Muslim nurses CAN cover up... but Christian colleagues can't wear crucifixes

My earlier statement still stands, you can just change racist for bigot.


[edit on 12/4/10 by Kram09]

Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by blupblup

 

Nice try at a slippery spin, but when you open up with "These threads (ie; This one) bring out all the bigots and racists", immediately following a back and forth between a couple of posters over this issue, then it can be inferred you were refferring to not only this thread but those posting within it.

So as I thought, you can't show that I said anything about any members on this thread, just what You happen to read into it.
I said "These threads" because that's where the kind of hateful talk that Parallex mentioned, takes place.
I was actually just picking up on what he said and not referring to anything in this thread at all, and you can believe that or not... I couldn't care less.

If your comment was a general one about the site as a whole, why did you post it in this thread and not post your own about that very issue?

Because this is the thread in which the member that I was replying to posted their statements, had it been another thread, I would have happily posted in whatever thread it would have been.

It was deliberately implied that certain, unspecififed (I grant you that...) posters in this thread are bigots and racists because they dare to critice blatantly discriminatory practices. No amount of Spin doctoring can get you off that hook. Give Alistair Campbell a call, he could give you some tips.

It wasn't deliberate anything.

Paranoid much?

As I stated, I've been in many discussions and debates about Muslims and all the other offshoot conversations that go with it... I was merely stating that if Parralex was offended by some of the comments in this thread, that he/she shouldn't be surprised by them because ATS has it's fair share of bigots and hateful members.... I made no allusions to Anyone in this thread and wasn't talking about this thread per se, more the general "Anti-Muslim" threads that appear on here.

I cannot be blamed for your paranoia or guilt mate... or perhaps you just got your wires crossed? I have no idea.... either way, your "Beef" with me and your unfounded accusations are just that... Unfounded.

You're reading between lines that are not there.

I Don't beat around the bush, you should know that by now... If I wanted to say something or accuse someone of something, I'd just say it... I don't hold back... but that was Not my reason or intention for posting in this thread, I have stated that a couple of times now.

But hey... you obviously know better than me right?





[edit on 12/4/10 by blupblup]

reply to post by Kram09


Would it really be too much to ask for people to stop calling everybody who disagrees with their Benetton-ad world view "racists and bigots"?

Why can't anyone engage in a proper, constructive debate about an issue, rather than just trying to shoot down anothers opinion with name calling and other childish behaviour?

Face it, immigration, discrimination and the loss of English/british culture are real concerns of a great many people. You can't go round calling everyone a racist, at some point you're going to have to stop and listen to peoples views.

If you don't and you continue to shoot down and ostracise people, then the REAL RACISTS of the BNP will be the only ones to gain..

reply to post by blupblup


Whatever your intentions or meaning behind your post, you have to admit that wading into a debate and stating "these threads always attract the bigots and racists" is going to look like you're having a go at those very people. Especially as you sided with Paralax who is quite happy to throw around the "racist/bigot/anti-semite" labels himself.

It is precisely because peiople throw these labels around when a discussion like this comes up that real debate on an issue ceases to happen and we get bogged down either trying to prove we're not racist or the other side trying to prove we are..

Bottom line is, I doubt any of us are actual racists (I am certainly not, which is why I have defended any accusations of such so vecifourously)but I do believe many of us are sincerely worried about a significant loss of cultural identity, blatant social engineering undertaken by this Labour Government and the massive changes this country has gone through since 1997.

These are real issues which real people are really worried about..

It doesn't help when people start slinging names such as "racist" or "bigot" around. It just stifles the debate.

reply to post by stumason




Well I agree that there most certainly is a debate to be had, Immigration is not only a concern of many people, but also a real problem.
But it pisses me off when every single thread, be it about Immigration, Religion or in this case, Nurses... always has to come down to Muslims and how they're this and how they don't do that and blah blah.

We have more Eastern European Immigrants than any other yet it is always Muslims that get the grief and bear the brunt of the anger and accusations.
The point is... wherever the immigrants are from, It's not Their fault!!

