Baby Bible Bashers, Christian child abuse?

reply to post by K J Gunderson


Heh, nice one

Was just about to make a comment regarding the use of the word "fact" when it comes to religion. I think in all the religious discussion on ATS I got to read very very very few FACTS. Most were "educated guesses" or "wishful thinking in line with my religion" or "it's in the bible" kind of wanna-be facts.

Imo there's 2 people. Those who base their life on BELIEF/FAITH, and those who prefer SCIENTIFIC FACTS (while admitting to just "not knowing" if something can't be explained, rather than make guesses based on religion). Both groups are fine, as long as they let the other group live in a way that makes them happy. Sadly that's often not the case.

Fundamentalists try to enter politics and force EVERYONE to abide to rules they try to pass as laws:

1) Anti-divorce
2) Anti-abortion
3) Anti-gay (marriage)
4) Anti Harry Potter (lol...favorite part of the clip)
5) Anti...the list goes on.

What's funny is that they shouldn't bother if someone wants to get divorced, it doesn't HURT them. Also, it doesn't hurt them if gays marry, or if someone decides to abort a 1 week old cell. They might not agree with those practices, and that's their right...but if they expect people to respect their faith, they should show an equal amount of respect for those people practicing stuff they don't agree with.

I'm obviously talking about those crazy evangelist fundamentalist such as the ones in the video clip. I know there's plenty of moderate Christians who are great at letting others live as they want, and they don't try to force their faith upon people...they're all good imo. But the fundamentalists are an evil bunch, especially since they're trying harder and harder to enter politics to influence ALL our daily lives with their believes, whether you agree or not.

reply to post by MrXYZ


Can anyone validate your claims of CRAZY and EVIL for whatever your definition of Fundamentalist may be?
Can anyone validate that Scientist know more about creation than Hebrew scholars?
A viral infection is more obvious than a communists ability to reason faith.
I know that you agree but your master may not
If your contingent has even one sack on your side, then you can explain where the BABIES in the OP are.
YOU KNOW WHAT!!! you can NOT.

Originally posted by Donny 4 million

Can anyone validate that Scientist know more about creation than Hebrew scholars?

Yes. Yes we can.

Certain obscure epistemological concerns aside, we have quantifiably more knowledge about the world today than we did two thousand years ago.

And can you make a conscious decision not to believe this, due to a cognitive bias which prevents you from accepting information which fails to mesh with your existing worldview?

Again, yes.

One side has performed empirical study, controlled experimentation, which has led to reproducible conclusions about initially falsifiable hypotheses.

The other has not.

Science has evidence beyond texts authored by scientists.

Religion (any religion-- not just yours) does not.

What do you say to the Zoroastrians, the Scientologists, the Norse and Greco-Roman Pagans, and the adherents of the hundreds of other major faiths in history who insist that their myths are true, that their Gods have given them direct and incontrovertible revelation?

You see no evidence for their beliefs, do you? When they tell you they have the complete and perfect truth, they sound unreasonable, don't they?

Well, to anyone who doesn't believe as you do, the same is true of your faith.

On the other hand, science is not a matter of faith, or accepting beliefs without testing them first. Science is the discarding of faith, and the endeavor to construct an accurate and meaningful worldview based not on revelation but on observable fact. Scientists have no holy book. Scientists do not indoctrinate, they learn, and they relearn as theories are modified with new evidence and experimentation. Scientists accept truth and reject falsehood, and acknowledge that the boundary between the two changes as new evidence about the world is gathered. If you feel that a theory or accepted concept in science is wrong, become a scientist. Perform an experiment, under controlled conditions, which demonstrates a flaw in an existing hypothesis, theory, or law. Anyone is welcome and able do to this, so long as they are sufficiently trained to grasp the concepts necessary to the performance of the experiment in question.

