Man Jailed For Cartoons Of Children

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


I couldn't agree more with you :-)
Thank you for saying what I was thinking..

reply to post by silo13


Of course you won't debate your opinion ... yet you are here you are shoving your opinion down everyones' throat, how thoughtful.

Of course the only thing I have seen from you is insults, irrational accusations, and disillusioned opinions.

Hey though, luckily that is your right ...

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Wow. 14 pages in 24 hours. Good job!

Yeah i think it's a personal best.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I agree with your first post 100%. I haven't read the whole thread, but my position is that this is a form of "thought police". The fact that these thoughts are put on paper does not constitute a crime and this tendency to use emotion (instead of logic) to punish people for doing something that doesn't have a victim is dangerous, in my opinion.

That is basically a summary of everything this boils down to and my own views on the matter.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I am a victim of childhood sexual molestation. I wish my abusers had looked at cartoons to get their jollies.

Now I'll go read what some have to say.

You have mentioned your past before and this is why i value your input so much on this thread. Thank you BH. I put my emotions aside to discuss this issue logically and that is difficult, but for someone who has experienced this first hand to do the same is truly remarkable.

Thank you and all the best.

reply to post by Nurv47

Of course you won't debate your opinion ... yet you are here you are shoving your opinion down everyones' throat, how thoughtful.

LOL Quit acting the victim. You don't like what I have to say no one's forcing you to read my posts. *click*

Of course the only thing I have seen from you is insults, irrational accusations, and disillusioned opinions.

Awww you haven't been looking too hard then have you?

You spend so much time with those wittle pewsonal attacks ob yours and dis-railing the thread with off topic posts you're missing the best parts!

Here, I'll put it in a post just for you so you can't miss it this time hun.

If you or anyone else thinks a pedophile is going to stop at cartoon porn? You're wrong.

What do all addicts have in common whether they are addicts of drugs, sex, overeating, etc?

They always want MORE. Need more. Have to have more.

It starts out small, then progresses until the addict is unable to reach the stimulation levels they seek with usual doses of whatever it is they're addicted to be it drugs, porn, smoke, whatever.

To achieve the same level of stimulation or high, you need more, it's always more.

So if you really think these perverts are going to stop at cartoon depictions of children being raped and abused, you are most sorely wrong.

peace

Originally posted by Phre0nBurn
Sorry, but this is just ridiculous.

What if the 'children' in the drawings were supposed to depict 15 year olds?

Is that 'an abomination'? If you say yes, what about if it is in another country that allows sex at that age?

Or, are you just going to say "Well they have it WRONG! Because I don't agree with that!"


But... Why? WHY don't you agree?

Because it's wrong?

Or because you're told it's wrong?

Everything is relative.

I was going to bring this up in one of my previous posts, but forgot.

Less than a century ago people where married and engaging in sexual intercourse at the age of 15 and sometimes younger. Was it child rape then? No, why is that? Because our "ideas" and "laws" about the situation where different then. Can a 15 year old be sexually mature? Yes.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting this in any way, but it is all relative. What you deem as "sick" is deemed as sick because of the way society and the "law" sees things.

Once again, this is a VICTIMLESS crime. If he had been looking at ACTUAL child pornography then that is incredibly horrible and wrong, because there is a victim, and that victim is out on display.

I add my resounding NO. And accept that free speech as an ideology is something we have to give up in certain circumstances. Like circumstances related to child porn. I can live with that. Because this issue is not really about freedom of speech. IMHO it is about stating what we as a society, will or will not tolerate. The law enacted says as much. The law this man broke. The law this man broke and pleaded guilty too. The Guilty plea relating to seven books.

A guilty plea honestly doesn't mean anything besides him having a crappy attorney. You can NEVER sacrifice freedom for security, it doesn't work. There are certain things that should be taken very seriously, child porn is one of them. However a CARTOON depicting the possibility of underage persons engaging in sex is not one of them.

Originally posted by silo13
reply to post by Silicis n Volvo

 

what you mean is you have no logic to your thinking and no basis behind your opinion...you dont know why you think what you think.
and because your losing the argument the only thing you can think to say is in basic terms.......
your wrong because i say so....end of story
its called dismissive arguing.
you cant prove your point so you assertively brush asside anybody else rational theories and close the argument down by saying im just right because i know i am.
useless in a real debate

Oh bother. Here we go again, someone who can't read.
I posted on page one I will not debate my stand on this issue.
The OP asked for opinions, I gave mine. Period.

