Proving God to be fake... In under ten seconds...

I'm open to that... but I'd need evidence...

I don't "do" leaps of faith





Try this. I'm not saying do this but if you are open to something maybe this is something you will be open to as well. Set aside some time and tell God that you want to know the truth of His existence. Not for personal gain or to acquire some hidden knowlege but just to know who He is. Tell Him you want to have a relationship but in these times you need to see hard proof of His existence. Blind faith is not your thing. If you ask Him for the truth He will show it to you. I am not saying to tempt the Lord but I am trying to say for you to tell Him how you feel. Honestly.

Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

You will be in for an eye opener in more ways than one.

Text RedTextreply to post by Gregor100

Always the same questions. Well being the author of all he is both. He lets us be in control of our own lives until it directly interfere with His Holy plan. It doesn't really matter if you believe or not He is real. The one thing everyone should realize is that we try to put human standards on a being(GOD) that is infalable. Humans wrote the bible with an intelect for below Gods. A capacity less than the divinity of God. You believe there are aliens out there with an intelect far supurior to ours but don't believe in a God who is the Father of all creation...... A father who wants His children to be independent but not to the extent to where they cause harm to themselves. Like fathers do hear on earth. Why do we call the most moral countries civilized if we do not believe in biblical values. God is real and if you don't believe it look at the trees. Their purpose is many different things. Evolution would have made them like umbrellas but then where would the birds rest. I hope I have not offended you but I wanted to offer this to you in a way that doesn't judge or persecute anyone.Well God bless and may peace and happiness find all you.

reply to post by jackflap


This is not a falsifiable hypothesis to work with here...

we need a falsifiable hypothesis to conduct experiments to determine that hypothesis to be valid or invalid...

Originally posted by nj2day
reply to post by jackflap

 

This is not a falsifiable hypothesis to work with here...

we need a falsifiable hypothesis to conduct experiments to determine that hypothesis to be valid or invalid...

I'm not making a hypothesis really. Just trying to show you a way to get an answer to the question. We have His word wether you believe in it or not. Take the above passage and run with it. I believe that if you are sincere in seeking the truth He will make Himself known to you in a way that is indisputable. He wouldn't have written it if He didn't mean it.

The god of the bible is claimed to be omnipotent and omniscient.

If you can change the future, you are not omniscient. If you cannot you are not omnipotent.

Myth busted.

It leads me to the idea:

If you are omnipotent, you can change the future. If you are omniscient, you have no need to.

The problem with these supposed paradoxes is that they're framed to be interpreted within the limits of human understanding. Since humans are neither omniscient nor omnipotent, it's ridiculous to think that because something is paradoxical to us, it means it could not be true for a being that is both omnipotent and omniscient.

Think about it. This is akin to our scientists and engineers examining an alien spacecraft whose technology is vastly superior to ours, and stating that because our current technology cannot explain the way the craft works, the craft's technology is impossible.

Regardless, the fun thing about these paradoxes is that there is always a way to rationally explain them. For this example, why couldn't an omniscient being change the future while retaining omniscience? If such a being is truly omniscient, it would know the outcome of any and every change possible. There is no paradox here.

Originally posted by NeonStar
reply to post by Gregor100

 

dude your're a deadset idiot.. who made up those definitions of 'omnipotent' & 'omniscient'.. and when were they invented and does the entire human race agree with those definitions?? so are you basing your argument on websters defintion of two words which when translated from the orginal Greek or masoteric languages had someaht different interpretations.. We all know English is a bastardised language with these words borrowed from more ancient languages with clearer meanings.

lol...
The Bible says that God is all powerful and all knowing.
The words "omnipotent" and "omniscient" simply describe what the Bible already says.

Originally posted by devareous
it just means god is the alpha and the omega,he is teh all,love and hate,pain and pleasure,he is everything,thats what it means.Read the gosphel of thomas to understand when he gives allt he oppsites god is all them both side eveything.

No it doesn't ;

Thats a pretty strange reply you have there my friend.

No actually, it isn't strange it's just opinion.

Which is fine, but it doesn't mean it is right, or that the OP is necessarily right, it just means we have opinions.

What I don't like is people telling me what my opinion SHOULD be without giving me a hypothesis and testable experiments that I can carry out myself and derive my own conclusions from.

Science however gives us a lot more value than religion ever will., if we find a way to live beyond our "Deaths" it will be because of science, not because heyzeuss or some other hispanic fellow decides to "save" you.

Originally posted by jackflap
Set aside some time and tell God that you want to know the truth of His existence. Not for personal gain or to acquire some hidden knowlege but just to know who He is. Tell Him you want to have a relationship but in these times you need to see hard proof of His existence. Blind faith is not your thing. If you ask Him for the truth He will show it to you. I am not saying to tempt the Lord but I am trying to say for you to tell Him how you feel. Honestly.