Religion does not accept a movable boundary between what is known and what is unknown. To the religious fundamentalist, new advances in scientific understanding are lies, only distractions from the complete and unalterable truth of scripture. Evolution? Nope. An Earth older than six thousand years? Nope. If it's not in the Bible, it's simply not true. To the Fundamentalist, no experiment can add to or subtract from the letter of scripture. Any experiment, no matter how consistently reproducible, which appears to contravene some obscure sentence in some specific translation of the Bible, is to be either denounced as the work of the Devil or completely ignored.

Of course, the Bible you read has been edited. It has been censored, translated, retranslated, recensored, and translated again. Read about the Council of Nicea. Read about King James and his scribes. Read about the history of the editing of this text which you insist cannot be edited, which you insist contains (now, after two thousand years of editing, translation, and censorship) the directly revealed and completely infallible word of God.

How can you fail to see the ridiculousness in this? Do you really believe that God spoke to King James, or the patron of whatever edition of the Bible you happen to prefer? Have you no concept of human motivations?

With the sort of mindset you have, there is nothing that could be done to make you see reason; any attempt to defy what you see as the unalterable truth of the letter of the Bible would be rejected as the trickery of Satan, or simply ignored.

But just because your beliefs are immune to reason does not mean that they are infallibly reasonable.

Science is not your enemy. It does not exist to deny the Christian faith. It is an effort to understand the Universe about which you claim to already have all the answers. The difference is in our methods. You read a book, written by many men with many motives over the course of many years. We go out and test things for ourselves, in ways that other people can reproduce. If our initial ideas are proven incorrect, we accept this, and view the new information as an improvement; we do not lash out in anger at a world which dares defy our beliefs.

Saying "science is wrong" (or something to that effect) shows a total lack of understanding about what 'science' means.

Go out and learn about some of these scientific concepts for yourself. Don't just listen to what your preacher says about them.

Consider that new facts about the world have been discovered in the past two thousand years.

Please.

















[edit on 26-3-2010 by The Parallelogram]

I'm not going to wade through four pages of this, so excuse me if its already been mentioned, but similar things were going on at least as early as back in the 1950s; probably even earlier. There were a number of child preachers doing fire-and-brimstone routines back on the tent-revival circuit in the '50s.

And if you go back far enough you hit the children's crusade...

Neither condoning nor condemning...just pointing out that this stuff is not at all new.

I see that the fundamentalists are giving up on this thread, maybe they are alerting back up? :runaway:

My thanks goes to K J Gunderson for relentless effort to fight the ignorance as a shiny knight of reason and mutual tolerance

Gave you many stars for you argued with good conduct and yet undisputedly.

-v

reply to post by Donny 4 million

I am sorry I cannot view the video. But I will call you on this thread anyway.

Why exactly can't you watch the video ?

If you can't watch the videos what in the blazes are you doing entering the foray which is discussing the videos ?

Mind you this is quite a common trait with christians, they are often told about the contents of a book etc, accept it as truth ie they accept what the person has told them is true. Before even reading the book or not even reading the book at all, blind leading the blind eh.

reply to post by K J Gunderson

I just did not understand what the poster was getting at by referencing it.

To be honest neither did I but more importantly neither did the poster by the look of it.

I find it a common occurrence whereby xtians have a tendency to disengage their brain so as to allow the pastors words to come out,not considering the implications of what they say, they simply do not seem to be able to ask themselves "What exactly am I talking about?"

Here's an example -
A christian friend was recently moaning that the PTB had inspected his church. The inspector noted that many of the facilities such as toilets were in the basement and insisted that the church spends a huge amount of money installing an elevator for the disabled.

Oh those PTB inspectors are ruled by satan and out to make life a misery for the church, but jesus will find a way to raise the money for the elevator !

Now both you and I and any other reasonable person will just fall about laughing at the implications of this churchs dilemma.

But when I asked my friend how come disabled people leave the church as well as enter it. His response was to give me a look that mirrored Homer Simpson withe cymbal bashing monkey in his head.

It concerns me a great deal when children are indoctrinated with this half brained mentality.Yet these type of people are the first to condemn others for their childrens' seemingly unhealthy desire to be famous personalities duh!

christianity nor the bible makes people do nothing why pass the blame when who ever does it its all them not god not the bible them. only you make your path. stop balming god for what people do.