Our government is to blame for the immigration problems we have right now... the fact that they weren't ever keeping a record of who was coming and going and so on until last year/year before... it's ridiculous... they decide, or more to the point "Europe" decides on figures and who can come and go...I think many people are aware of the issues surrounding it, but It's the negative stereotypes, the blatant ignorance and yes... the bigoted views and racism and xenophobia that do not help anyone.... Groups like the BNP.. and people who literally hate any "Foreigners" and talk about a "White" Britain and so on...are stopping a serious debate from ever happening.

You say that it's because of people calling everyone who mentions immigration a racist.... I say that it's because of the racist mentality of many people up and down the country.
Both extremes of this debate help nobody.... accusing everyone of being racist because they want to talk about Immigration is wrong.... but then avoiding the fact that many people who do have concerns are masking their racism and subtly airing their racist views is also just ignorant.

I don't personally think you are racist, I think you're a Nationalist and keen to keep hold of some sort of identity... which I can never understand personally... I find Nationalism is a very strange concept and one that seeks to cause division and hostility,but certainly don't think just because someone is proud of their country or that they are Nationalistic, that it somehow means that they are a racist, not at all.

I do believe Nationalism is only a few small steps away from Racism but I certainly understand that there are degrees of both.
Someone can be proud of their country for a multitude of reasons, doesn't make them racist... however with groups like the BNP, they take that way too far and mask their racism with a phoney desire to protect the British and by claiming that they're proud nationalists and so on.

There are so many grey areas.... this topic is certainly not black and white, pun intended.


[edit on 12/4/10 by blupblup]

Originally posted by Yissachar1
reply to post by Magnum007

 

Not all muslims are semites.. Some are asian, american british, white, black, brown... Stop accusing racism when there is no racism here, just double standards... Islam is not a race but a religion... That card gets played too often to stifle debate.... It wont work here....

Actually it's an ethnicity, which is a group of people who share customs and religion. Being Jewish is also an ethnicity, but do to families being in the elasticities, it does cause certain traits.

reply to post by blupblup


I agree, eastern European migrants certainly outweigh Muslims in terms of numbers, but there are some significant differences.

Namely, the Europeans tend to come here for work, earn some money and then go home again.

The "asylum seekers" of the early century and the current Muslim population are here to stay. They are also ALOT more vocal and certainly more demanding of us to conform to their standards. This serves to generate alot more angst towards them than is directed at the Poles etc.

Whilst you might say it isn't the immigrants "fault", this is to an extent true. However, it's the bheaviour of said immigrants (or at least a vocal minority within them) that causes alot of the bad blood.

I know alot of people who's only beef with immigrants is that they come over here and fail to integrate and respect our culture. When and where they do, however, I don't know anyone who has issue with them, unless they are truly racist then it doesn't matter what they do as they are seen to simply be the wrong flavour of human.

I also agree that it is both sides spoiling the debate. The wishy-washy left for crying racism as soon as anyone opens their mouth, or the far-right thugs who like to smack a "darkie" just because he has a higher melanin count.

The silent majority in the middle remains so, as they don't want to be labelled as one of the two groups hijacking the debate, or worse, face criminal charges.

I know of incidents where individuals have been arrested for distributing leaflets opposing local mosques, for example. There was never any racist intent, just a desire to protect local culture or what have you, but Fuzz will bust their door in and have them away on "racially aggravated" charges, thereby scaring good, honest folk from even dicussing the issue which many have a great deal to say about.

I don't seriously buy that there are that many racists in the UK, at least in relation to the vast majority. Times have moved on, for the most part. What people don't like to see is in the space of ten short years whole neighbourhoods changing character and even some becoming "no white areas" where you actually risk physical harm should you dare to go there and be caucasion.

I don't think this is racism, it is a desire to not have the place you have lived in change simply because a Socialist Government tried it's hand at social engineering and importing many who would likely vote for them in the future.