And for you to state that I don't know why I think what I think or have logic behind it?
'Get outta my head get outta my head.' LOL

Facts are you have no idea why I think what I do much less the logic behind it because I haven't told you.
And why not? Because frankly, it's none of your business.
So go bark up another tree or better yet prove to us you can read my mind like you seem to think you can. I'm thinking of a number between looser and 0.

So it's been established there is nothing you can say, no mud you can sling or insult you can hurl, no faulty logic you can try to coax me out with that will cause me to change my mind or debate you. Punto.

That's why I don't debate it and that's why you shouldn't bother either. You're wasting your time trying to win a one sided argument.

And just in case you missed the other part of my first post, the one where I said I wouldn't debate this issue?

In my opinion people who condone the viewing of children as sexual objects, to be used for sexual gratification - IN ANY FORM - are as guilty as pedophiles themselves.

peace

[edit on 15-2-2010 by silo13]

I didn't even read your entire post. If you're not going to debate your stand on the issue STOP POSTING HERE. There is no point to come here, throw your "opinion" in everyones faces, yell that you're right, then storm out.

Your opinion is moot, since you choose to think that you are correct in every way. Please, find another thread to inject your ignorance.

reply to post by silo13

LOL Quit acting the victim. You don't like what I have to say no one's forcing you to read my posts. *click*

Victim? No, I simply find it amusing how much of a double-standard you have.

Awww you haven't been looking too hard then have you?

You spend so much time with those wittle pewsonal attacks ob yours and dis-railing the thread with off topic posts you're missing the best parts!

Oh my ... so much hypocrisy that I don't think my wittle mind can't take it.

Let's see here.

If you or anyone else thinks a pedophile is going to stop at cartoon porn?

You're wrong.

So, you have the ability to completely comprehend and understand exactly what every single pedophile who looks at cartoon porn will do right? I will admit that they are at an increased risk ... but that doesn't give you, me, or anyone the right to change them with future crimes.

What do all addicts have in common whether they are addicts of drugs, sex, overeating, etc?

They always want MORE. Need more. Have to have more.

It starts out small, then progresses until the addict is unable to reach the stimulation levels they seek with usual doses of whatever it is they're addicted to be it drugs, porn, smoke, whatever.

To achieve the same level of stimulation or high, you need more, it's always more.

You should tell that to all the smokers in the world that ONLY smoke one pack a day ... nothing more, nothing less ...

or better yet to all the people that have their addictions under control.

According to your logic, everyone that has an addiction will simply keep going, and going, and going, and going, and going, and going (like the energizer bunny?) at increased rate and quantity in a never ending chain?

Well, I would assume everyone would be dead if that was the case ... for we all have addictions ... and if we were to feed them at an increased rate indefinitely it would begin to consume our very lives ... oh what that does happen ... to some people ...

But you cannot assume all people are the same ... and very less charge them of "future crimes" or "thought crimes" because it has been observed in others ....

So if you really think these perverts are going to stop at cartoon depictions of children being raped and abused, you are most sorely wrong.

Are you honestly telling me that there has NEVER been one pedophile that had enough control to stop at these cartoons or to simply not pursue a career of abducting children and molesting them? I HIGHLY doubt it ... I can almost guarantee it, except I don't go around researching such things. I have a feeling you haven't either and you are just illogically spewing your opinions with what little "evidence" you think you have.

In any case ... I disagree with you.



EDIT: I also think we should just move away from these silly attacks and agree to disagree ... or are you simply crusading for "the children" again?








[edit on 15-2-2010 by Nurv47]

Originally posted by silo13
If you or anyone else thinks a pedophile is going to stop at cartoon porn? You're wrong.

If you think NOT looking at them is going to somehow PREVENT molestation, you are also wrong.

In my opinion people who condone the viewing of children as sexual objects, to be used for sexual gratification - IN ANY FORM - are as guilty as pedophiles themselves.

This is going to be my last reply directed at you. I can't in good faith argue with someone who has no logical basis or backbone to stand up for their own argument this frequently.

Saying that people who "condone" (aka support freedom and are against thought crimes) this are as bad as pedophiles, is like saying people that support the legalization of marijuana and/or other drugs are drug addicts or potheads. I am for the decriminalization/legalization of both, however I have never touched any drug in my entire life. By your logic however, I am a crazy pothead drug addict.