Originally posted by lightningz
christianity nor the bible makes people do nothing why pass the blame when who ever does it its all them not god not the bible them. only you make your path. stop balming god for what people do.

Oh good. So you believe that all age requirements should be repealed then, correct? 7 year old children should legally be allowed to vote, have sex with anyone they want, smoke, drink, drive, go to war, etc.

Is that the point you are trying to make?

p.s. Christianity does make you accept that Jesus is your savior. From what I understand, that is like a really big part of belonging to that religion.

[edit on 26-3-2010 by K J Gunderson]

Originally posted by Donny 4 million
reply to post by MrXYZ

 

Can anyone validate your claims of CRAZY and EVIL for whatever your definition of Fundamentalist may be?
Can anyone validate that Scientist know more about creation than Hebrew scholars?
A viral infection is more obvious than a communists ability to reason faith.
I know that you agree but your master may not
If your contingent has even one sack on your side, then you can explain where the BABIES in the OP are.
YOU KNOW WHAT!!! you can NOT.

Yes scientists can know more. They also approach the question in a better way than any religion. They formulate theories, and try to prove those with FACTS. Creationists make a statement about creation without any solid scientific facts, and flat out refuse to adapt or prove their theory. They won't even acknowledge it's a theory, they assume it's a FACT...which it most certainly isn't. Scientists state a theory, and provide EVIDENCE that supports that theory...but they still call it a "theory" until it's 100% proven to be correct. They're humble enough to do so, creationists aren't. We know how fire works, it's a FACT, not a theory...but they call it a theory of evolution for a reason. Creationists don't talk about "the theory of creationism", the honestly try to sell their theory as something that has been proven to be a fact. That whole notion is beyond ridiculous!!

Also, I would like to know why you can't watch the video...it's a simple youtube video, and if you have an internet connection, you should be able to watch it. How can you make statements about the OP and the content of his accusations without looking at what he posted. You're like a judge who says "guilty" without ever looking at any sort of evidence. It's exactly the same thing creationists do, they make a statement about how we came to be, yet refuse to take into consideration any sort of facts that contradict their beliefs.

Originally posted by TELEX
But when I asked my friend how come disabled people leave the church as well as enter it. His response was to give me a look that mirrored Homer Simpson withe cymbal bashing monkey in his head.

That is absolutely beautiful in so many ways.

I really have to look closer into this. This is very interresting. Now that we have proven that "Jesus" is the SUN in our solarsystem, it is still open for what GOD is.. "God" might be the Universe itself. Or something larger than we humans can grasp at our moment living in the universe.

Through the last 35 000 years every single religion leads to the annunaki, and being a psychologist i have with my eyes seen people be lifted by "something",speaking an old sumerian language and spoken that they are "GOD".

I dont know where to start.

The other posters raise a valid point-- why on Earth can't you watch the videos? I took this statement for granted, forgetting that it's not 2003 any more... but the odds that you're on dial-up these days are pretty low.

Is this the case? If so, I'm sorry. But if not, you should seriously consider viewing the videos in the original post. They depict the products of some pretty obvious and pretty vile brainwashing, and they address a number of questions you've brought up.

You know what,this scares me. This is really really scary.

I am going to make a thread in the Religion section -Please all religious watch this.

reply to post by The Parallelogram


I have dial up, but I live in the middle of nowhere haha. Videos never work for me. Half the time I got to wait 30 minutes for a 6 min video to load.

reply to post by The Parallelogram


I asked for proof of Evil and Crazy Christian children.
You fail.
Only ignorance thinks others beliefs are these things.
Only Bolsheviks and Communists think there should be no freedom of religion.

Show me a validated CREATION experiment.
Only ignorance would try. I know you are not IGNORANT are you? laughable

You say this funny, funny thing. LOL LOL

"Anyone is welcome and able do to this, so long as they are sufficiently trained to grasp the concepts necessary to the performance of the experiment in question.

