In the event of Civil War......

I have a few comments to add to this fine thread...First, if you are wondering how to move forward with a revolution with regards to how to select a new government, what rights to give etc look no further to the U.S. Constitution, the instructions so-to-speak have already been well crafted. With regard to the military; it is true the military is a disciplined entity, but they aren't mindless fools either. And like many have pointed out there are a lot people in both the military and law enforcement world that are very suppoortive of revolutionist thought.

I do think an armed conflict against government right away would be quickly foiled. Mainly because the military/law enforcement still has numbers and resources to quell uprisings that are not larger than one or two cities wide. However, once people quit paying the taxes that area funding the military and law enforcement; their ability to respond (and will to respond against such acts) will be greatly diminished. Why fight a head on war with the bastards that have hijacked our country when we can esentially pull the carpet out from under them.

pEOPLE R NUTS CIVIL WAR? YOU SHOULD HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT THAT 8 YEARS AGO.

reply to post by whaaa

"whaa" has some good points. Such as the fact that gov't would react strongly to any uprising. But I cannot get behind the escapist ideal of running away to Mexico (especially if you don't like chaos and anarchy) while your country burns, hoping to come back and make friends with whoever wins. Our original founders knew that Gov't would react strongly also. They risked their considerable fortunes and very lives to stand up for what they believed in. Letting this country devolve into a socialist state is unacceptable and there must come a point where we draw the line. There are some things worse than dieing and some that are worth dieing for. Of course there is the very real possibility that the down fall of America is exactly what God has in mind. We have turned our backs on Him and kicked Him out of our schools, courts, public places, etc. God used ungodly nations such as the Assyrians to punish His chosen people. Why would He hesitate to use radical Muslims to punish this blessed nation? He has already shown His willingness to do so.
ServantofGod

Yeah, I'm ready. Let's do it.

I think it should be peaceful...we should ask every politician from the president down to the local assembly person to step down.

I'm talking about something that is absolutely NON-VIOLENT.

We should use the internet and have a web site for public opinion polls and send the results to every news media outlet that will listen.

How do we start???

We should be able to re-write every law on the books so they make sense.

We should take back all this bailout money and give it to every home owner to pay off their mortgages.

We should stop this war in Iraq - Afganistan. Pull out all our troops and tell them if they don't give lay down their arms, we are going to nuke them - done - no nonsense.

We should send troops to our borders to cut off the illegal flow of drugs into this country. Anyone caught smuggling drugs should be shot on site. They don't deserve due process.

Anyone caught trying to enter the country should be dealt with humanely. They should be given a hot shower, good meal, a new set of clothes to wear home, immunized for deseases and sent back home.

We need a place at the border to do this and then we can allow them in the LEGAL way. Can anyone say "ELLIS ISLAND"?

We should stop sending food, medicine, clothing to other parts of the world.

We should throw the UN out of the country and send them to the Middle East. Maybe if everyone wanted to get along and sing cum-by-ya they should do it in a place where they can get shot at. Also, we should stop funding them too. We fund 25% of all UN functions. It should end.

We should stop educating foreign nationals.

We should make the language of the country English and stop this bi-lingual nonsense.

We should get rid of - deficit spending and put the country back on the gold standard.

You know, I wasn't a fan of Ron Paul(is that his name?) but now I am. He is the only one that is speaking about real freedoms.

All politicians are liers and idiots.

We should restrict public service for a maximum of 8 years in office. No one person should hold a seat in the house, senate, judge for life. That is just stupid.

You know, I'm sick and tired of all this nonsense. And if anyone thinks Obama is going to change anything - I have to say w-t-f are you smoking?

You know how freak'n stupid are people? Here In NYC they just raised property taxes - again. They stopped the rebate checks from going out and then - two weeks later - this idiot "paterson" just said they are not going to raise property taxes!!! Of course not - you just freak'n raised them.

This is way - way out of control.

Our founding documents state that "WE THE PEOPLE", if we don't like what's going on, It is up to "US" to change the government. Because the founding fathers new - government would not change government.


How can we start the PEACEFUL REVOLUTION? I AM WILLING TO HELP.

I've not heard a single comment about civil war.. except on this board.

I'm sure many here love the thought of one, since gloom, doom, tragedy and disaster really seems to excite some folks here, but I think the reality is a bit different. I don't hear about people buying land out of the country or in the countryside, nor buying a bunch of guns, nor stocking up on food. There is some talk of the economic issues, but I don't get 1/100th the gloom and doom that I do visiting here.

