What’s your Best EVIDENCE ‘FOR’ or ‘AGAINST’ God? Intellectual debate, please…

A few of the major problems I have with the concept of a god.

1.define god.If (christian)god is so powerful why did he NEED his son's blood to wash away the sins of mankind,why wouldn't water do it?

2.Why bother with the whole no other gods before me thing if there are no other gods.that would be like telling your gf she can't date other men even though you are the only man in existence.

3.why only one?I have never heard of a life form that had only one member of it's species.did he/she not have a mother and or father?

4.I imagine i am god in the void,I get bored,lonely,whatever.I create a universe.I create people.I wouldn't want them running around shouting how great i am all day.I'd want a friend to talk to
even disagree with me at times,you know a friend.not a servant.

I'll bet god is a teenager and wasn't allowed to make a universe but did anyways and he doesn't want his parents to find out so he doesn't want any proof lying around.that's why we need faith.

dude you are sooo busted.
see?betcha wish you'd given me that pony now huh mister?

Really the only thing I see dramatically in favor of a god I feel is irony.
when someone gets a full karmic b*slap right in front of you.

The best evidence against God is that there's no evidence at all for God. It's the same with Santa Claus too..

reply to post by OldThinker

What’s your Best EVIDENCE ‘FOR’ or ‘AGAINST’ God?

Hmmm, no evidence for a god, so let me see............. nope! Nada!!! All hypothesis state null!

Intellectual debate, please…

Intellectual debate with a theist! That never happens! Interesting how in previous threads as soon as people disagree with you, the conversation becomes less intellectual because it's never about rational discussion - it's only ever an argument about belief or non-belief in some pointless & invisible entity. That's because there's no evidence to support the belief, and so non-beief is logical.

And then the theist's claim non-belief requires faith as well, and go off on a tangent trying to convince non-believer's of this, and then non-believer's just have enough of listening to the same boring old and pointless argument that makes no logical sense, and end up leaving the thread with theist's remaining behind to kiss each other and praise each other about agreeing on their beliefs.

[edit on 23-11-2009 by john124]

I can't really present any evidence for god, apart from saying take a deep, deep look at the cosmos and everything in it then ask yourself "why".
My faith teaches that god is literally infinite in the true sense of the word, and is therefore inconceivable, unfathomable. Every time something about him is perceived there will be something else to perceive because he/his energies go on forever and are inexhaustable .I'll end by saying that DNA is a program. therefore there must be a programmer.

reply to post by bargoose

therefore there must be a programmer.

I agree there's much more than we currently understand, but who programmed the "programmer"? Is the concept of a god for us the same for "god", and so it goes on with an infinite number of gods?

because he/his energies go on forever and are inexhaustable

The concept of an infinite existence of a multiverse may be plausible, but a being that created each universe that lives forever does not seem plausible.

[edit on 23-11-2009 by john124]

Originally posted by bargoose
I'll end by saying that DNA is a program. therefore there must be a programmer.

The programmer is called natural selection.


[edit on 23-11-2009 by rhinoceros]

O.k lets assume natural selection is the programmer. This also means that all life is merely a combination of chemicals. Now what the the scientists need to do is with their advanced chemical knowledge they need to create life in their labs. Lets starts with something simple like bacteria or some other microbe. Get some hydrogen atoms, oxygen and carbon atoms which are the typical building blocks for such lifeforms and arrange them to become alive. No , they can't demonstate this. Yes they can manipulate and adjust existing life forms but not create. They need to demonstrate their theories before critisizing those who choose to believe in a hidden animating principle.

My evidence for...

I have a healing ministry for those who ask God for healing but i have never received or asked for healing for myself for the cancer that i have had for two years.
When i was diagnosed with cancer i was put on hormones for six months and then i had radiotherapy every day for four weeks.
Over the next twelve months i had blood samples taken and my PSA levels were always rising. That is not a good sign, then around 5 weeks ago the specialist called me in and said that i still have cancer even though i knew that anyway
Three weeks ago i had two full body scans to find out how bad it had become. But in the meantime my daughter and her friend laid hands on me and prayed for healing.
I knew then that i had been healed and thanked God for the healing on the morning of my next appointment.
My wife and daughter came with me to find out what the next step was with my illness but i told them that i was only going for the good news that i had been healed.When i saw the specialist he was amazed that he could find no evidence of any cancer even though all the tests say i still have it.

