Vancouver police shoot, kill man - Then DELETE witness video

Murdering someone who is breaking into a car is pretty bad, in my humble opinion. Apprehend him some other way, human life is precious. Killing a man for a poor choice such as breaking into a car, oh man.

Originally posted by Pockets
Shouldn't the Feds be able to retrieve that footage from the phone? Even if they deleted it surely they can retrieve deleted media from the phones memory, the other question is will they?

No, you're probably thinking of HDD disks, magnetic storage.

Most solid state memory doesn't leave behind a ghost like magnetic storage does.

The only way I can see a retrieval from the phone is if the OS on the phone doesn't actually delete the data, but rather just wipes the record of the file from the File Allocation Table.


This would ultimately be up to the manufacturer of the phone to explain.

Originally posted by billybob
highly unlikely possibilities, but it's not for people with little to no information to be the judge.

Good Point...so how is everyone else in this thread JUDGING the officer with little or NO info?????? My take on this is my personal experiance in the same situation, not just using bias or a shot in the dark.

Originally posted by rcwj75
Also to you members who apparently really arent to bright...NOONE shoots to wound...NOONE. Only a retard shoots to wound and actually believes that you can...especially those who watch WAY to much TV and think its real.

you're judging and insulting the members who don't agree with you. it is possible to shoot someone once. you don't need to shoot four or forty times.

Yes I am judging those who have never pulled the trigger on another human being, those who have never even been close to this kind of stress and elevated position...how the hell can people say stupid stuff about incidents they HAVE NEVER experianced first hand. That would be like me bashing a doctor for screwing up heart surgery...if you never experianced it, don't know what it takes, and base your assumptions and claims off of nothing more then what you see on TV or read in fiction books how can you KNOW that one round would do the job? How you can shoot to wound? etc....YOU CAN'T!

Originally posted by rcwj75
Bottom line...there is only ONE person to blame for ALL OF THIS!! The douchbag criminal who armed himself and decided to steal and threaten others....oh well..tough ----!

you're being judge dread, again.

How am I being the judge of something factual? Are you saying the article is lying and this incident DIDN'T occur?

just because you've had to shoot someone, does not mean it's always okay to shoot people.
i personally didn't even read the article, just the responses to it. i'm certainly not judging anyone. do you know the officers in question responded with appropriate force, or do you think there may be something amiss. it seems to me, if there was a video, and it was destroyed, it is not just the crime of destruction of evidence that is likely, but probably an attempted cover-up of excessive force. otherwise, why would it have been destroyed?
is it normal to handcuff someone who has been shot four times?

reply to post by rcwj75


Google Video
Police Shoot Gun Out of Mans Hand

People don't trust the police anymore. They're reputation precedes them.

Originally posted by dainoyfb
reply to post by rcwj75

 

Google Video
Police Shoot Gun Out of Mans Hand

People don't trust the police anymore. They're reputation precedes them.

Yes that was done by a sniper in ohio I believe from 75yards away. It was also an incident that lasted over 3 hours. It wasn't shot out of his hands by a beat cop using a pistol...

Originally posted by billybob
just because you've had to shoot someone, does not mean it's always okay to shoot people.
i personally didn't even read the article, just the responses to it. i'm certainly not judging anyone. do you know the officers in question responded with appropriate force, or do you think there may be something amiss. it seems to me, if there was a video, and it was destroyed, it is not just the crime of destruction of evidence that is likely, but probably an attempted cover-up of excessive force. otherwise, why would it have been destroyed?
is it normal to handcuff someone who has been shot four times?

I agree, my circumstances may be much different then this, but everyone here is judging the officers desicion, yet none of you have EVER been in their shoes...so how is that right?

I agree with you and the others, if there was a video showing what fully happened and the cops destoryed it, then by all means they must pay the piper...

as for handcuffing someone who has been shot, YES, it is...you handcuff them and when the medics arrive they give aid with the handcuffs on unless the deam it necessary that they come off. My guess is he was not dead after the round hit him, and these officers were folling SOP with the handcuffing. Someone being shot does NOT mean they are no longer a threat. You do know people have been shot and continued to fight, run, flee, drive, shoot back, etc?

