An Invisible Force

I decided to post this, THEN I'll go back through the thread and see just how evil I am.

I can empathize with you, Schroedinger, but I'm not at all that way. I can kill anything, or anyone, at the drop of a hat. There IS a catch, though. I have to have a REASON. Even then, I can still feel the tug away from it, but I've learned to overcome it.

Let me explain, before the flames start my way. When I was but a wee slip, I, like Schroedinger's Dog, was picked at incessantly. And I stood and took it. I was a hillbilly existing in the city, and that seems to have been the source of the ridicule. I took ungodly abuse from others when I was little. I too could feel that "force", or whatever it was, holding me back. In retrospect, I think it was probably psychological, but I'm by no means certain of that. It's equally possibly, at least in my mind, that it was part of my "training".

Then one day I snapped. I must have been around 10 or 11. It was a sight to behold, and completely unexpected. Left my assailants stunned, you might say. They reacted strangely. Those big bad goons cried like babies and ran away, accusing me of all sorts of nefarious things to justify their whoopin'. After all, how could one wimpy, subdued little old me take out all those big, bad tough guys?

Anyhow, word got around, and I didn't have to do that so much any more. And the bullying stopped, replaced either by fear or respect, I cared not which. The main thing to me was that my life suddenly got a lot more peaceful.

A couple of years later, we moved back to the mountains, where I finished growing up. I learned to hunt, I learned to fish, and I learned that the way I fought must be genetic or something, because that's the way they do it there. My first fight there was against an individual known to be the biggest, baddest, toughest guy around. He later said I "won", but I'd call it a draw. We both got broken noses out of it, then sat and bled a while. I got my point across, though, that I just WOULDN'T be bullied, and I suppose that could be considered a "win". Didn't have to do that very much there either, after that. It was a good long while before anyone tried me out again. Incidentally, that tough guy and I became the best of friends shortly after that. Last I heard, he was in prison. I took a different path.

Anyhow, the long and the short of it is that I absolutely WILL not, absolutely CAN not, sit by and watch folks rake less fortunate people over the coals. When I see that going on, somebody has a bad day coming. I can put myself in their place, and can't abide it. It's like that first rage flies all over me again.

Anyone who's read Schroedinger's thread about what happened in DC the other day knows that he's the same. He just has a lot better control of himself in such situations than I do. I'm afraid I probably would have gone to jail, and the situation wouldn't have really been much improved.

Less of a man? Nope. Schroedinger is a HELL of a man.

Back to the topic at hand. Even in the heat of battle, to this day, I can feel that "tug". Probably the only reason a few folks have for still walking the earth. The "tug" doesn't stop me, but it makes me think. Sometimes I have to think really FAST, though.

That's the way it goes for people. Back when I was hunting (I haven't hunted in over 20 years now - no need or opportunity really) I felt the same "tug". I had to have a damn good reason to shoot something. It was either to eat, or to keep it from eating ME. There ain't NO sport in shooting an animal that can't shoot back. SPORT would be along the lines of knife-fighting a bear, or running down a deer. Giving it an even chance. Anything less is just chest-pounding, in my book.

But I DID hunt, and I did it to eat. The area was what you would call "economically depressed", and there was a lot of poaching going on. I have no trouble with a man that will poach to feed his family, but trophy hunters just fly all over me. See above, about knife-fighting a bear. THAT would be a trophy (Wade Hampton, CSA, used to knife fight bears, and I personally knew a couple of indian brothers that did the same. Bigger cojones than me.) What I particularly found frustrating was those mighty Nimrods who would shoot a critter, then let it run off to bleed to death, and never retrieve it, not having the skills to track it down and finish it. They had NO place in "my" woods. More than once, I've found a carcass in the woods that had just been LEFT there, and tracked it back to the shoot site, then tracked the hunters back to their "camp", or wherever they were, just to prove that it could be done, and inform them if they couldn't do it, they needed to be out of my woods. They had no business there. I've spoken to those mighty Nimrods from right at their shoulder, and watched them jump nearly out of their skin 'cause they didn't know I was there. It made an impression, and got my point across.

Just hanging a head on a wall ain't NO reason to kill. But there are those times when it's a necessity.

All life may be sacred, but not equally so. There are folks, and critters, in this world that don't give a rat's behind who they hurt, or why. Yes Virginia, there really ARE monsters. Their lives are in no wise equal to mine, or to those I love, or even to a stranger who can't fend for themselves against them.