Please, not thinking logically is one thing, but throwing around ad hominem attacks and then refusing to even debate the merits of your own point is another. Like I said, if you don't want to debate your opinion why post it?

reply to post by silo13

And if you think these pedophiles are going to be satisfied with cartoons forever?

How do you know this individual was a pedophile? The article says he was a comic book collector? If the individual isn't a pedophile should he still be jailed? Should we really have a law on the books that may have individuals jailed even though they are moral and ethical individuals? (not saying this individual was but just pointing out that even if guilty of this "crime" he may still be an ethical and moral individual.)

Cartoon porn will only delay the inevitable.

If it is inevitable, as you state, then wouldn't a delay be a good thing?

Personally, I don't believe a pedophile would be gratified by a cartoon. Any more then a serial killer would be gratified by violent movies or a con man by stories of deception.

Victimless "crimes" should never be illegal. If you believe animation's victim is the degradation of society then you have a lot of work to do. We need to highly censor all books, movies, plays, websites, video games, etc, etc, etc. Anything with content that portrays an illegal act, by your logic, will cause individuals to reenact those acts.



[edit on 15-2-2010 by harvib]

i love stuff like this...to me it shows just how completely forked up we 'advanced' humans truly are.

to be truly consistent with the 'spirit' of ridiculous legislation like this we would have to ban anything that implies sexual behavior with minors involved, and like a previous poster commented, that would include vast swaths of movies and literature in which the characters are right presumed to be under 18 (high school type movies) and before anyone says 'but maybe in the movie they are all 18yr old seniors...' please get real, we all know percentage wise most seniors in highschool are not 18.


lets face it, we dont want to think of kids as having any sexuality at all until they have reached this magically age of 18 that was pulled out of someones bureaucratic arse.....

Can ANY ONE provide a verifiable study that cartoon porn is detrimental to any one ?
Or can any one show a verifiable study that shows cartoon porn leads to child molestation ?
Or makes a pedophile move on to real children ?

If there is no verifiable correlation then the law is stepping out sides its bounds .

Hey guys by these definitions those crude drawings on the bathroom walls might just be child porn . Especially if it was a 12 yo depicting his girl friend Which is the mentality of who writes on bathroom walls any how .

I really am very interested in how many child molesters did in fact have these types of comics in there possession or in digital form on their computer . What are the statistics of it any how .

For me if there was a 70% of molesters did in fact collect this material . Then that would be a justifiable reason for the law as written . But I dont think that is the case .

Until I see a verifiable proof of the comics being a detriment to welfare and safety of a child I will have to stand on it is over reaching .

If we truly draw a line and say "this depiction is illegal" then we will have to empty much or our nation's art museums. No more little boy peeing statues. No more young nudes. Art will suffer. We must tolerate what some find obscene and keep the line hazy in order to be a civilized nation. No, I am not for child pornography but this man's crime is less detrimental to society than jaywalking.

Originally posted by silo13
reply to post by Nurv47

 

Of course you won't debate your opinion ... yet you are here you are shoving your opinion down everyones' throat, how thoughtful.

LOL Quit acting the victim. You don't like what I have to say no one's forcing you to read my posts. *click*

Of course the only thing I have seen from you is insults, irrational accusations, and disillusioned opinions.

Awww you haven't been looking too hard then have you?

You spend so much time with those wittle pewsonal attacks ob yours and dis-railing the thread with off topic posts you're missing the best parts!

Here, I'll put it in a post just for you so you can't miss it this time hun.

If you or anyone else thinks a pedophile is going to stop at cartoon porn? You're wrong.

What do all addicts have in common whether they are addicts of drugs, sex, overeating, etc?

They always want MORE. Need more. Have to have more.

It starts out small, then progresses until the addict is unable to reach the stimulation levels they seek with usual doses of whatever it is they're addicted to be it drugs, porn, smoke, whatever.

To achieve the same level of stimulation or high, you need more, it's always more.

So if you really think these perverts are going to stop at cartoon depictions of children being raped and abused, you are most sorely wrong.

peace

Any of you who are agreeing with this bozo are out of your minds in several different ways.

This guy was a "collector". Obviously a comic book collector, not a kiddie porn collector. If he had been a kiddie porn collector, he would have had lots of kiddie porn. The worst things they could find to try to bust him were comic books. He had lots of hentai and manga crap. I've noticed only ONE poster on here who has ever actually BEEN to Japan. This stuff is everywhere over there. You see totally square businessmen reading this stuff on the train. High society ladies reading it in the back of their limos. Nobody thinks its a big deal. Of course, those Japs are weirdos but that's another story.