People said that i should pray and thank God for the healing but i tell them that i did that before i went for the results. Isn't God good?

I have prayed for many people and they have been healed of physical ailments, but this is the frst time that i have received healing for myself.

I have all the proof that i ever need that God is real.

One thing i tell people about God is that when all else fails I have him to turn to.
You may ask why i had never prayer before i did and my answer is that God gave people the skills to help each other out in times of need, but when that failed i went to the creator himself.

Cool or what?






[edit on 23-11-2009 by jon1]

To me the big bang and god are the same thing. If the big bang created the universe and life, then the big bang could be thought of as "god"?

If we're talking about god as we believe on earth, I don't get it, because sometimes life is so unfair and unjust.

Originally posted by GideonHM
reply to post by Phenomium

 

The idea of the clay shaping the potter comes from years of experience as the artist comes to better understand the medium of clay (or any art) and is FIGURATIVE, not literal.

Besides a portion of the artist always remains with the clay and vice versa, unless the artist just forgets everything and starts from the very beginning, never learning a thing.

I am a professionally certified potter, and your perspective shows no deeper understanding of the arts in general, ceramics, or of the spiritual connection between intelligent beings and the arts than someone just off the street who doesn't understand what you are discussing.

Go find some spirituality that actually counts for something. You missed the entire point.

You're telling me that I need to go find some spirituality? You are saying that I don't know the difference between figurative and literal? First, I knew it was figurative....I was only responding to a literal reference that someone else laid out....because it seemed to be the only thing he understood. As for getting some spirituality LOL, I got the reference of the clay and the potter from the bible....the very words of Jesus you brainiac. It sounds to me like you are the one who needs to get a clue. Geez, a professional potter (if that's even a job) who doesn't even know the parable of the potter and clay from the bible ......and telling me to get spirituality. LOL , this is just classic.

My best "evidence" for God would be the order which we see in this universe...I don't believe ordered information arises out of chaos. Even Neil Tyson (who I enjoy listening to) when trying to debunk a finely tuned universe does not touch on the information problem, but instead relies on perceived imperfection (deflection). You could argue that information itself is only a perceived quality, but it doesn't change the fact that something like dna resembles a language, as does geometry and other fundamentals. Everything points towards design, the fiercely fought elephant.

Since "butterflys causing hurricanes" cannot be measured or have quantity applied to them, random events and chaos become the substrate in which we reside even if untrue.

My best evidence for a Christian God are the qualities which the Christian one is described as being comprised of (love) as this is what I have experienced. You may argue he is not and that he is vengeful and childlike, but to understand God in human terms negates what he is. He say's himself that his ways are not ours nor are his thoughts (and I am exceedingly glad for that). Beyond personal testimony there is not much aside from faith, but firm ground seems to appear when you take the leap.



[edit on 23-11-2009 by SmokeandShadow]

whoops, double post!

[edit on 23-11-2009 by SmokeandShadow]

Originally posted by the_grand_pooh-bah
A few of the major problems I have with the concept of a god.

1.define god.If (christian)god is so powerful why did he NEED his son's blood to wash away the sins of mankind,why wouldn't water do it?

2.Why bother with the whole no other gods before me thing if there are no other gods.that would be like telling your gf she can't date other men even though you are the only man in existence.

3.why only one?I have never heard of a life form that had only one member of it's species.did he/she not have a mother and or father?

4.I imagine i am god in the void,I get bored,lonely,whatever.I create a universe.I create people.I wouldn't want them running around shouting how great i am all day.I'd want a friend to talk to
even disagree with me at times,you know a friend.not a servant.

I'll bet god is a teenager and wasn't allowed to make a universe but did anyways and he doesn't want his parents to find out so he doesn't want any proof lying around.that's why we need faith.

dude you are sooo busted.
see?betcha wish you'd given me that pony now huh mister?

Really the only thing I see dramatically in favor of a god I feel is irony.
when someone gets a full karmic b*slap right in front of you.

1. You are confusing "power" with strength (where neither is applicable) and presume many things about sin (its nature, purpose, cost e.c.t). Clearly if people are born into sin, that explains why water was insufficient.

2. God is a title and does nothing to describe the one it is being attributed to. Anyone could be a "God" but that does not mean they are the creator of the universe (the one who really deserves it).