I've been places, and seen things, and DONE things that still wake me up at night. I'm NOT a nice person, and no amount of sugar-coating will change that. What I can say is that I have a conscience, and a code. And I still have that "tug" from long ago, it just guides me, rather than stopping me cold. Folks like me are still needed, I reckon, precisely BECAUSE of those monsters I mentioned above.

It may be genetic. I don't know. I can say that several years ago, my wife bought my son and his brother a bb gun. I was "away" at work, and couldn't properly instruct them in it's use, or the potential finality of it's use. So my son goes out with that bb gun, and thinking it was like a video game, shot a songbird with it. When he realized the bird was PERMANENTLY dead, the boy cried for 3 days straight, and hasn't shot anything but targets since. He's 14 now, and for some odd reason has gone into USMC jr ROTC, but he still has that "tug". All I can really hope for is that he learns to USE it, rather than letting it use him, before they send him out to die.

It may be the only thing that keeps him alive, and keeps him HUMAN, because the death of one's humanity, while one still walks the earth, is a death like no other.

My hat is off to Shroedinger's Dog, because of the way he handled the DC thing. I don't know him, and don't always agree with him, but I've had a little glimpse of his heart, and can only WISH I was that much of a man.

nenothtu out.

reply to post by schrodingers dog


Congratz you are a paladin! I understand where you are coming from since I was a little boy (4-5 years old) I felt guilt seeing harm done to animals and eating meat, so much that when I was 9 I decided to become vegetarian and that was 13 years ago.

When I was a teenager I was picked on alot and got into fights because of it, every fight would send me into an anxiety attack. Unlike you I do not see the worth in all individual humans, I can't stand watching PETA videos but faces of death videos about people do not bother me.

I believe in karma, people get what is coming to them. Animals are innocent. As I have grown and matured I try more and more to avoid any situations where there could possibly be violence.

Not wanting to cause harm to someone or something that does not deserve it is nothing to be ashamed about.

Stars for you!

Originally posted by Henduluin
... or felt like they were hitting a giant fluffy pillow even though I was putting all of my strength and weight into them. Something was holding me back and it wasn't the bystanders. It really was the strangest feeling I've ever had and one of the very few events I remember from when I was that age.

EXACTLY! That's my experience. Once you've crossed some invisible line, it's like all the strength you had just a second ago is gone, drained, just not THERE any more. It makes further combativeness futile.

Originally posted by schrodingers dog
So I was having a nice conversation with a fellow ATS member over the U2U, we were talking about our mutual inability to harm living things, and I remembered something from my childhood that I had forgotten. I found it ratherr interesting, psychologically anyway, and thought I would share it in case someone had ever felt something similar or were familiar with it.

So here it goes:

The only things I kill are mosquitoes when they are near me and that's only cause I'm allergic. And when it happens I literally almost cry about it. Something about karma, the universe, and living things just affects me this way. Though I hate any type of insect I will always go out of my way to do everything to get them out of the house without harming them. The idea of harming life is incredibly upsetting for me.

Same thing with the news, that's why I don't watch it but instead read about it on the web. I can also never watch horror films or anything gory without high risk of intense nightmares. Btw, I get really furious and upset when someone threads something horrible on ATS without a disclaimer and I inadvertently see pictures. That also triggers many nightmarish nights. I remember when I was around seven, I was watching the news, and there was footage of a massive fire in a Brazilian hotel. And they showed a picture of someone jumping out the window to their death … to this day (and 9/11 footage didn't help) I have nightmares of that vision. Without judging anyone I literally am another species from those who can watch things like "faces of death," nothing in my being relates to that existence.

I know I know I'm a little girl.

The fear of witnessing death all stems from your own personal fear of death. The sooner you accept the fact that everything around you will die the happier your days will be.

Originally posted by doctorvannostren

The fear of witnessing death all stems from your own personal fear of death.

I'm willing to consider all possibilities, but in all honesty it is highly unlikely.

None of this really related to death, it's got a lot more to do with my own actions and how they affect the universe and others. Plus ... I honestly don't fear death, for fearing something that is a conceptual mind made construct is rather silly. The very word "death" describes something that is indescribable and points to a state of unknown nature. To me it would be like fearing a plooplie. Furthermore I don't consider death the opposite of life ... the accurate opposite of death is birth not life. And I have no reason to believe that life ends just because this skin has run its course.

So in this case I would say I'm pretty sure that's not it ... not 100% sure, but pretty sure.


[edit on 3 Oct 2009 by schrodingers dog]

Originally posted by seasoul

I'm a pacifist, this is my true nature. I have no respect for humanity’s violent ways.