My hatred for people that gets into these power positins, just turns into making me sick inside. Serial killers just join the police, the sickos, and they get away with it everytime.

My own life experience has shown that, it just takes one person with a vendetta and friends in these jobs, and you are screwed. even worse is when they get actual jobs working for them.

Another story of pure scum people killing anyone they want.

reply to post by rcwj75


Taser or pepper spray. You would think the police would be trained in tackling and subduing people without the use of lethal measures.

reply to post by rcwj75


How about call a sniper then? How about fire a warning shot? How about shoot him in the leg from ten yards? Is police weapons training that poor. How about use a taser since the police are so keen on carrying them. I saw you defending the police that murdered the man during the BART shooting in that forum as well and it strikes me that being a LEO you are biased to the point of EDP. I deal with the police on a regular basses and I see this condition consistently. It is an unfortunate byproduct of our culture.

The problem in Canada is that the police are the only ones that watch the police. In that situation abuse will be rampant. The RCMP have become little more that thugs with a blank cheque to enforce the way they see fit.

As most posters here seem to be Canadian, and that being the case, I am fairly certain that most have never fired a pistol or knows how hard accuracy is attained with a pistol, they need to understand exactly what they are trying to convey.

They are saying that those officers should have used better judgement and shot to wound a suspect. That usualy means to shoot towards the outer perimiter of the body. To do that isn't very safe or is it feesable. Should you miss, would you be willing to take the chance that the projectile enter a home and hit a child or other adult peacefully sitting in his or her home?

They are asking how dangerous is it to face a knife wielding suspect and how dangerous is it actualy? Let me enlighten you. If you are a martial artist and have trained for it you understand what I'm saying! A suspect standing 7-10 yards from you can be on top of you with that knife firmly embeded in your chest in less than a second from that distance. He can slash your throat or impale your heart. Its more dangerous that a pistol round and does more damage. If you don't believe me, talk to your local emergency Doc and he probably has seen knife wounds!

How this shooting pans out is up to the investigators and the actions of the officers will be judged by others than those here. We can only speculate and our prejudices in either direction only stand to only effect our individual psychi. It will do nothing to understand what happened!

Zindo

Actually us Canadians are very into guns and there is very few of us who have not shot, (that is, when we are not busy dog sledding or building our igloos). We just have a fraction of the murders of the USA so you don't hear about us using guns much. Now if you will excuse me I have to fix my harpoon so I'll have some whale fat to keep the generator going for the laptop.

reply to post by dainoyfb


Ya, got me there. Do you guys have a NHA ( National Harpoon Association)??? I guess I did paint all Canadians with the same brush and that was wrong. I do however stand by my post on the other points. Sorry to all my Canadian shooting buddies in SASS and Bench rest.
ZIndo

Graceful apology accepted.
Based on what is now dozens of bad experiences with law enforcement officers I tend to group them all together though I'm sure there must be the odd good one out there...somewhere.

reply to post by ZindoDoone


Hey, your right, here in Canada there is a shoot to kill policy, NEVER shoot to wound.

What the guy is trying to show though is that they willfully destroyed evidence and thats really important and additionally very plausible as the video the tasering of the polish immigrant at YVR is REALLY messing up the inquiry into that, as all cops involved have a contradicting story to what the video actually shows and it makes them look really bad. So the fact they would want to delete possibly damaging evidence is very probable.

Furthermore, the witness was also trying to enforce the idea that this was excessive force for a situation that was not out of control, and the lives of the officer were NOT in danger. Plenty of time for non lethal methods to be used i.e. taser or pepper spray.

Yesterday on the news the witness who claimed to have had his video deleted was giving his phone to a company that specializes in data retrieval. At the time of the press conference, the company said that unless that space had since been over written it was highly likely that the video WOULD be retrieved, although by the time they ran the story they had not had success with it.


