Warning! Enlightenment is Dangerous!

I think it’s telling that Christians generally avoid plumbing the depths of their own beliefs -- side-stepping the more penetrating questions, opting for obfuscation over clarity (ETC.) -- often citing the sort of “dangers” and invoking fears similar to those on display in the OP. Take it from me (an experienced Anti-Christian apologist), the modus operandi employed by Omega Point (et al) is both sickeningly familiar and (IMO) symptomatic of THE foundation on which the Christian mindset is constructed: FEAR.

Hell, even the most compelling arguments and the best-reasoned justifications for adopting and maintaining Christian beliefs can’t circumvent the inevitable shaking-in-their-boots mentality. But what business has fear in the realm of belief justification? None! FEAR, whether primarily that of missing out on some reward ...or based more heavily on the prospect of not missing out on the punishment (see Pascal's Wager), can’t possibly cut the mustard in terms of justifying other beliefs (at least not in line with maintaining the integrity of one’s intellectual honesty), because the proposal would itself be contingent on belief (namely in the doctrine of reward and punishment) and would thereby call for justification in its own rite. What's more, I believe that many Christians know this (at least on some level); that they sense the (((shakiness))) of the core tenets of their Faith; and that, for the sake of protecting the flimsy belief structure that might save them from eternal damnation, they often try to shield those tenets from the cold and indiscriminating winds of logic and reason.

But qui prodest?

Also, I really have to wonder as to how anyone could sincerely (and in good conscience) "worship" a God who'd set forth this "believe in ME in the absence of proof, OR ELSE" policy anyway. Personally, if the God of Christianity exists ...and the commonly accepted dogma WRT "HIS" nature (ETC.) is true, instead of placing such a twisted TYRANT on a pedestal for the sake of attaining a personal reward, I'd much prefer an eternal skinny-dip in The Lake of Fire, …because that’s the purported prize for what I’d see as the more virtuous course of action. So, perhaps somewhat ironically (in light of The Argument from Objective Moral Values and the holier-than-thou attitudes that seem to emanate from many Christian circles), I'm mainly opposed to Christianity on moral grounds!

Go figure, eh.

[edit on 2/1/2009 by Icarus_Fallen]

It's not about reward and punishment, but liberation, and a transformation into a new way of being. The kingdom of heaven is now, but few see it. It is a kingdom of light and love.

From what I can tell, the final conflict or tension, is between life as meaningless absurdity, or, life as meaningful, valuable, and significant. And if I am correct, there are higher beings who's full time job it is to preserve and protect the latter.

Here are two hymns by Charles Wesley which I think capture something that I've been trying to describe

Oh for a thousand tongues to sing
my great Redeemer's praise,
the glories of my God and King,
the triumphs of his grace!

My gracious Master and my God,
assist me to proclaim,
to spread through all the earth abroad
the honors of thy name.

Jesus! the name that charms our fears,
that bids our sorrows cease;
'tis music in the sinner's ears,
'tis life, and health, and peace.

He breaks the power of canceled sin,
he sets the prisoner free;
his blood can make the foulest clean;
his blood availed for me.

He speaks, and listening to his voice,
new life the dead receive;
the mournful, broken hearts rejoice,
the humble poor believe.

In Christ, your head, you then shall know,
shall feel your sins forgiven,
anticipate your heaven below,
and own that love in heaven.

-----------

And can it be that I should gain
an interest in the Savior's blood?
Died He for me, who caused His pain--
for me, who Him to death pursued?
Amazing love! how can it be
that Thou, my God, shouldst die for me?

'Tis mystery all! Th' Immortal dies:
Who can explore His strange design?
In vain the first-born seraph tries
to sound the depths of love divine.
'Tis mercy all! let earth adore,
let angel minds inquire no more.

He left His Father's throne above,--
so free, so infinite His grace--
emptied Himself of all but love,
and bled for Adam's helpless race:
'Tis mercy all, immense and free;
for, O my God, it found out me!

Long my imprisoned spirit lay
Fast bound in sin and nature's night;
Thine eye diffused a quickening ray,--
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
my chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.

No condemnation now I dread;
Jesus, and all in Him, is mine!
Alive in Him, my living Head,
and clothed in righteousness divine,
Bold I approach the eternal throne,
and claim the crown, thorugh Christ my own.

I believe that the fundamental problem and its resolution involves the issue of integrity regarding the relationship between subjective observer and the objective reality.

I too am a solipsist, since anything else would terminate in a meaningless absurdity and ultimately, the denial of existence itself.

…From what I can tell, the final conflict or tension, is between life as meaningless absurdity, or, life as meaningful, valuable, and significant. […]

*sniff sniff*

Ah, the stagnancy of the false dichotomy: I’ve smelled it a time or two before.

News Flash, Omega Point: “meaning”, “value”, and “significance” aren’t solely the provinces of your convoluted worldview, nor is “absurdity” precluded from the same.