On a rainy day, if you see someone picking up snails on the sidewalk and looking for a safe place to shelter them, it will most likely be me.

Peace on Earth!

[edit on 3-10-2009 by seasoul]

And, if you see some guy on a rainy day picking worms off the road and sidewalk and tossing them into the grass, well, that may be me.

When I see misery that I can prevent, I think of me in those shoes, even though you won't see shoes on worms

I also try to help life while trying to do no harm. Here is a story y'all might like: I was at this party when I was in high school, and I went to this guy to tell him I had no bad feelings towards him (the issue was of a girl); so he had more than a few beers while also being very obnoxious started to take off his shirt to fight me. He came to swing at me (this all occurred very fast); it seemed as if someone had pushed me precisely at the correct position out of the way to the left of him ever so slightly (it was like a defense mechanism, without even thinking)as he tried to give me a right hook punch to the face. He ended up following his fist, going through the motion all the way falling to the ground on the concrete pavement in front of a house on that night in the country at a party. I felt really bad (mainly because the girl was going to know) He later came to shake my hand saying no hard feelings, he knew he was drunk, knew I was upset; It all went okay after that.

reply to post by schrodingers dog


this is hilarious, I've experienced this inability.

and then I grew old enough to start drinking

reply to post by schrodingers dog


have you ever heard of the Jains??

Jainism (pronounced /ˈdʒaɪnɪzəm/, also called 'Jain Dharma') is an ancient dharmic religion from India that prescribes a path of non-violence for all forms of living beings in this world. Its philosophy and practice relies mainly on self effort in progressing the soul on the spiritual ladder to divine consciousness. Any soul which has conquered its own inner enemies and achieved the state of supreme being is called jina (Conqueror or Victor). Jainism is the path to achieve this state.

...

Jainism regards every living soul as potentially divine. When the soul sheds its karmic bonds completely, it attains divine consciousness. It prescribes a path of non-violence to progress the soul to this ultimate goal.

...

Jainism encourages spiritual development through reliance on and cultivation of one's own personal wisdom and self-control (व्रत, vrata). The goal of Jainism is to realize the soul's true nature. "Samyak darshan gyan charitrani moksha margah", meaning "true/right perception, knowledge and conduct" ( known as the triple gems of Jainism) provides the path for attaining liberation (moksha) from samsara (the universal cycle of birth and death). Moksha is attained by liberation from all karma.

...

Jains hold that the Universe and Dharma are eternal, without beginning or end. However, the universe undergoes processes of cyclical change. The universe consists of living beings ("Jīva") and non-living beings ("Ajīva"). The samsarin (worldly) soul incarnates in various life forms during its journey over time. Human, sub-human (animal, insect, plant, etc.), super-human (deity or devas), and hell-being are the four macro forms of the samsari souls. All worldly relations of one's Jiva with other Jiva and Ajiva (non-living beings) are based on the accumulation of karma and its conscious thoughts, speech and actions carried out in its current form.

...

There are five basic ethical principles (vows) prescribed. The degree to which these principles must be practiced is different for renunciant and householder. Thus:
* Non-violence (Ahimsa) - to cause no harm to living beings.
* Truth (Satya) - to always speak the truth in a harmless manner.
* Non-stealing (Asteya) - to not take anything that is not willingly given.
* Celibacy (Brahmacarya) - to not indulge in sensual pleasures.
* Non-possession (Aparigraha) - to detach from people, places, and material things.

himsa, "Non-violence", is sometimes interpreted as not killing, but the concept goes far beyond that. It includes not harming or insulting other living beings, either directly, or indirectly through others. There can be even no room for thought to injure others, and no speech that influences others to inflict harm. It also includes respecting the views of others (non-absolutism and acceptance of multiple views)...

- Every living being has a soul.
- Every soul is potentially divine, with innate qualities of infinite knowledge, perception, power, and bliss (masked by its karmas).
- Therefore, regard every living being as yourself, harming no one and be kind to all living beings.
- Every soul is born as a celestial, human, sub-human or hellish being according to its own karmas.
- Every soul is the architect of its own life, here or hereafter.

...

According to Jain beliefs, the universe was never created, nor will it ever cease to exist. Therefore, it is shaswat (infinite). It has no beginning or end, but time is cyclical with progressive and regressive spirituality phases.

...