I will ask if you've seen the Dispatched programme on Islamic extremist parties getting invloved in local politics and how closely linked they are to some senior Labour MP's. Add to that the stated aim of these groups is Islamification of the UK and you get genuine fear from the populace for the countries future. This is compounded by the seeming unwillingness of the Government to address these fears, whatsoever.

I am glad you don't think I am a racist, but I am puzzled by your attitude to nationalism. I am proud of this country, it's achievements and the people who live here. I simply wish to preserve what is left of England, with it's ancient democracy, world reknowned Justice system, it's fabulous history and it's reputation for fairness.

Only in England is nationalism equated with racism, elsewhere people are expected to have a degree of national pride and to want to preserve their way of life. But if the English want to do it, it's boiled down to a desire to "get rid of them darkies", which has nothing to do with it all.

I work with a Ghanain, 2 South Africans, 2 Russians and a Ukrainian. I have mates from all ethnic groups and even have a couple of Gay friends. I am as liberal as they come, but I still love my country. Nationalism or being proud of your heritage shouldn't be something to be ashamed of nor should it automatically equate to me having a crew cut and go hunting pakistani's on a chilly winters night...

Surely, as a nation, we should be looking out for ourselves first? Other nations certainly do. Our Government has let us down in this regard, majorly. Especially with examples like this article where the "needs" of one group are being placed above the needs of another.

reply to post by Yissachar1

Good post Yissachar1 and still people can't see this as a Safety issue!
I see illusive man has changed his tune.



Zelong.

I do believe Nationalism is only a few small steps away from Racism but I certainly understand that there are degrees of both.

reply to post by blupblup


I dont think there is anything wrong with being a nationalist... True nationalism is taking pride in your country and roots... This country took parts of my family in when no one else would.. It gave us new life and opportunities and stood for goodness in the world. My family repaid by serving in the forces right up to myself... I guess if you have never really fought for your country and ideals, and have been placed in positions where your metal has been tested as a man facing death for your birthplace, and have something real to lose... Then maybe you wont understand... Another example is a Sikh mate of mine who I served with.. He is more English than most English I have ever met... He LOVES England with a passion, and after serving with distinction he now is in business and is a multi millionaire... He will be displaying his HUGE St George flag on St Georges day after marching with us with his medals pinned to his chest.. Then its off to his for grub... I reconnected with him when I got back from Israel, and he gave me the reference I needed to get into Uni in the autumn... To me THAT is England.... I am a Jewish man who is an Israeli dual national.... But I was born and bred here... I feel more English than Israeli even after serving in the IDF too...
I am proud to be an English Jew, with a Jordanian ex Muslim wife in one of the few countries in this world where that is possible... I and my family owe England our lives... And will not be silent when fifth columnists destroy my country.. That is what is happening here... Open your eyes... I wish you would come up to the black country and see bad leaven grow that will engulf this land... A little leaven, good or bad leavens the whole lump...
Immigration has to stop for a while.. We don't have the resources to cope with the influx be the black or white who cares??! And now we have a minority RELIGION...NOT RACE... Not only accusing our troops of being baby killers.. Not only calling for all unbelievers to be beheaded.. Marginalizing the dominant religion of the country.. Making Christianity almost a hate crime... But now putting patients LIVES at risk... If nobody speaks up then what is going to happen... When one part of society is given too much power then the inch that is given becomes a mile... That is human nature... Its almost like its done on purpose too... TPTB.. Thats why we must fight it... If we are ALL equal then the problem will go away... But my guess is that it won't...

reply to post by Phlynx


Malaysia has the biggest Muslim population... Are they Semites then? Or Asian?

reply to post by stumason


I can't take anything you say on here seriously. You sound like Tony Holyoak... but not as dim.

"EDL are great this. EDL are fantastic that." Seriously, wake up and accept that if you support the EDL, you're a fascist. There's a reason they're opposed by a group called UNITE AGAINST FASCISM (UAF) you know? You may as well start dressing in black shirts and changing your name by deed poll to Moseley.

I support the campaign for an English Parliament - but I don't support bigoted nationalism like yours. It's disgusting and immoral, and threads like this one only raise to the fore this foul 'chatter' that you call 'genuine politics'. If the UAF goes around trying to prevent groups like your nazi-EDL from gaining ground, mores the better.