Sufficiently INDOCTRNATED by their MASTERS. Any one can grasp concepts. No stupid peer review required. No costly Harvard wallpaper or cheap on line diploma purchaced from a California print shop.
It is not reserved for the high and mighty scientist that have you bamboozled and hog tied. Ha ha
You crack me up Parallelo

K J Gunderson that not what i said.
What i am saying stop passing the blame and blame the people who do it not the bible or god. what you have no brian to think for one self. did god are the bible make them do it by holding a gun to there head no. so stop acting 5 and grow up and take blame instad of passing it. also these kids there parents or to blame not the bible or god.

[edit on 26-3-2010 by lightningz]

reply to post by TELEX


Regurgitating and embellishing your buddies stories of handicapped Christian individuals is nothing but biased, prejudicial, common, poppycock.
It is the indication of the pure IGNORANCE you profess.

Originally posted by K J Gunderson

Originally posted by nomorecruelty


Ok, maybe this is where the confusion is at - let's look at the definition of "kill" , "put to death" and "murder".

I can tell you right now, this is NOT where the confusion is. Let me help you. I said you god condoned murder. You said he did not. I pointed out that he advocated death for homosexuals. You said he was not instructing anyone to kill them so he did not condone murder. Then we get to the part where he does indeed instruct people to carry out stoning executions. Then you back track and say that he does ask people to kill but it is ok because he says so. This all contradicts your original point as well as the idea that no man was given authority to judge guilt or innocence.

If a person is found guilty of a crime/sin, and is justified via God/Bible for that person to suffer "death", then it would not be considered "murder".

See, this is the problem right here. Found guilty by whom? Judge not, let ye be judged right?

So who did your god grant authority to make this judgment then? You know that in the Unites States, innocent people are executed all the time. Our justice system is far from perfect so obviously you god did not mean that.

However, if it is a death caused by someone with purely malicious intent, then yes, it would be considered "murder".

Follow along with me, won't you. It is your duty to not suffer a witch to live, correct? So how do you know who is and is not a witch without committing the sin of judgment first?

For example, capital punishment - The Bible says murderers are to be "put to death". That would be the consequences (punishment) for the particular sin or crime. According to God/Bible, a murderer is to be executed, and his soul is sent directly to God for judgement.

By another man who has no god given right to judge. That make sense to you?

But does that fall under the category of "murder"? No - because it was a justified "killing" - for punishment.

Not if it was decided and carried out by another man. He among you who is without sin, cast the first tone eh? It seems to me that it is clear that you have no right to even step up to accuse, let alone judge. So who decides who deserves to be justifiably killed?

You have to remember that there are different definitions for "murder", "put to death" and "kill/killing". They are not one in the same.

I know that but a simple statement saying that you should not suffer a witch to live, is condoning murder. Just because you think god says it is ok because witches are so bad. Are you really tying to tell me that if you go kill someone with rocks because they grow herbs in their garden is not murder?

So my final answer still remains - the Bible, nor God, does not condone "murder".
However, he DOES condone the 'killing' of certain people for punishment of their sins. That is the difference.

So my final answer still remains - the Bible, nor God, does not condone "murder".
However, he DOES condone the 'killing' of certain people for punishment of their sins. That is the difference.


No, that is too simplistic. Your god is not Nixon and I think both would be insulted by the insinuation.

If a god tells you that it is your job, duty, requirement to take the life of other people just because they sinned, then he is condoning murder. People such as yourself do not even fully understand what is and is not a sin according to that book so you are certainly in no position to decide that someone should be killed for worshiping a tree. Rationalize it all you like but taking a life for any reason other than self preservation is murder.

And I stand behind what I believe, and said.

You appear to just want to split hairs and create an argument when the bottom line is this -

*You* are free to believe whatever nonsense you want to - I am also free to believe whatever I choose to believe. Yes, I do feel that your beliefs are "nonsense" - I have that right, like you.

And again, I state ............my final answer still remains - the Bible, nor God, does not condone "murder".
However, he DOES condone the 'killing' of certain people for punishment of their sins. That is the difference.

You appear to be just another "scoffer" out to "try" to find something wrong with/in the Bible, and/or God.