During the Utsarpini half cycle, humanity develops from its worst to its best: ethics, progress, happiness, strength, health, and religion each start the cycle at their worst, before eventually completing the cycle at their best and starting the process again. During the Avsarpini half-cycle, these notions deteriorate from the best to the worst. Jains believe we are currently in the fifth Ara of the Avsarpini phase, with approximately 19,000 years until the next Ara. After this Ara we will enter the sixth phase, which will last for approximately 21,000 years. After this, the Utsarpini phase will begin, continuing the infinite repetition of the belief that at the upswing of each time cycle, people will lose religion again.

en.wikipedia.org...

i've researched this group before, and most of the more experienced members don't wear clothes at all, they're incredibly pure vegans and are very picky with what they eat, they only walk and they won't drive anything, because they can control themselves from stepping on insects or any other animal with each step they take, whereas driving cars/bikes they might run over a living creature. i suggest you read up about them if you've never heard from them - i admire them entirely!





"Jain - Sacred Geometry & Vedic Mathematics"


Dennis Kucinich and the Jains!


also, Jains have the COOLEST temples!!

I've never been violent really and I can't stand to watch anything die, I don't even like fishing ;P I always set them free when my family goes o.o But yeah, there was always an invisible force guiding me through life ;P NICE THREAD ;D And I can't watch anything violent either ;P It makes me hate society even more.

I am both a moose-murderer & a fish killer!

Usually I hunt moose once every year for meat and to save some money!

Do I enjoy the killing? NO! - actually! I feel quite bad about it, and it get worse for every year, so this October I'm not going hunting for the first time in many years.

I still like fishing though, but only take what I can eat and release the rest!

But I still think I would hunt in a SHTF situation for meat, with less thoughts about it!

Am I bad?


[edit on 3-10-2009 by Chevalerous]

reply to post by Chevalerous


There really isn't such a thing as good and bad, all we have are our mirrors/conscience, and late at night, sooner or later, we have to face both.

For what it is worth, even though I couldn't do it, I see nothing "wrong" with killing for sustenance ... but that's just me and it really shouldn't mean anything to anyone else.

Ah, your in good company here Schrodingers Dog! I too feel that life is so precious and that it should never be taken for granted. I also never kill anything unless it is directly attacking me. Coming from a cool climate I don't get much trouble from mosquitoes but when I venture over to continental Europe I can sense a Mosquito coming at me a mile off and I immediately go into defence mode lol!

The invisible force is felt by me too, its difficult to put into words as I don't feel the words yet exist that would give an exact description but I will try my best! The feeling is a all knowing connection between what I feel on a conscious level as well as the sub-conscious. Its a warm feeling of being connected to this world and everything that goes on within it, naturally as I feel such a connection I wish to seek out the positive aspects of the world and shy away from the negative – the way 911 felt to me as I was watching on TV was like my soul had been shocked to the core. Who ever was involved in that, they obviously were people who could not have the level of comprehension of what damage they caused to the worlds consciousness, it was like they created a black hole of negativity that darned day.

Fear not, for the membership of ATS has many good natured positive thinking people with a conscious understanding of life, people just like you!

[edit on 4-10-2009 by freeradical]

There is no invisible force. We are taught physical violence is wrong. Hell, I feel bad when I kill a bug. Why? Because what if I were that bug. Living life and then get stepped on.

It's not just some force, it's just putting myself in the shoes of a bug.

Also, I will hit someone if they attack me...sometimes. Once I got beat up by some dude but what did I do? I walked away. Why? Because it wasn't worth it. I don't need to say there was some "force." It was being smart and letting that big guy look like a douche.

It's all about instinct. Not "invisible force." Although it does sound nice and neat.

I would be careful tying any type of divine influence into an extreme perspective.

More so, because the other side of this spectrum does the same. Serial killers, psychopaths, etc are very fond of the "invisible force".

Some people can't hit the bully in the face, and others can't stop.

Truth lies in balance,

Deinonychus

[edit on 3-10-2009 by deinonychus]

Being in a fight with a fellow human being and not acting on it can sometimes be fatal. It may not be the intention of the person comming the assualt, but it does not take much force to turn a regular blow into a fatal one. Personally I believe you must react in a fight no matter what, just walking away won't do anything, but that doesn't mean swing back. You actually have many options in a fight, most of all stay vocal, and maybe take some martial arts so you can learn how to block blows efficiently. Also in a fight you should end it by putting the assailant (sp?) into a compliance hold, something that if he resists it will bring pain upon himself, but won't hurt if he just does as he's told. After you have control of you assailant get the authoritys, no matter how little the individual connected or anything, the person is more than likely pissed off at you because what had just taken place will surely be very embarassing.