If you look for the boogyman, you will find his shadow.
If you look for an animal in the clouds, you will see it.

Instead, ponder why the only way God can "show himself" is internally...

Yes, I have tried what you said, night after night after night - from the time it took me to convert from Christianity to atheism.
But I'm now a realist, and I see things for what they are.

If someone starved a child literally to death, and took enjoyment in watching----we would label that person as a twisted sick individual.

If someone preplanned the beating of a child to death, and watched the whole action, we would call that person a sadist and a murderer.

If someone created a severe catastrophic event that wiped out all the crops for a large population on purpose, that person would be evil.

If someone told and persuaded an entire village to kill their first born child, the villagers would think this person dangerously evil and crazy.

If someone wrote a book with all sorts of evil and twisted goings on, and things that can't possibly be true, filled with lies, etc. and proclaimed that book to be true, and we should follow that book even if it meant doing really bad things, and things that don't make a bit of sense, we would consider that person to be deranged and a liar, and a control freak.


Why is god any different?



[edit on 21-2-2009 by Schleprock]

reply to post by TruthParadox



I hear what your saying. I won't use scripture this time.


Most atheists demonstrate their basic trust in the meaningfulness of reality by being outraged at evil and injustice, thereby demonstrating that atheism cannot be lived out consistently.

What makes something evil or unjust if nothing like God exists — if nature is all there is? Only subjective choice either by an individual or a society. But that can change and it often does. Without God, the social prophet has no way out of relativism.


Alright I cant help myself I have to insert this one.

Isaiah 55: 6-7

6Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: 7let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Originally posted by jackflap
reply to post by TruthParadox

 

Most atheists demonstrate their basic trust in the meaningfulness of reality by being outraged at evil and injustice, thereby demonstrating that atheism cannot be lived out consistently.

Ah, attributing morality to something exclusive to god? Suppose its a natural survival instinct. We have strong evidence to suggest that morals are not exclusive to humans after all... article here

What makes something evil or unjust if nothing like God exists — if nature is all there is? Only subjective choice either by an individual or a society. But that can change and it often does. Without God, the social prophet has no way out of relativism.

Attributing this basic social skill that would be nessesary for survival inside any group that has a social structure is a little bit of a stretch...

It may be hard to fathom... but a person assigning importance to something does not indeed make it important. just/unjust being assigned any more importance than survival within a social structure is not a sigh of "god". Instead its the individual who wants to feel special vs. other species on earth.

Alright I cant help myself I have to insert this one.

hehe fair enough... I'll do one too

Ephesians 6:5

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.

Originally posted by nj2day

Originally posted by jackflap
reply to post by TruthParadox

 

hehe fair enough... I'll do one too

Ephesians 6:5

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.

You got me with all that stuff you wrote. Just the passage you quoted is beat if you don't include 6-9.

Ephesians 6:5-9

5Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; 6not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; 7with good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: 8knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. 9And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.

You see without putting it in context it does sound disturbing.

reply to post by jackflap


How about god being foiled by an army with Iron Chariots?

Judges 1:17-20

Then Judah joined with Simeon to fight against the Canaanites living in Zephath, and they completely destroyed the town. So the town was named Hormah. In addition, Judah captured the cities of Gaza, Ashkelon, and Ekron, along with their surrounding territories. The LORD was with the people of Judah, and they took possession of the hill country. But they failed to drive out the people living in the plains because the people there had iron chariots. The city of Hebron was given to Caleb as Moses had promised. And Caleb drove out the people living there, who were descendants of the three sons of Anak.




[edit on 21-2-2009 by nj2day]

Originally posted by badmedia
This is the same lame argument of can god create a rock he can not lift. The answer is YES, because it is just a choice. The only way he could not be all powerful is if he couldn't. But he can choose to create a rock that he can not lift, and he will not be able to lift it until he changes the rules that he can not lift it. Then he will lift it again. If you are all powerful it is nothing but a choice.

The father knows all, past, present and future. Our smaller perception is just a choice of limitation for the experience, just as the choice of the rock to not be lifted for that experience.

Go to a poker table, you can easily look at the cards. But you choose to make those cards that you can not see in order to play and experience the game.

The only thing the video proves is the person making it is clueless and wasn't looking for the truth.

Time to make you my friend and remove you from my foe list. You saved me from having to respond to this heathen inspired thread.

Originally posted by John Matrix
Time to make you my friend and remove you from my foe list. You saved me from having to respond to this heathen inspired thread.

