Has anyone ever thought?

There are two sides to every coin, there’s yin and yang. Light cannot exist without darkness just as hot cannot survive without cold. These are fundamental scientific principals, yet they relate to religion.

We have good and we have evil, one cannot exist without the other. I'm not particularly religious even though I believe there’s more to this world than what it seems.

This is going to upset the Christians but imagine if you were unwittingly carrying out Satan's wishes? How do you know the holy book is that holy?

They say the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he wasn't alive...

How exactly do you benchmark something thats wrote in a book?

What is right and what is wrong? Does anyone actually know?

My friend, you have presented a question about one of the fundamentals of ancient wisdom...

...not only do they "relate" to religion they are the foundation of ALL religious doctrine.

I recommend doing some research on a science called Qabala and let me go ahead and post a video that kinda sums up the "essence" of this ancient wisdom.





[edit on 3-6-2009 by GrnEydGuy]

[edit on 3-6-2009 by GrnEydGuy]

reply to post by Death_Kron

They say the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he wasn't alive...

The vast majority of Christians believe that Satan exists.

What is right and what is wrong? Does anyone actually know?

Wrong is anything that goes against what God desires or wants us to do. We discover what God wants through the Bible.

This is going to upset the Christians but imagine if you were unwittingly carrying out Satan's wishes? How do you know the holy book is that holy?

I've thought this before. I reached the conclusion that Christianity isn't Satanic essentially through studying the scriptures and prayer. By studying the scriptures, I saw that there were prophecies that were fulfilled. Only God knows the future and even if Satan tried, God would thwart it. That all the books of the Bible mesh together helped too.

reply to post by octotom


I like your answers, but let me pose a more serious question?

How do you know that Lucifer hasn't wrote the book you read from?

Isn't it possible that you are being deceived? The point I'm trying to make is that you just wouldn't know!

There's good and bad, but subjectivity comes into play.

Something that someone may find wrong, another would find right...

That's the work of the devil (if he exist's)

For any Christian who has blind faith in God (without any proof) show me a Christian who has the same level of belief in the Devil...

Easier thought, correct me if my bible class knowledge isn't up to scratch;

Lucifer was a fallen angel banished from heaven by God due to his want to be ever more powerful and become the leader, he was jealous and wanted to take God's position - for this God sent him and created Hell?

So tell me how this fallen angel became so powerful?

An angel compared to God is nothing....

To be honest I was raised a catholic and now follow no religion apart from trying to be a good, honest person that looks after his friends and family and tries to better himself. I do my best to help others however charity begins at home, I think if more people did the same and did not live their life according to dusty old books and corrupt religions then the world would not be in the mess that it is in.

To answer one of your questions I do not think that Satan wrote the bible as none of the teachings lead directly to evil, I think if anything the evil is mans creation, we are a destructive violent species, no need to bring the devil into it

This is my first post! In the original "Old Testament" Hebrew, the "devil" is called Hasatan, which means "the adversary." This word is used to describe any being or obstacle that stands in the way of a righteous person trying to do the right thing. It also describes anything, people included, that tempts a person to sin. This word is found throughout the bible and names everything from people, angles and demons, to worldly possessions and even animals, therefore "Satan" is not an individual being serving as the direct opposite of "God," but is every being, thought, or action that acts against the nature of "God." People often are confused by the book of Job where Satan sits at the council of God in heaven and discusses the life of Job. They wonder how this could be since he was supposed to have been kicked out of Heaven long ago. It's because this isn't a single dude. Whoever was sitting with "God" that day was acting as "the satan" or "the adversary." I just thought I'd throw that in since you were asking about the whole good and evil thing. It gives you something to think about. I used to be a Christian until I took some Hebrew classes along with a bunch of religion and philosophy courses and studied hardcore for a couple of years. The more I learned, the more I realized that the Judaic and Christian religions are exactly like any other ancient religion and I don't believe any the theology.