I'm not against trying peaceful means first. I think a good starting point to garner support for the cause is some large scale protests (and I'm usually the kind of person that think protestors are idiots). We the people state rallies in our state capitals and warn our elected officials that if they don't make decicions more in line with the will of the people that we will simply not fund their government any longer. When they see large numbers of people warning/threatening not to pay taxes a few things will begin. 1. some in the government may wake up 2. They will start to telegraph their plans should the people stop paying taxes (remember intelligence in any operation is important) 3. The rallies will get the word out and get more people on board. Like many have mentioned there are a lot of people talking about "revolution" or tax revolt but there is no large scale organized effort. There needs to be a core effort...Perhaps a serious third political party? The American Constitutionalist Party would be good. Once there is a core organization for people to gather behind then we have a true movement beginning.

Originally posted by mrsdudara
Everyone is getting upset by where the country is headed. Finances, taxes, the rumors of amendments - that we each hold dear - being at risk. The way foreign policies are being handled. Gitmo closing. Imigration.

Your amendments being at risk? That's been happening for the last 8 years. Gradually Bush has dismantled the rights of every American in every way imaginable.

If anything, I'd say your rights are more secure under Obama than they ever were under Bush.

How on Earth did the Bush administration manage to make a 100 mile wide strip around the border/coast of your country a "civil rights free zone" without it causing any dissent?

That just shows that the average American cannot be bothered to fight to defend their rights, until they feel the baton smacking them directly. People don't care about rights being taken until they are feeling it, and unless you have massive numbers of people feeling it, there will be little or no dissent.

Civil war is only going to happen under the following two scenarios (IMO):

Complete financial failure, leading to massive rioting, looting, overthrowing of regional governments and the anticipated crackdown this would create.

Assassination of the president, leading to the same scenario.

And the reason I state these is due to historical precedent.
Just look at how massive civil unrest comes about; you have a section of society feeling like victims of a perceived or actual unfairness. They protest against it, often violently. The response (especially since Bush seemed to encourage the "destroy dissent" response over and above "protecting the public" in national policing) is to quell any disruption with force. This leads to further distrust and a feeling of unfairness. This causes more uprising. And so the spiral continues until you are in a state of chaos.

There have been several examples recently of this happening in other countries. Thankfully, they've not yet seen the complete breakdown in civil stability.
There have been several periods recently where it has been a real risk to America, specifically the election of a man who carries the hopes of millions and the associated risks of an attack against him.

The risks now increase, due to increased unemployment, the risks of massive corporations sinking, more people feeling dejected and with the time on their hands to organize protest.
As you have more and more people with nothing to loose, you have more and more chances of a sparking protest where a Police officer (or entire regional force) steps out of line and the issue spreads to other states.

Keep a cautious eye on California. Because if the government doesn't step in to solve their financial crisis soon, expect to see massive protests, and a massive response in turn.

Most global economists and social analysts are looking to America right now to see the warning signs, you are the benchmark, the ones likely to show what will possibly happen in every nation due to this financial crisis.
And as Americans you should all be looking to California and NY as the benchmark for what is to come in every state within a few months if there isn't a change to prevent it.

If I lived in California or NY right now, I'd be looking for some place to escape to.
If I lived in any other state, I'd be watching these two carefully, and as soon as the protests start, I'd be looking for somewhere more rural to escape to.
As a person living in Europe, I'm looking at America to see when the signs of a complete collapse come, and then deciding if I should start to plan a more rural place to live. I don't really need to worry until I see a collapse in London.

But rest assured, if that day comes and I start to see London hit by riots to equal the Poll Tax unrest, blackouts, an unstable government and widespread fear in my own city, I'll be out of here within 24 hours.

An interesting note: I work in Security. Over the last few months we were all commenting on how our business is improving, and yet crime wasn't increasing (security is a need under insurance, and increased fear of crime means increased business for us).
But in the last month alone, we have seen a dramatic increase in criminal activity against our clients. Almost daily we are seeing clients being hit by break-ins and theft. And they are becoming more bold by the day, often hitting in daylight, and while staff are clearly present.

Do not trust when your government states that crime is not increasing, in the UK, it most certainly is, and very dramatically. They probably just don't have the figures yet, but I assure you it is happening.

A correction, if I may... And I apologize in advance if someone has already interjected. But we would NOT be facing a civil war; we would be facing a revolutionary war - coup of sorts. Any fighting likely to break out in this country will ultimately be between the US military and Libertarians (read as citizens) bent on reinstating the true intent of the Constitution.

The key differences between a civil war and revolutionary war are as follows: In a civil war, two or more factions of the same society fight each other for idealogical control over the others. In a revolutionary war you have citizens fighting to overthrow the existing government. Where they share simililarities is the the winning "Side" is able to impose it's will upon the losers. I think the confusion is often rooted in the similarities without understanding the core difference.

