orients are the ones full of nutcases and have shady pasts. P2 Lodge anybody? Plus, clandestine Freemasonry is much smaller than the accepted regular Masons.

I could get into a pissing match about not caring, but you already have your misguided belief so there is no point.

Wait? You mock the UGLE and GLNF, but then you go on a rant about how Euros don't care about what Americans think? Is France and England not a part of the European continent now? But really when it boils down to it, your anti-American and this is just a petty rant. Plus every Grand Lodge is sovereign to itself and by keeping the general guidelines of Freemasonry does each Grand Lodge recognize each other.

And where was that little "song" sang and by who? Where is it credited to?

[edit on 29-4-2010 by KSigMason]

Originally posted by Chevalerous


They are still dancing around the truth about how the schism started just after the end of the American Civil War In 1869.

We know when and why the schism began. It is on record.

French masons who were politically behind the French revolution with slogans like Liberté, égalité, fraternité (Liberty, Equality, Fraternity/Brotherhood) could not accept the American rampant rascism and other arrogance among the American lodges where they where denying people their basic Liberty, Equality, Fraternity/Brotherhood

Untrue. The GOdF certainly did not want to lose their recognition.

They were NOT afraid of the Catholic Church as they want you to believe, in fact, the Catholich Church has always had secretly VERY GOOD contact with the French masons and other clandestine masonry in Europe - heck! they have even had many prominent members of the Church in their lodges.

This shows a very fundamental ignorance of the history of church relations with Freemasonry. The Papal Bull Humanum Genus condemns Continental irregular Masonry, as did the previous bulls. Cagliostro wasted away in an Inquisition jail, as did other leaders and members of irregular Masonry. To claim the Church and clandestine Masonry were friends in nothing short of laughable.

It's nice to know that I don't have to call this fellow, "Brother".

I'm glad my ancestors left the inbred continent and killed the Kings soldiers in our first revolution. "A Pox on You and Yours" my good fellow! It's a fine line of "freemen" in my family line that told the King of England to stuff his royalty. A bunch if bleeders and inbreds, let them rot.

I know that's not really masonic, but he's not my Brother, so be it.

I'd have more contempt for this guy if I wasn't reminded of all my relatives that had to fight and die on his continent the last two times in the Great Wars to free his forefathers, the movers and shakers and their contemptous royalty from the ashes of their own stupidty. I hope the Muslims shred the place this time and we sit back and watch it burn to the ground.

I'm not even going to try to be nice on this one. This guy is a Troll and I'm calling "Shenenigans"!

[edit on 1-5-2010 by sharkman]

reply to post by americandingbat


As far as I'm aware any fraternal body recognised by the United Grand Lodge of England is considered regular. Anything not is then clandestine, if we are to accept the authorized view of global Freemasonry as dictated by UGLE. It's all merely politics anyhow.

Would any masons here consider my hugely simplified summation, as a general rule, correct?

Originally posted by Extant Taxon
Would any masons here consider my hugely simplified summation, as a general rule, correct?

As a general rule, I would tend to agree with your summation. Of course, the details (and politics) can get a lot more sticky. For instance, I believe Grand Lodge of West Virginia has a beef with Grand Lodge of Ohio right now, for some very stupid reasons, and so one whole state has refused to recognize another.

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by Extant Taxon
Would any masons here consider my hugely simplified summation, as a general rule, correct?

As a general rule, I would tend to agree with your summation. Of course, the details (and politics) can get a lot more sticky. For instance, I believe Grand Lodge of West Virginia has a beef with Grand Lodge of Ohio right now, for some very stupid reasons, and so one whole state has refused to recognize another.

Interesting. Are you able to say what these points of conflict are? I'm guessing not but I shall attempt to pry anyway.

Originally posted by Extant Taxon
Interesting. Are you able to say what these points of conflict are? I'm guessing not but I shall attempt to pry anyway.

From the The Freemason.







[edit on 2-5-2010 by AugustusMasonicus]

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


'k. Thanks.

Originally posted by Extant Taxon

As far as I'm aware any fraternal body recognised by the United Grand Lodge of England is considered regular.

That is true, but only in England. Here in the USA, there are 51 different Grand Lodges, each of which also may grant or withhold recognition. In general, the UGLE and the US and Canadian Grand Lodges all hold pretty much the same folks as regular and clandestine, but this is not always the case.

reply to post by Masonic Light


Isn't there this idea called "amity" though? Where UGLE, being the oldest established Grand Lodge in the world, the global mother lodge in a sense, confers recognition on Grand Lodges worldwide and that any Grand Lodge it recognises is thus regular, any it doesn't then irregular? I believe that this occurs on a worldwide basis as all Freemasonic bodies who wish to consider themselves as regular defer to UGLE, though there is still no unified Masonic body in a global sense.
I mean if the Scottish Rite suddenly declared itself a secular humanist body and begun openly meddling in political affairs the UGLE banhammer would be lowered and they would be declared irregular, just like the GOdF.

Originally posted by Extant Taxon

Isn't there this idea called "amity" though?

Yes, but each Grand Lodge is sovereign and independent within its own jurisdiction. The UGLE may recognize some bodies that, say, the Grand Lodge of Texas does not, and vice versa. Just because the UGLE recognizes a certain body, that does not mean that all other regular GL's recognize that same body.

A good example is the one Augustus mentioned. The UGLE recognizes the Grand Lodge of Ohio, while the Grand Lodge of West Virginia currently does not.

Where UGLE, being the oldest established Grand Lodge in the world, the global mother lodge in a sense, confers recognition on Grand Lodges worldwide and that any Grand Lodge it recognises is thus regular, any it doesn't then irregular?