See a non-violent reaction to a fight that doesn't have you just walking away q

I hear you man!
That # happened to me also and i remember it was sooo frustrating.
i was on a fight and when my fist was near the opponents face my energy was gone and i couldn't hit him.
the good thing about it...i only fought twice and that was 22 years ago when i was 15

Great thread with some fascinating posts.

Nowadays I try not to kill anything at all, but if I inadvertently step on a snail or whatever, I don't feel bad for too long about it.
After telling myself I'm a clumsy ass, I see it as a fate thing that I was chosen by fate or whatever, to release that creature from this incarnation.

I know some people will think I'm a bit soft and stupid for this, but I once rescued a rat from three cats near my house, as I couldn't bear to see it being tortured to death.
I got it into a large jar, and put it into a carrier bag so no one would see what I was doing, then took it to a bit of woodland away from the houses in my area.
I had thought of letting the cats kill it as we all know rats are vermin and carry disease and what not.
Anyway, I opened the jar near the ground, and after a bit of gentle shaking, managed to get it out onto the grass where it crouched quivering with understandable fear.
I then assured it that I was not going to hurt it and it was free to go, and told it to stay away from humans.
Then it jumped up and down on the spot sqeaking with apparent joy, ran over my foot and into a pile of dead leaves.
I just sat and bawled my eyes out for even considering letting the cats kill it.
Flame me all you want for this, but I don't regret it at all, after all, they don't know they're a danger to humans, and they are a life form which has a right to live like any other in my opinion.
That doesn't mean to say I wouldn't deal with an infestation with extreme predjudice, but this wasn't one.

I also have the good fortune to share my life with a 'humanitarian' cat who jumped out of the window, and shortly afterwards came back with what looked like a ball of fluff in her mouth, which she dropped at my feet.
After a moment of apprehension, I examined the object to find that it was a Robin chick, which she had rescued from the cat next door.
We called the RSPCA who took it to be released in the wild when it was old enough.
I've had so many similar experiences with animals, that it would end up being a book by the time I'd finished.

I'm not saying I've never been cruel to animals in the past, but I've grown up a bit now.

I was bullied quite a lot when younger for being a wierdo, and had some strange aversion to fighting back, fearing that if I did, I would just annoy my assailant even more, and make them hurt me worse.
I was scared to death of violence, to the point of cowardice (Whatever that means).
I always thought everyone else was tougher than me. (Otherwise they wouldn't have started on me in the first place!!!!)
This resulted in my being haunted by self hatred, and I just ended up beating myself up about it, especially before going to sleep, and I still have the occasional dream about being totally ineffectual in a fight situation (As in previous posts).

Then I started learning a martial art, and although I never got to be that good at it, the fear seemed to become more balanced, and the one time since where I had to hit someone, was when a guy started being abusive to my girfriend's parents.
I put up with it for far too long, but when I did hit him (Intended to be a gentle tap to divert his attention to me instead of them), he spun round, and fell to the floor unconscious.
Although it was a very unpleasant thing to have to do, it helped me to realise that I'm not totally powerless and boosted my self esteem enough for me to have a bit more self confidence in a confrontation.
Once he was down I got a bit scared, thinking I had killed him, but when he came round, he apologised for being out of order, and said it was a hell of a punch I had given him.
Much as I hate doing that sort of thing, if I felt my, or any other innocent's life was in danger, I'd definitely waste the assailant, especially with the amount of hoodie knife wielding buttheads around nowadays who just go around hurting people for 'fun'.

Anyway, I'm done for now.

I also try my best not to kill bugs.

A warning, don't go out for a walk on a damp/wet night, all I hear when I walk around my area is "crunch" "crunch"....... "crunch!" the sound of Snails getting crushed, they are all over the place, almost impossible to avoid, I try my best thou haha.

[edit on 3-10-2009 by _Phoenix_]

Yes, I feel this force, more so a connection, to all life forms, and an appreciation that the same spark of life that exists within me is the exact same spark of life that animates them. My feeling on some level is that this force gave animation to all of these things, and that everything, no matter how small or seemingly unaware or intelligent, has a spirit. Of course that many just be my native american heritage speaking out through my DNA or something.

But yeah, I just "know" on some level not to trivialize any life form. All, in one form or another has a purpose of some sort IMHO, and I see my own lifeforce as not being superior or inferior, but one in the same with all other forms of life. Just my own subjective perspective though, no aspersions cast upon anyone else's viewpoints.