You guys can argue all day long about the morals of the dead man, and what he was upto before this happened but it is totally irrelevant. This is a case of excessive force and evidence tampering, and that's whats key. Also, to clarify, the police were responding to a car breakin and came across this man as a potential suspect, they weren't sure it was him. It wasn't until he appeared to be brandishing a box cutter that the situation escalated. For those who stand on the side of the police, I hope that you are never on the wrong end of the laws gun by mistake.

How sad.

Vancouver seems to be becoming the next Cleveland ...

reply to post by rcwj75


I for one don't believe this homeless man is a d**bag as you claim and he hasn't been found guilty of any crime. I'm sure that this officer if she went through proper training would have learned to take a person down without the use of DEADLY force and even if the person was carrying a weapon. I was trained in prison assistance in the military and you are only allowed needed force and you can't exceed. Although that has obviously changed in the last few years to say that the taser and pistol can be pulled for someone that may swear or use abusive language to a police officer. This person was not guilty of any crime..

Place your mother or father in this situation and not knowing the circumstances of why the police shot. Then try to justify the fact that she didn't take out her baton and just strike the mans hand and maybe break it instead of shooting him.

If she couldn't take care of a man wielding a knife without shooting her skills in communications are very lacking and I wouldn't want her to be one of the police that are assigned to police the middle grades in school.

It seems to me they need to get rid of the weapons in the police's hands. Far more people are being unnecessarily shot and tasered in the general public and for no reason than the police stats justifying the need for these weapons. And remember that not one of these people that have been shot or tasered have been guilty.... The police are not the judicial system and never have been. They are trying to make this true... Your acceptance and acknowledgment that this is true will make it possible for these rules to be accepted and phased in without little cause for concern.

I'd love to have one of those that say this happens to criminals only, for them to be stopped by the cops for a tail light and for them to have something happened where the cop tasered them. In their eyes they are automatically criminal... Maybe that would change their minds???

Somehow I doubt it though... Seems to be a growing trend here...

Rgds

**ADDED** I must add that one young lad in Hamilton was tasered by a bus police(NOT real police) for not paying his two dollar fare... This criminal could have been killed like other teens and adults by the taser and had his life played with over a two dollar fare. Thinking that you have the right to put someones life in jeopardy for a two dollar fare is the height of ridiculousness. Next thing you'll say is that if someone mistakenly walks away from a store without paying or makes the Walmart alarm go off because they failed to take off the tag will make them a criminal and that will give the Walmart or Mall security the right to shoot you and then ask questions later.

I don't know about you but that sounds like a scary society to live in and your reality is sounding more and more like a video game...


[edit on 25-3-2009 by AllTiedTogether]

Originally posted by dainoyfb
How about call a sniper then? How about fire a warning shot? How about shoot him in the leg from ten yards? Is police weapons training that poor.

When there is a normal call to the police there is no time to call a sniper. A sniper cannot be called to every situation (the payroll is not there to keep the number on hand 24/7).

Even a shot in the leg can be lethal in seconds. Ever heard of the Femoral artery? www.medterms.com... Bullets can fragment and even a small fragment from a bullet in the leg can kill a person. Here is even a nice article about such a gunshot wound to the femoral artery www.revolutionhealth.com...
You can get the same result from a gunshot wound to the arm. Any gunshot wound to the torso can be deadly. Police (patrol) are not trained to shoot to wound you shoot to stop the threat at hand (the only true way to end a threat is to end the threat).

I also want to mention the warning shot thing. Where exactly do you presume to say one should shoot a warning shot? Shooting in the air can cause the death of an innocent person as what goes up must come down. Bullets falling from the air can be very dangerous. www.iansa.org...
www.smh.com.au...
www.tvsquad.com... scroll down a bit to read the bullet part here.
And again just in case you missed it. mythbustersresults.com...
Anyone who has ever seriously used a gun knows better than to shoot a bullet into the air as it must fall back down causing possible injury or death. Shot guns on the other hand are a bit different but still could cause injury to softer tissues (eyes?).
As for police weapons training……well I certainly believe their training is better than the average persons “training”. By average I mean most of the posters and armchair warriors on ATS. Of course we do have our share of gun enthusiasts around here at ATS that could possibly out shoot an officer. But one also needs to look at the situation at hand as well in which case many of those ATS shooters would fall to the sidelines as well.