Wow, a two liner for the purpose of flinging an insult?

Traditionally the word heathen is used to describe a pagan... however, since this thread has nothing to do with paganism, I can only conclude you meant to use the derogatory sense of the word...

Its about the same as calling someone a Wasp or a taig... (trust me... neither are good terms...)

Originally posted by TruthParadox
This is where it gets complicated, when talking about choice.
Because in a sense we do have a choice, but then again we really don't...
Whatever I "choose" is attached to many different things such as past experiences, societal influences, the way I was raised, etc.

If you have any choice at all, then you have free will. A computer program has no choice, it has no free will. A rocket has no choice, it has no free will. To be able to make any choice at all is to have free will.

All the things you describe is your experience and your ride. In all the universe, past present and future you have the unique experience there. Your own path in this universe, your own timeline and so on. But such is not you, such is the experience.

To us it appears that we have free-will, but anyone who created the domino effect we call the universe would know exactly what would influence us and thus, him being the maker, our free-will becomes irrelevant.

This assumes a linear reality. If we are in a linear reality, then we do have the domino effect. Then there is no free will, there is no choice. Part of free will is giving it away, usually for an experience.

Did Hitler have a choice?
Yes, in a sense. But that choice is irrelevant because it's only an illusion - he was never going to be any different.

Then why do you even bother discussing these topics. If you truly believed this, then you wouldn't even bother trying to change anything. Because it would obviously be pointless, as what everyone does is predetermined. I guess you just post here because you are powerless not to do so? You lack the inability to not post? Please. These all sound like excuses to me. Oh don't blame Hitler, he is just doing what he was made to do, he didn't have a choice in it. I think I've heard this excuse made before by religious types as well - "I am as god made me". To which I think - yeah well start acting like it.

If you could rewind the universe and play that section of History over again, it would be exactly the same. This is because the variables effecting his thought process would have been the same, and he ultimately would have made the same choice BASED ON those variables. His choice was decided by the variables, and thus (in the case of a creator) the maker of the variables.

It's exactly like a computer program.
if(x=1) do this;
if(x=2) do that;

Again you are stuck on a linear universe. Same linear mindset of Christians all around the world. If the world is linear as this, then there is no free will, there is no choice. Problem is, it's not linear.

What you show is actually why AI is called artificial. Because it lacks a requirement of real intelligence, free will. Does the earth have a choice in how it goes around the sun? It is bound by laws. And so it has no free will. It operates on laws, just as a computer program does. The computer program lacks intelligence because it is only able to do what it is programmed to do, and has no free will to choose anything outside the programming.

WE can see the variables, so we can determine the outcome every time.
To a lesser mind (say one within the program, if that were possible), there would appear to be a choice - but in reality, the choice is already made.
Likewise, an all knowing God could see the variable that effect us and know the outcome.

One "within" the program? Ohhhhh, you mean if it has "consciousness" within right? You mean if it has the ability to observe, reason and understand, then it could "think" it was making a choice, but it really isn't. But why would it need such an illusion, and what part of the program gives it these things? Again, you prove why I came to my understanding, why it's called artificial intelligence, and why/how you have actual intelligence.

Just take a step back and look at everything: past, present, and future.
It's like a painting - from that perspective, it's set in stone and the equation has played itself out.
We can only be what we are (past, present, and future).

It sure is, and I say this often. But you are looking at things as if it is a single movie film. I am looking at things as if all possibilities are there and happening, one by the other to infinity and there are an infinite amount of film strips side by side. If there is only a single movie film, then you are correct and we are stuck with what the director gave us. But such is not true reality. When it says all knowing, it means knows all possibilities. And that is what we are finding out about the universe in quantum physics, and as a result people are starting to understand things a bit better in terms of how religious stuff actually has a bit of meaning to it.

All that I've said is true and must be true on the basis that no thought or action is void of a source - that's impossible.

We are more similar to computer programs than we would like to think...

Computer programs have to have a conscious creator. I am able to write computer programs because I am able to understand and reason out logic. And using that logic I create a machine(program) that carries out the patterns I give it and then I get the results I want. Every single page on this website is generated based on the exact same bit of code and logic, and the only thing that changes is the variables. This logic is the law of the program. The law of the system. There is no choice ever.

But you have actual intelligence. You are beyond that. And it is your consciousness that is that little piece of god, that little piece of you that says "I AM". The ability to reason, understand and so on.

The entire thing on this planet is to get people to subject and give away their free will. Manipulation exists to change the way reality appears to you, so that you will react in a manner those who manipulate want. Because you do have free will, you have to be tricked into doing things. The powers that be would love nothing less than for you to not have free will, and so they purposely try to reduce people down to an action and reaction level.