Originally posted by On the level
To be honest I was raised a catholic and now follow no religion apart from trying to be a good, honest person that looks after his friends and family and tries to better himself. I do my best to help others however charity begins at home, I think if more people did the same and did not live their life according to dusty old books and corrupt religions then the world would not be in the mess that it is in.

To answer one of your questions I do not think that Satan wrote the bible as none of the teachings lead directly to evil, I think if anything the evil is mans creation, we are a destructive violent species, no need to bring the devil into it

Great answer and I'm glad your living a peaceful and happy life, one point to make though; evil is man's creation - well God created man so ..... ?

Originally posted by brackforce
This is my first post! In the original "Old Testament" Hebrew, the "devil" is called Hasatan, which means "the adversary." This word is used to describe any being or obstacle that stands in the way of a righteous person trying to do the right thing. It also describes anything, people included, that tempts a person to sin. This word is found throughout the bible and names everything from people, angles and demons, to worldly possessions and even animals, therefore "Satan" is not an individual being serving as the direct opposite of "God," but is every being, thought, or action that acts against the nature of "God." People often are confused by the book of Job where Satan sits at the council of God in heaven and discusses the life of Job. They wonder how this could be since he was supposed to have been kicked out of Heaven long ago. It's because this isn't a single dude. Whoever was sitting with "God" that day was acting as "the satan" or "the adversary." I just thought I'd throw that in since you were asking about the whole good and evil thing. It gives you something to think about. I used to be a Christian until I took some Hebrew classes along with a bunch of religion and philosophy courses and studied hardcore for a couple of years. The more I learned, the more I realized that the Judaic and Christian religions are exactly like any other ancient religion and I don't believe any the theology.

First of all welcome to ATS! and thanks for posting!

I hope you enjoy some classical debates on here, which I'm sure you will.

As you said the word devil is used to describe anyone not doing (basically) what God says is right, well turn the situation around though?

Imagine a "Devil's Bible" that said it was right to hurt and upset people and anyone being nice was committing a "sin" and would be punished?

It could all be so easily turned around in my oppinion...

Although I do believe in good and evil.

reply to post by Death_Kron



Or really man created god to meet his own ends, not to say that I do not believe that there is not a force in the universe however there is no evidence to back up anything written in the bible or the koran, it is always that god revealed himself to one person that what became of that is a lot of control mechanisims and a couple of massive religions that make a fortune off of the elderly and desperate

reply to post by On the level


I've always stated that I believe religion to be a method of control and nothing more than a comfort blanket to those in need. If you can convince someone some of the things the bible/koran says then you have a very powerful tool in which to control a population.


The 10 commandments, they seem to form the simplistic basis of most modern legal systems in operation today...

Like I said though, I do believe in good or evil.

reply to post by Death_Kron

Lucifer was a fallen angel banished from heaven by God due to his want to be ever more powerful and become the leader, he was jealous and wanted to take God's position - for this God sent him and created Hell?

When you look at the passage in Isaiah 14 [Or Ezekiel 28, I can't remember right now], Lucifer didn't quite want to be higher than God, but co-equal to him. Ever since he fell, Lucifer has wanted to be worshiped as God is. Yes, hell was created for Satan and the demons. I stress though that it was originally created only for them.

So tell me how this fallen angel became so powerful?

Satan is only powerful to us as humans. To God, he's just a little pip-squeak. I think though that you're referring to Satan being the ruler of this world, no? Well, he is called the ruler of this world because, once Adam fell, the Earth wasn't the paradise that it once was and by sinning, Adam was effectively putting mankind, and his domain, under the bonds of Satan's Kingdom. God allows this to go on so that people may hear the Gospel and have a choice to return to God and become a part of his kingdom.

How do you know that Lucifer hasn't wrote the book you read from?

Simply because, the things that Satan described himself of doing couldn't be attributed to God, due to the nature of God. For example, if Satan wrote the book, that would mean that, at least from how I understand it, Satan would be putting himself in the place of God and therefore, the Satan that we read about would be the real God. Since the Bible tells us of Satan's fall--it just doesn't make sense that God can fall, you know what I mean? Satan is also portrayed as a liar. This is something that goes against God's nature because God is holy and there is no sin in him.