3. You make a bunch of presumptions. I am not putting you down or anything, but you are imagining God in such an infinitely small,narrow and shallow light. A species? I won't rule anything out but it would seem the whole omnipresent thing affects that understanding.

4. That is the thought process you would have. Is it God's? Running around shouting how he is great is what some might do, but they are not commanded to. He does want us to know him.

Hello ATS'ers,

I must say this is a fantastic topic and forum and i'd like to put some of my thoughts about God and existence out there for you...

I was raised a Christian from birth, but became heavily interested in science and astrology at a young age, and quickly lost faith in God, to the point of not believing and turning Atheist after my dad was taken from us. There are just too many points which have all but been proved to debunk any basis for a supreme being (in the religious texts use of the word). For example, the bible states in as many words that the theory of geocentricity (Sun orbiting Earth) which would have stood in high stead many years ago (before Copernicus, Kepler and Galilei anyways)

My personal thoughts are that we have all evolved from (possibly now extinct) creatures related to chimps (which is the widely held position from scientists), and the universe as we know it is finite and started from a 'big bang' which in turn was caused by a 'big crush/squeeze'

We use a time and date system that us humans invented, so just because something seems very old or young (i.e. millions of years) it doesn't mean it's old to the universe, that is why the concept of a 'big bang' seems far fetched to a lot of people because they can't grasp the timescales involved.

I think the major question that has to be answered before scientists can prove/disprove Einstein's special theory of relativity (speed of light travel etc.) is where did the INITIAL GRAVITY CENTRE come from in our universe?? That is the burning question that will lead scientists to be able to study blackholes and such-like with ease.

A few of the other theories (far fetched as they may seem) that have really got me thinking really are:

- Universe inside a Universe We are tiny creatures in a small universe, and our existence is the result of a LARGE creature in his universe (a universe inside a universe if you like? - or if you've seen the Simpsons episode where Lisa creates a civilisation in a petri dish?)

- There is a 'SUPREME BEING' Not in the religious texts sense of the word, rather a MASTER BUILDER, who crafted the universe much in the same way that Christians believe their god did - but let natural evolution occur (as oppose to Christians who believe every individual organism is unique and non related on a genetic level but on a spiritual level). This could explain how the universe came to be in the first place, but would ask some questions such as where is this master builder now?

- Infinite Universe The universe is INFINITE - realistically scienctists at the moment can only debate on whether the universe is finite or infinite (due to red shift of galaxies indicating that they are moving away from us), if the universe was indeed infinite then the universe would not have had it's big bang, meaning the galaxies stars and planets (not in their current guises obviously...) must have always been here too, thereby meaning that life too is infinite and we are just links of a big circular chain?

- Aliens! You may laugh, but I have no doubts in my mind that we are not alone in the universe. Talking to a lot of people regarding this and I have established that the reason most people laugh is because they are convinced we are the only intelligent life in the universe. What's to say our existence wasn't triggered by some kind of alien landing on this planet, took a piss in our lifeless ocean and the cells cultivated themselves into lifeforms over many years? FAR FETCHED I KNOW, but who is to debunk that theory?

Also one very interesting point, which I am sure you are all aware of - if we do not believe in the God described in the bible, why do we ALL use a time system relating to the 'birth of his son' - Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists ALL use it everyday, implying in some way we all accept the bible? REVOLT!!

I thank you for your time and for reading this.

Pete (England)

Originally posted by SmokeandShadow
1. You are confusing "power" with strength (where neither is applicable) and presume many things about sin (its nature, purpose, cost e.c.t). Clearly if people are born into sin, that explains why water was insufficient.

2. God is a title and does nothing to describe the one it is being attributed to. Anyone could be a "God" but that does not mean they are the creator of the universe (the one who really deserves it).

3. You make a bunch of presumptions. I am not putting you down or anything, but you are imagining God in such an infinitely small,narrow and shallow light. A species? I won't rule anything out but it would seem the whole omnipresent thing affects that understanding.

4. That is the thought process you would have. Is it God's? Running around shouting how he is great is what some might do, but they are not commanded to. He does want us to know him.

Not to upset any of your beliefs, but I am intrigued as to how the other 'Gods' in religion fit into Christianity?