What we are likely to witness in this country is either a.) a bloodless coup where either the citizenry or the military force the existing leadership out and either take control militarily of facilitate a Constitutional transition of government to newly elected officials. or b.) a revolution with the people of this country fighting to supplant the existing government with the military protecting it.

Sorry if I derailed the thread at all. I just thought the distinctions were important enough to point out.

Edit: Spelling and such

[edit on 24-1-2009 by kozmo]

The conflict between light and dark will never be won by killing fellow humans, ultimately the conflict exists within ourselves. Instead of focusing on the dark thus giving it energy, we must focus on the light and transmute it permanently. The larger the groups emanating light the greater the effect on a dark world. To kill hatred and fear requires Love and Compassion, the only way that humanity will evolve is when we ALL are able to exist this way. Until ALL of us do exist this way we ALL will repeat this paradigm.

reply to post by kozmo


NO, please dont apologise! That was an excelent point and additon to the thread. Your knowledge is appreciated.

reply to post by PaulKCA


PaulKCA, Your post seems so "altruistic" for lack of a better word right now. Perhaps even naieve. Just know there will always be people full of love and compassion that are willing to fight darkness to defend it...That conviction does not make them wrong.

reply to post by whaaa


Well put and pretty accurate. I think food and water would end up being more important than your political views. Most people couldn't even last a week let alone months with out Starbucks or a grocery store. Yeah there are people that could fight but even countries like Iraq that had a somewhat trained military, lasted a month. So a bunch of untrained folks running around with 9mm pistols will more than likely just rob you of your food and water. And I did get the memo

What I don't know is what the sides will be.
Will it be left vs right? Conservatives vs the Obama machine? Blacks vs whites? People vs the govt?

Its scary though. I hope I am wrong but it seems to me there is a bigger chance of a liberal vs conservative fight. now how you define the two is a little trickier. IMHO it would along the lines of the Rush Limbaugh types vs the Obama machine. (how you define the two is open for debate) yeah I know its open to nit-picking and a little general but, its not goin to look pretty.

I just hope this doesn't end up in a scenario similar to the "Ashes" book series by William W. Johnstone. However, if anyone has read them, you know what I am talking about!

I really don't want to drag this into a discussion of the tactical aspects of a revolution in the U.S. But we as the citizens of the U.S. are not like the citizens of Iraq. Its an apples to oranges comparison. First off, we the American people are better armed than the Iraqi populace. And to describe a potential revolution as a bunch of untrained people running around with 9mm is a bit of an underestimation. IF a revolution was to occur in the U.S. there would be guerilla warfare the likes of which hasn't been seen before. While many countries like Afghanistan and Iraq had guerilla fighters used of some urban combat they still had a focus on rural operations. I think in the U.S. any guerilla movement would be equally adept at operating in the cities. Please don't mistake my post as saying the citizenry could easily overthow trained military forces. I'm just saying the resistance would be stronger than you think.

Merriam- Webster's definition of "CIVIL WAR"


Main Entry:
civil war
Function:
noun
Date:
15th century

: a war between opposing groups of citizens of the same country


It is a war of civilians against other civilians.

As opposed to a REVOLUTIONARY war, in which citizens rebel against the Government.

Please note the difference.

reply to post by whaaa


If the Russians were to nuke most of your major cities do you think that might even the odds up a bit for those fighting against your government during a civil war?

reply to post by PhoenixDemon


But we don't have access to mil-grade explosives as readily as they do in Afghanistan or Iraq. all we would have is homemade stuff that is not mil-grade. unless someone raids a military base successfully. Which i doubt.

I don't see a civil war coming. I see a revolution coming. I will fight on the side that supports the constitution and bill of rights. The Military will play a big role in this, and we will see the good side of the U.S. armed forces come out as they will whole heartedly smash the evil traitors that are running things. I will join with the "rebel" military forces that will surface.

It WILL result in a period of lawlessness and anarchy. When the smoke clears we have to keep in mind what our founding fathers had in mind, and refresh the great REPUBLIC we live in, and live by the rule of LAW. This will ensure our ability to be a free, and productive nation of non slaves for generations to come.

We need to take drastic measures to make sure that the flaws of our current system are eliminated, by having a new system of checks and balances that completely eliminates the possiblity of corruption.

Good luck, and stand tall. We the People will win this, there is no doubt.

reply to post by GenRadek


Who needs military explosives? We don't need to blow up armored vehicles and other hardened targets that require actual high speed explosives. Ferilizer bombs and other volitile gas bombs can wreak havoc if thats what you want to do. And I tend to agree with you, assualting a military base is a BAD BAD idea...

I digress, again the tactics employed in a U.S. based revolution is the topic of another thread.

Is there such a thing as a 'Civil' war?

What does one with Sovereignty have that a 'civilian' could only dream of?

Why is this and who is to gain from the 'relationship'?