As for the story at hand with multiple witnesses saying the guy had a knife/box gutter in his hand he should have dropped it. I do not know the whole story as to what took place so I cannot make a full judgment on the situation. If by chance there is or was a video something should be done to the officers responsible for any wrong doing. If protocol was followed according to the department well the guy should have not been breaking in to cars to begin with.

Oh and you can buy (or steal if that is your thing) some minimal cost box cutters that hold a razor blade that will only retract if your finger allows it to. Some others have locking tabs that keep the blade out. Both described are made of metal and very easily accessible at any hardware store. This is more for those who think a box cutter is nothing to worry about.

Raist

A box cutter with a fresh, unused, blade is nearly as sharp as a scalpal and just as deadly. Any one who thinks it's easy to disarm anyone, even a child, with a bladed weapon is very ignorant of the tactics and the speed with which a person can use such a weapon.

Zindo

I guess the question that needs to be asked is 'Is this excessive'?

Is it right to kill someone that is performing an illegal act that is not dangerous to the public? I for one don't believe that fact that the man had a knife... I think the officers probably planted it on the man after the shooting. Not like it hasn't been done before with the planting of drugs and pistol after shooting an old elderly women. This story is also available on ATS...

Just like my example above where they tasered a kid for a two dollar fare... This taser is a deadly device just like the pistol. A Canadian study has shown that these things do not release a regulated voltage or current and that they sometimes malfunction letting off as much as twice the voltage.

They seem to be directed to not take any chances with anyone. They even have school children being tasered here. Now this six year old child had a piece of glass apparently, but the police instead of using common sense tased the child. I remember a day when police were able to use their batons and also able fight and were taught martial arts etc. Now they don't need that because they have a taser and a gun. They can now use the taser on a child or a pregnant women, sending no less than 50,000 volts into them. That's if it's a properly functioning taser and not malfunctioning. They took the chance of killing this six year old so he wouldn't take the chance of killing himself....

My question is why a police officer no longer requires to be trained in dealing with the public via communications. They are no longer trained in talking a man down from his high perch but is there to say jump you sorry bugger and then I'll deal with you after the splat. This is obvious on the news with the BART shooting as well as other incidences that keep obscuring any good the police do.

I know police are scared and fear the bad out there but to take it out on the average citizen is just not warranted. These two police officers are wearing bullet proof vests and hopefully had a baton that could have been used. I for one went through training on how to use the baton in hand to hand confrontations. I'm sure the police do also. Of course they maybe got rid of the baton so they had room for the taser and this would also be an excuse to say that the next line of defense is the gun or taser.

The most amazing thing I find about some of the comments here is that some people automatically classify someone that is stopped or questioned by a police officer as a criminal or a no good hoodlum. This I find extremely disturbing because we have children and pregnant women being tased for no reason. Then you have the teen who was tased 19 times...here.. He had fallen off of an overpass so he was bleeding.. The PO was worried he may get blood on him so he's justified? Just a little excessive... I think this PO enjoyed the thrill of the new toy he had. what else would explain it?

Equal force is what I learned ...

They should remove these weapons from the police officers. Compared to the general population that has killed by police, how many are killed by someone that is committing a crime? Any number of police officers that are killed in the line of duty is bad, but that doesn't give them the right to shoot and kill a six year old or a pregnant women or a grandmother that are all easily disarmed with a little thought and talk instead of deadly weapons.

Just another sign of how times are changing and how we will all be subject to the cattle prod should you step out of the bread line.

Not the kind of police officer I'd respect...

IMHO of course


[edit on 25-3-2009 by AllTiedTogether]