Judaism and Hinduism are around 1000 years older than the first writings of the bible, so I was just curious as to what the 'Good Book' has to say about them? Surely they are worshipping false idols by believing in other 'Gods' despite the fact that the Christian 'God' is probably the youngest in the grand scheme of things?

Look forward to your reply,

Pete

Another proof for God is mathematics. Please bear with me on this one, I am still trying to formulate this in my own mind.

I believe many evolutionists and athiests live in a world that starts with 1 and ends with 9 (1 big bang 1 single celled organism and then we meet our end, pretty simple). How do you explain God? Some believe He has no beginning and no end. Some say there is no God. I believe the proof for God's existence may involve Zero (insert snark hear). The shape itself has no beginning and no end, maybe that is coincidence. Zero is used to represent the absence of something and yet is the start of everything. It is used in mathematics to create higher numbers 10, 1000, 1,000,000 etc. How far can you count? Without zero, complex forumulas would not be possible. Where did we come from, where are we going?

Were the Fixx right?

Originally posted by the_grand_pooh-bah
A few of the major problems I have with the concept of a god.

1.define god.If (christian)god is so powerful why did he NEED his son's blood to wash away the sins of mankind,why wouldn't water do it?

Water is not flesh and cannot wash the sins of flesh away. Only one that is like us can save us.

2.Why bother with the whole no other gods before me thing if there are no other gods.that would be like telling your gf she can't date other men even though you are the only man in existence.

Because in your analogy, another "woman" would pose as a "man" if she was "lesbian". Get it? I'll explain just in case...another "god" would pose as "the true God" if it was "malevolent". (don't get mad that I associated lesbianism with malevolence, it's just an analogy)

3.why only one?I have never heard of a life form that had only one member of it's species.did he/she not have a mother and or father?

He is the Father of all species. "The buck stops here."

4.I imagine i am god in the void,I get bored,lonely,whatever.I create a universe.I create people.I wouldn't want them running around shouting how great i am all day.I'd want a friend to talk to
even disagree with me at times,you know a friend.not a servant.

He wants us to be his friends. He wants to share in the joys of our lives, but the only way we can be joyful is to serve Him and be righteous. Are you happy being around your friends when they are depressed and, for instance, strung out on drugs?

I'll bet god is a teenager and wasn't allowed to make a universe but did anyways and he doesn't want his parents to find out so he doesn't want any proof lying around.that's why we need faith.

Why would God need to prove Himself to anybody? If I was the ultimate creator of everything and you, MY CREATION, asked me to prove myself, I'd probably say, "You ARE my proof."

Regards, A2D

Originally posted by texas-pete

Not to upset any of your beliefs, but I am intrigued as to how the other 'Gods' in religion fit into Christianity?

Judaism and Hinduism are around 1000 years older than the first writings of the bible, so I was just curious as to what the 'Good Book' has to say about them? Surely they are worshipping false idols by believing in other 'Gods' despite the fact that the Christian 'God' is probably the youngest in the grand scheme of things?

Look forward to your reply,

Pete

The oldest belief about the Earth is that it's flat. So, in relation...well...you see where I'm headed.

Originally posted by dusty1
Another proof for God is mathematics. Please bear with me on this one, I am still trying to formulate this in my own mind.

I believe many evolutionists and athiests live in a world that starts with 1 and ends with 9 (1 big bang 1 single celled organism and then we meet our end, pretty simple). How do you explain God? Some believe He has no beginning and no end. Some say there is no God. I believe the proof for God's existence may involve Zero (insert snark hear). The shape itself has no beginning and no end, maybe that is coincidence. Zero is used to represent the absence of something and yet is the start of everything. It is used in mathematics to create higher numbers 10, 1000, 1,000,000 etc. How far can you count? Without zero, complex forumulas would not be possible. Where did we come from, where are we going?

Were the Fixx right?

Was it not 'God' who said "I am the Alpha and the Omega?" the beginning and the end? The problem with a belief in 'God' is that it is so bloody contradictive. Ergo I do not

Originally posted by texas-pete

Was it not 'God' who said "I am the Alpha and the Omega?" the beginning and the end? The problem with a belief in 'God' is that it is so bloody contradictive. Ergo I do not

Well even from the laws of thermodynamics we can see that the Universe will eventually die out from maximum heat entropy. There's always a beginning and an end, ALWAYS - BEGINNING - END. Infinite - Alpha - Omega.