The UGLE's authority does not extend outside of its own jurisdiction. It can grant or withhold recognition to whomever it wants, although it does not necessarily follow that its sister Grand Lodges in the USA and Canada (or even Scotland, Ireland, and Wales) will follow.

Therefore, it is necessary for a Mason, when traveling abroad, to know which Grand Lodges his own recognizes, if he wishes to visit a foreign Lodge. The UGLE governs English Masons only.

I believe that this occurs on a worldwide basis as all Freemasonic bodies who wish to consider themselves as regular defer to UGLE

They must petition for recognition to each Grand Lodge they want to be recognized by. If they petition only to the UGLE, they do not automatically become recognized by the US Grand Lodges. They are required to formally request recognition from all 51 US GL's, and it's very possible that some may grant them recognition, while others will deny it.

I mean if the Scottish Rite suddenly declared itself a secular humanist body and begun openly meddling in political affairs the UGLE banhammer would be lowered and they would be declared irregular, just like the GOdF.

Not exactly because, technically, the UGLE has jurisdiction only over Craft Lodges (or, as they are generally known in the States, "Blue Lodges"). The UGLE could, however, issue an edict that no regular Master Mason could associate with the Scottish Rite. Something similar to this has happened a couple of times here in the States concerning the Shriners, although the problems were eventually worked out.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
They must petition for recognition to each Grand Lodge they want to be recognized by. If they petition only to the UGLE, they do not automatically become recognized by the US Grand Lodges. They are required to formally request recognition from all 51 US GL's, and it's very possible that some may grant them recognition, while others will deny it.

This just happened at our Grand Lodge convention. The Maldives had petitioned last year for recognition. They were not cleared as their charter could not be verified. It was since verified and recogntion granted.

'k. Thanks for the answers from the Masons here.

I think it would be helpful to clarify why some putative "Masonic" bodies are considered irregular and clandestine, aside from the legalisms of recognition. Irregular and clandestine are, technically, two different things -- but I'm going to confound them for the purposes of this discussion since no one here will care.

Historically, there have been people who have used the desire of men to join the Fraternity to turn a buck. The "degree mill" pretend-Grand Lodges charge as much as they can to initiate a man into their system and then, usually, vanish into thin air. This kind of fraud has, for whatever reason, been particularly persistent in the African-American community and the PHA Grand Lodges have been instrumental in identifying this kind of fraud.

There is something of a split in Freemasonry that developed when the Grand Orient of France decided to admit atheists. That action caused them to lose recognition from most other Masonic bodies. However, they were already on thin ice because they had developed a habit of making overtly political statements. Grand bodies in amity with the Grand Orient of France continue this trend and, generally speaking, are considered irregular. They have abandoned, in the view of the majority of Freemasons, the Landmarks of the Fraternity -- those essential elements which define Freemasonry.

Lastly, there are a small number of bodies that are more-or-less created out of spite. Someone didn't get their way at a meeting and got hot and ran off and created their own lodge. They usually are very small groups characterized by a loud and short-lived internet presence and they quickly die as their fractious and disharmonious nature makes it difficult to accomplish anything.

So... 3 kinds of clandestine Lodges (broadly speaking): Fraudulent, philosophically divergent from the main tradition, and break-away.

Does that help at all?

(Note: I know there are a couple of other types. P2, for example, was a delibertaely criminal enterprise pretending to outsiders to be a Masonic Lodge. But, the above covers most of the occurrences, I think.)

First, I want again to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread -- I've been following closely and with interest, but haven't felt my input was needed for some time.

Originally posted by driley
There is something of a split in Freemasonry that developed when the Grand Orient of France decided to admit atheists. That action caused them to lose recognition from most other Masonic bodies. However, they were already on thin ice because they had developed a habit of making overtly political statements. Grand bodies in amity with the Grand Orient of France continue this trend and, generally speaking, are considered irregular. They have abandoned, in the view of the majority of Freemasons, the Landmarks of the Fraternity -- those essential elements which define Freemasonry...

Does that help at all?

Yes, that is very helpful

My interest was piqued by the other thread particularly about the European (French/Italian) Grand Orients. It's something of a moot point now since the OP of that thread seems to have said all he has to say, but it struck me that the arguing over whether the lodge he claimed to have visited was really a ("regular") Masonic Lodge or not was a little to the side of what really interested me, which was the idea that there was an organized international group (who happened to call themselves Masons whether or not they actually were) who seemed to be actively seeking to promulgate a One World Religion and who we had testimony included a number of very powerful men and about whom "all the horror stories are true."

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by americandingbat

 

A few states still don't recognize Prince Hall as regular masonry. Arkansas is one. I am not sure of the others. NC adopted to recognize them only two years ago. (we sure are progressive) before that, they were considered clandestine. As Chorozon said, the things that make a lodge not recognized are going against masonic principals that have been the same since the beginning. It's a fraternity, so no girls alowed.

The entire south-east of the US doesn't recognize Prince Hall Freemasonry, including vacation destinations such as Florida and South Carolina.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
reply to post by americandingbat

 

Clandestine bodies usually have their own Grand Lodges which govern them. This is not always the case though. For example, the notorious P2 Lodge existed all by itself without any recognition from any other group.

Propaganda Due was chartered by the Grand Orient of Italy.

reply to post by vcwxvwligen


It was originally chartered by the Grand Orient of Italy, then this was withdrawn when the many, many improprieties committed by P2 were uncovered. It became a "black lodge."
Lots of very interesting question remain though regarding P2, not least whether they were merely released by the mother lodge just because they were found out. Some relevent info to be found here and here.