In addition, there are prophecies that, no matter how you cut it, were predicted and came to pass in centuries later. Prophecy is not something that Satan can do, though he try. If Satan did make a prediction, God could easily not make it happen. Everything that occurs is on God's timetable, not ours and not Satan's.

For any Christian who has blind faith in God (without any proof) show me a Christian who has the same level of belief in the Devil...

I wouldn't say that many Christians have a blind faith. Many have experienced God in one way or another.

reply to post by brackforce


It's true that satan means adversary and can be anyone, but it is evident that Satan is a person as well.

Job 1.6-7a (ESV):

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD , and Satan also came among them. The LORD said to Satan...

1 Chronicles 21.1 (ESV):

The Satan stood against Israel...

Zechariah 3.1 (ESV):

Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him

Revelation 12.9-10 (ESV):

And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world...

Also, in the story of Job, Satan wasn't already sitting with God, he appeared with the sons of God as they were "checking in".

[edit on 6/3/2009 by octotom]

Originally posted by Death_Kron
There are two sides to every coin, there’s yin and yang. Light cannot exist without darkness just as hot cannot survive without cold. These are fundamental scientific principals, yet they relate to religion.

...

What is right and what is wrong? Does anyone actually know?

Consider that "God" is THE SOURCE of all. Whether you believe in the Christian God, the Muslim God, the Budhist God or NO God etc... God is the original source.

Everything that is and will be EMANATES from this ineffable ONE. Therefore you can view right as moving in the direction of and closer to this Source and wrong as anything that moves away from this Source.

Here is the basic premise of religion. I think therefor I am, If I am I must have been created, If I was created I must have been created by a culmination of forces, if forces create there must be a creator.

How do you know that Satan is evil?

Where is it written that he did evil things?

reply to post by OhZone


In the Revelation verse that I gave above it mentions that Satan is "that ancient serpent". That ancient serpent can be none other than the serpent in Eden that deceived Adam and Eve.

Then, Satan tempted Jesus to sin, just like he tempts all of us to sin. This is not a good thing. It's wrong to tempt someone to sin against God.

reply to post by Death_Kron


I know there are two sides but it doesn't have to be that way. I think it's a very narrow way of thinking that perpetuates pain and sorrow in this world.

If I inject the little of what I know with Quantum Mechanics, the unseen order that exists in all Universe, there's only left, right, up, down, forward, and back, fast and slow. Only possibilities in many different ways and directions.

Evil doesn't have to exist to have good, you only need to do things differently. Doesn't mean you have to smile all time. There will still be sad moments, some anger, or those full range of emotions. Emotions aren't evil at all. Only until you lose control of yourself and act upon that negative emotion in a negative way.

reply to post by octotom


How do you square prophecy with free will. One seems to exclude the other?

reply to post by octotom


Actually the vast majority of churches believe and preach of Satan and Hell. However there is a large growing consensus among church goers that Satan and hell does not exist. I think all but 2 people in all my extended family believe Satan is just a church fairy tale used to scare people into being good. "Because our god would never do that!" is their remarks.

I thought my family was just cooky and started asking people I work with what their views were concerning Satan and hell roughly 80% told me neither exist because "God would never do that he's good"

The earliest writings I could find dealing with Satanic writings also predict the future and it's outcomes and have also been correct. Including the world will believe Satan and hell doesn't exist because god would never do that to them.

Both Bibles are written and interpreted by man so anything in either one has to be carefully scrutinized for what is or is not truth.

However I'm not arguing those points I'm trying to show that, there is no good without evil, you can't have light without dark, there can be no life without death.

Or another way of scientifically putting it. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. I often wonder if people really realize the implications of this one statement made by science lol.

reply to post by Nichiren


God is not bound by any sort of time or space. That is what people need to understand. Therefore no matter what choice we make he knows the outcome of it regardless. Thus the prophecies.