If this guy had been into kiddie porn, how come he only had hentai as a crime? I bet he had thousands of comic books and maybe one of them contained this "cartoon kiddie porn" . They are COMIC BOOKS. If they were TRYING to bust him for something, they certainly would not have overlooked any REAL evidence.

Why is it OK to make drawings, cartoons, video games or even movies about people, including kids, being MURDERED? In fact, the average kid will witness EIGHT THOUSAND MURDERS on TV right in their own living rooms by the time they finish elementary school, and over 200,000 by the time they are 18. And, do they all turn into murderers? Duh. Actually, it most likely does cause a lot more murders to happen because people become desensitized to it by watching it so much. But that's another whole debate.

Also, they have been writing this hentai and manga stuff for a long time. How old ARE the cartoons, actually? Bugs Bunny is eighty years old! By that logic, Pebbles Flintstone is over forty! So it's OK to make cartoons with her and Bamm Bamm getting it on, right? Because they are NOT KIDS.

LISA SIMPSON is over twenty one! So it's OK to make cartoons of her and Bart getting it on, right? Oh wait, no, that would be illegal cause that's INCEST. Oh wait, no it's not because they AREN'T REAL.

So if I drew a comic book with Bart and Lisa and Pebbles having a three way, you think I should be jailed, right, you yoyos? What should I be jailed for, kiddie porn? But they are over 18. Incest? Because they are RELATED to each other? Or should I just be jailed for not agreeing with YOU?

This is the largest blow against free speech possible, that's all it is, and by agreeing with it you are tightening your own shackles without even knowing it.

A double edged sword here. On one hand I believe that human being are sexual beings. Anyone who has ever raised a child knows that even children show signs of sexuality at a very young age. I don't think we can blame one person or one group of people, but everyone because we are all interconnnected, even to things we may not agree with or like. Many countries around the world are okay with protraying innocents as sex objects; even in America on the outside we hate it and condemn it, but Sexslavery is higher than ever in our own backyards! So if everyone hates it then why is it happening still and why is it so wide spread? When Settlers first came to the Americas the men ordered child brides for wives(girls as young as Six years of age). In the middle ages it was prevalent practice to marry and have children young, supposedly for child bearing purposes. This is more than just a societal issue; it goes down to the very root of our psychology. Every human has the capabilty to commit the most horrible and gruesome acts; but every human also has the ability to show the most loving and warm acts of kindness. If we cannot face within ourselves these demons then mankind will never be able to break free from the bonds of hatred, jealousy, and deciet.

reply to post by avatar01

I couldnt have said it any better. Thank you for such an eloquent and balanced view. All i know is anyone who has ever looked at porn or has done a "free porn "search has seen child pornography. maybe they didnt click the link, but you and I both know that it was a a damn kid in that picture; so we ARE all guilty in some way.

Why would anybody be arresting this guy anyway? Who called the police?

reply to post by Klavier


So you are in fact condoning the idea of thinking about having sex with a minor, to even admit this disturbes me, and is troublesome. How could so many of you condone this? i can't imagine that many people wanting to see or imagine rape, or murder. Let alone with minors.

I bet a lot of you read these types of things or borderline to it, to take such offence at it.

This truely is a reflection on the twisted world we live in. Freedom of speech used to mean you respected the right of others to express themselves in a free society, it never mean some can say what they want at the expense, hurt, or expliotation of others. All of this should be looked down upon, the fact that we are even having a debate about what appears to minors ingaged in sex makes me see how far we are from fixing our futures.

Anything that has a "grey" area when concerning children is wrong and i hope you understand this.

reply to post by humilisunus


Sorry but it seems your post is illogical.

Peace.

Originally posted by silo13
Facts are you have no idea why I think what I do much less the logic behind it because I haven't told you.

...you have a point there... unless you tell someone what you're thinking, they can only guess... right?..

...so, if its wrong for someone to presume what your thoughts are, then it is also wrong for you to presume that you know the comic collector's thoughts or to presume he is a pedophile or to presume that anyone who looks at those kinds of cartoons are pedophiles or to presume that anyone who supports someone's right to own pornographic cartoons are pedophiles...

...it would also be wrong for you to presume the cartoons in question are pornographic material representing human children if you have not viewed them yourself... if you have viewed them yourself and still maintain your stance, you would, then, again, be failing to apply your rules to yourself...