If you want to make the argument that many people on this earth have been dumbed down, had their free will stripped away because of ignorance of the truth, and then treated like a tool then you will get no argument from me. But part of free will is the ability to give it away, and that is what these people have done. To say this is the way reality is would be untrue however.

You sound like the guy from the Matrix. Choice is an illusion between those with power and those without. And this is very true in how our society as whole and "group think" works. People do believe they are free when they are not in society. And so forth. 100% is this true among society today. But it is not true of the universe itself. It is only true of the society we subscribe to based on our own free will and choice. Which is why people are needed to be kept ignorant and manipulated in the first place. They do not realize what they do. But these people are not the ones with a price to pay, it is those who have done the manipulation and such that need to be worried right about now.

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
If god exist why dont we all believe in him ?
Why those who do believe in a god or gods dont believe in the same ways?
Why it's always only one lucky guy, girl who as the privilege of talking to this god and then the mission too spread the truth to the non-believers?
Why religions are always closely linked to ethical enteties, (ex: caucasians mostly believing in christianity, arabians mostly believing in the islamic religion, asians in boudha, indian in hindou.) or even political beliefs, (ex:France, italia, spain, mostly catholics while england, germany, netherlands are mostly protestants.)
Why are we born without the idea of the existance of a god, we have to learn beleving.

Because most people are either blinded by the sin in their lives or they look in all the wrong places for God.

Originally posted by jackflap
Most atheists demonstrate their basic trust in the meaningfulness of reality by being outraged at evil and injustice, thereby demonstrating that atheism cannot be lived out consistently.

I consider 'evil and injustice' to include:
* Killing your child because he/she disobeys
* Killing a woman who is being raped if she does not scream loud enough
* Destroying a town and killing everyone in it if they do not believe in God
* An eternity of torture just for not believing in the extraordinary
* Killing gays
* Killing adulterers
* Killing every first born son in a nation just because the pharaoh is being stubborn
* Killing everyone in a worldwide flood who is evil, and yet somehow forgetting that there must have been countless children and newborns who committed no evil and where killed regardless.
* etc, etc etc...

I guess my moral compass is pointing as far away from your Bible as it can, because all of the above and much more is written in the Bible.

Evil, injustice, and absurdities: coming to a Bible near you!

Originally posted by jackflap
What makes something evil or unjust if nothing like God exists — if nature is all there is? Only subjective choice either by an individual or a society. But that can change and it often does.

It's what makes our society run smoothly.
It's what makes us feel good about ourselves and feel like we are more than animals.
There doesn't need to be a God for something to be unjust...

Originally posted by TruthParadox

Originally posted by jackflap
Most atheists demonstrate their basic trust in the meaningfulness of reality by being outraged at evil and injustice, thereby demonstrating that atheism cannot be lived out consistently.

I consider 'evil and injustice' to include:
* Killing your child because he/she disobeys
* Killing a woman who is being raped if she does not scream loud enough
* Destroying a town and killing everyone in it if they do not believe in God
* An eternity of torture just for not believing in the extraordinary
* Killing gays
* Killing adulterers
* Killing every first born son in a nation just because the pharaoh is being stubborn
* Killing everyone in a worldwide flood who is evil, and yet somehow forgetting that there must have been countless children and newborns who committed no evil and where killed regardless.
* etc, etc etc...

I guess my moral compass is pointing as far away from your Bible as it can, because all of the above and much more is written in the Bible.

Evil, injustice, and absurdities: coming to a Bible near you!

Originally posted by jackflap
What makes something evil or unjust if nothing like God exists — if nature is all there is? Only subjective choice either by an individual or a society. But that can change and it often does.

It's what makes our society run smoothly.
It's what makes us feel good about ourselves and feel like we are more than animals.
There doesn't need to be a God for something to be unjust...

Apparently you missed the part where the people who did those things did so out of not understanding the commandments. And then where Jesus comes along and shows people how to follow them properly, in which you do not kill these people, and you do not do these things.

Because these people who killed forgot - "Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord". There actions were seen as 2 sins, not just 1. There is no such thing as being "justified" when it comes to breaking commandments.

But by using such examples from the bible as a way of dismissing it all, rather than searching for truth, you are searching for a way to avoid the truth in it. You should separate such things if you are looking for truth.

I personally like Buddhas opinion on such things.

Buddha said -- Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.

Go ahead and look at what Jesus says and his example. I find it to agrees with reason and is conductive to the good and benefit of one and all. I accept it and try to live up to it. When it comes to the things you mention, I do not find them to be the same. I find it is hypocritical because in their actions they break the commandment to not kill.