Parallex.

reply to post by Parallex


And yet again, claiming I said something I didn't. I notice that you never came back to provide any evidence of me "spouting hatred" like you claimed earlier.... And I am supposed to be bothered that you don't take me seriously, oh the irony...

Please, for the love of all things holy, quote me where I have sung the praises of the EDL like you claim. Please, point out to me and everyone on this thread where I said I support the EDL.

I don't actually support them, I do not even really know what they stand for and I doubt some of them do either.

All I said was I have witnessed, as I happened to be in the area at the time on business, a clash between the EDL and the UAF. It was (even according to Police reports in the media) the UAF causing the trouble and using violence. The EDL spent most of their time holed up in a pub!

I also find it hilariously irojnic that a group called "Unite Agianst facism" uses facist tactics to quash views which they do not agree with.

I guess irony is lost on you though as you seem to wallow in it.

reply to post by stumason


Just ignore him.. He is a troll... I mailed him personally a week or so ago and he tried to use it against me in another thread and this...

He has the honour of being my first and only ignore on ATS... Sad..

[edit on 12-4-2010 by Yissachar1]

Here's some pictures of your lovely EDL people - Spot the minorities amongst them.... there are NONE!













Most of them are skin-head thugs that can't string a sentence together, and just want to beat on minorities and anyone or anything they cant wrap their intellects around.

THIS is the EDL - the fascist evil tide of idiot Britain.

Parallex.

Originally posted by Yissachar1
reply to post by Phlynx

 

Malaysia has the biggest Muslim population... Are they Semites then? Or Asian?

Ethnic -
adj.

1.
1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of a sizable group of people sharing a common and distinctive racial, national, religious, linguistic, or cultural heritage.

www.answers.com...


You can have both an ethnicity and a race.


I think ATS is beginning to grow in the number of racists. I don't get why a doctor can't wear sleeves, unless they are a surgeon, then it is a safety concern, but in a surgeon situation a metallic necklace also is, which could fall in a cut and infect someone.



[edit on 12-4-2010 by Phlynx]

reply to post by stumason


I think we know who the fascists on ATS are. It's not hard to identify them.

Hi Craig!

Parallex.

And as for the EDL not causing trouble or being nasty....



Lovely individuals that get on well with the Police aren't they? Racist, ignorant, violent scum.

Parallex.

reply to post by Parallex


Ok, thanks for the pics.... Whatever they were supposed to prove?

Shall I dig up some pics of UAF thugs hurling bottle's bricks and iron poles? What would it prove. That both groups are full of pillocks? This we already know.

Not entirely sure why you have a boner for the EDL. I have never said I supported them, so your wasting your time and energy proving a non-point and making yourself look like a grade A wazzock in the process.

I wont ignore, as I have never done. Everyone is entitled to their views, but if you are wrong then be prepared to be corrected

Still waiting for you to back up your claims you have made about me on this thread by the way. Don't take too long, I thought it would have been easy to prove what you said I said, after all?

What's the point of wearing a crucifix? What does it depict? The death of our savior? The torture He went through for us? The depravity of the roman empire to instill such a sentence? A symbol of His love?

Make no graven images. The catholic church has for so long relied on images, crosses, paintings, pictures of "Jesus" who are actually modeled after Michaelangelo's uncle. WE ARE NOT TO MAKE IMAGES TO BEHOLD REPRESENTING THE THINGS OF UP ABOVE!!!!

Curse the crucifix, curse the painting, they were all done in vain.

reply to post by Phlynx


Straw and man spring to mind.. The last bastion of those who have lost the argument..

Truth is... WE ALL started in the same place on the same planet.....

Do you want to continue to divide? Are not we ALL equal? Or do we have to get with the Islam program to be equal?...

But you talk crap... Islam is not a nation.... Much like Christianity isnt either.. Does being born in the UK make someone a Christian? Or British??

Being born into Malaysia does NOT make you semitic... Makes you Asian though..