And that is the reason you will probably never understand - because God won't allow scoffers to understand if all they're going to do is ridicule and cause strife.

I.e. You are going to be having this very same "argument" with many, many people on this forum - because you haven't been allowed to understand the Bible, or God.

It would be my suggestion that you humble yourself a tad - because, to me, it appears you have a case of the "ego" monster.

Originally posted by K J Gunderson

Originally posted by nomorecruelty


Ok, maybe this is where the confusion is at - let's look at the definition of "kill" , "put to death" and "murder".

I can tell you right now, this is NOT where the confusion is. Let me help you. I said you god condoned murder. You said he did not. I pointed out that he advocated death for homosexuals. You said he was not instructing anyone to kill them so he did not condone murder. Then we get to the part where he does indeed instruct people to carry out stoning executions. Then you back track and say that he does ask people to kill but it is ok because he says so. This all contradicts your original point as well as the idea that no man was given authority to judge guilt or innocence.

If a person is found guilty of a crime/sin, and is justified via God/Bible for that person to suffer "death", then it would not be considered "murder".

See, this is the problem right here. Found guilty by whom? Judge not, let ye be judged right?

So who did your god grant authority to make this judgment then? You know that in the Unites States, innocent people are executed all the time. Our justice system is far from perfect so obviously you god did not mean that.

However, if it is a death caused by someone with purely malicious intent, then yes, it would be considered "murder".

Follow along with me, won't you. It is your duty to not suffer a witch to live, correct? So how do you know who is and is not a witch without committing the sin of judgment first?

For example, capital punishment - The Bible says murderers are to be "put to death". That would be the consequences (punishment) for the particular sin or crime. According to God/Bible, a murderer is to be executed, and his soul is sent directly to God for judgement.

By another man who has no god given right to judge. That make sense to you?

But does that fall under the category of "murder"? No - because it was a justified "killing" - for punishment.

Not if it was decided and carried out by another man. He among you who is without sin, cast the first tone eh? It seems to me that it is clear that you have no right to even step up to accuse, let alone judge. So who decides who deserves to be justifiably killed?

You have to remember that there are different definitions for "murder", "put to death" and "kill/killing". They are not one in the same.

I know that but a simple statement saying that you should not suffer a witch to live, is condoning murder. Just because you think god says it is ok because witches are so bad. Are you really tying to tell me that if you go kill someone with rocks because they grow herbs in their garden is not murder?

So my final answer still remains - the Bible, nor God, does not condone "murder".
However, he DOES condone the 'killing' of certain people for punishment of their sins. That is the difference.

So my final answer still remains - the Bible, nor God, does not condone "murder".
However, he DOES condone the 'killing' of certain people for punishment of their sins. That is the difference.


No, that is too simplistic. Your god is not Nixon and I think both would be insulted by the insinuation.

If a god tells you that it is your job, duty, requirement to take the life of other people just because they sinned, then he is condoning murder. People such as yourself do not even fully understand what is and is not a sin according to that book so you are certainly in no position to decide that someone should be killed for worshiping a tree. Rationalize it all you like but taking a life for any reason other than self preservation is murder.

And I stand behind what I believe, and said.

You appear to just want to split hairs and create an argument when the bottom line is this -

*You* are free to believe whatever nonsense you want to - I am also free to believe whatever I choose to believe. Yes, I do feel that your beliefs are "nonsense" - I have that right, like you.

And again, I state ............my final answer still remains - the Bible, nor God, does not condone "murder".
However, he DOES condone the 'killing' of certain people for punishment of their sins. That is the difference.

You appear to be just another "scoffer" out to "try" to find something wrong with/in the Bible, and/or God.

And that is the reason you will probably never understand - because God won't allow scoffers to understand if all they're going to do is ridicule and cause strife.

I.e. You are going to be having this very same "argument" with many, many people on this forum - because you haven't been allowed to understand the Bible, or God.

It would be my suggestion that you humble yourself a tad - because, to me, it appears you have a case of the "ego" monster.