[edit on 2/1/2009 by Icarus_Fallen]

I find this concept very scary and quite delusional. To claim you are god under the guise that we all are one is a cope out to me and yet another thing us human beings coin and ride. Its just so silly to see people say "I am god, deal with it" like some pompous human, we are ALL mortal and we are anything BUT gods... Has anyone here ever taken a few minutes to look at an animal and realize it has everything we have? they cough, they fart and they dream just like all of us. So why is it that humanity thinks its something more then just flesh? because we have the pleasure to "think" where animals use the 5 senses. Sadly we have put ourselves onto this pedestal and let our imaginations run wild. Don't get me wrong i respect a good person for being a good person but to call yourself a "god" is insulting and actually quite macabre... I can't understand how one can proclaim this without being under some form of influence (be it Buddah or Jesus) but rest assured you people DO do it.

The real question is do we truly believe our minds can leave the body or does it stay?? i humbly believe it stays and everything is internal, all else is debatable (satellites)

How many times have these people thought they were not real and everything is an illusion??? that to me is bar none mind control... Everywhere i look i see some yogi or master trying to "uplift" me into the higher realms of thought but see a major flaw in almost everyone of them - arrogance. Why arrogance?? because anything not they're system is considered lower and all of us are "needed" to expand this energy. If you have a keen eye you can spot this but most people don't even understand this when they are ranting to you - for days i might add.

I think people need a real good swift kick in the butt to bring them back down HERE to reality... He who can realize his wrongs surely will grow, but he who denies the obvious surely is in the "Ouroboros".

Not to mention how prolonged meditation can cause serious mental problems like most "magicians", this concept is surely wrecking your character and i have no problem with saying this because. Has anyone ever heard someone who does meditation for years? how the speak? with such a slooooww monotone voice i always wondered WHY they would speak like this... well simply put forcing your mind into nothingness over and over is not good for it... Its absolute boredom with a cynical spiritual side, meditation.

I don't see problems with doing it every so often for stress but daily surely has adverse effects on ones outlook on reality, like not living in it.

Originally posted by Icarus_Fallen

…From what I can tell, the final conflict or tension, is between life as meaningless absurdity, or, life as meaningful, valuable, and significant. […]

*sniff sniff*

Ah, the stagnancy of the false dichotomy: I’ve smelled it a time or two before.

News Flash, Omega Point: “meaning”, “value”, and “significance” aren’t solely the provinces of your convoluted worldview, nor is “absurdity” precluded from the same.

[edit on 2/1/2009 by Icarus_Fallen]

What I'm merely suggesting, is that we as created beings, endowed with self conscious awareness and made in the image of God (with free will) are a variable of a supreme value, which itself is whole and perfect, and Just - and that we, as fallen creatures, lose integrity relative to God, resulting in a separataion, where, to break any part of the law of life and love, is to break the whole of it. Furthermore, we are imprisoned in our own subjective interpretations (delusions), and are not even aware of the degree of our sinfulness (blind spot). In short, we're screwed. Any honest and rationally minded person will come to that conclusion, and will come to understand that we cannot engineer our own salvation.

or, life is empty, meaningless and absurd - in spite of all the evidence to the contrary.

or, just maybe, it's BOTH.. lol - but I suspect that my ability to laugh about this, may be due in no small part, to my Christian faith and experience.

"I came so that you would have life to the full, even to overflowing!"


To JohnWdoe, those who are born from above ARE children OF God, who is the First Father of Creation (first cause argument).

Man is created to contain the spirit of God, and our destiny is to transcend our animal nature.

[edit on 1-2-2009 by OmegaPoint]

P.S. For those interested in a powerful meditation tool, try this

www.centerpointe.com...

I've been using it, and as of late I've been feeling like a kid again.

I find this whole thread thoroughly confusing. On one hand, there is a thinly-veiled proselytizing, then, shift gears and try out this helpful new age meditation technique (with an individual in the middle of a pyramid as their logo no less) for the one low price of blah blah blah. I did however get some divine feelings upon gazing at the beautiful woman meditating at the top of the page. Ha ha, that's a good natured joke, an expression of love. I do follow you on some of these points.

My personal feeling is that I cannot objectively experience enlightenment in the framework of religion. True enlightenment transcends religions, all of which are earthly creations despite any type of supposed divine inspiration. Most people fear the reality of human nature's duality, and that is why religion is comfortable, because it caters (and feeds) those fears. I believe that the biggest and most dangerous lie is that mankind has a sinful nature. I believe that mankind has a divine nature. And I believe that we are designed to awaken it when we are at the right spiritual development. And anyone who disagrees has every right to, as I am expressing a personal belief.

Originally posted by OmegaPoint
P.S. For those interested in a powerful meditation tool, try this

www.centerpointe.com...

I've been using it, and as of late I've been feeling like a kid again.

"But what if I told you that you could meditate as deeply as a Zen monk, literally at the touch of a button,

I some how very MUCH doubt this claim. No I really do, what actually is this technique based on? Is it music you listen to or tones? It takes many many years to become a Zen monk, really how this can be achieved by the touch of a button is beyond me.

What do you actually do in this technique? Is it relaxation based or spiritual in nature?

Safely and effortlessly take you to states of profoundly deep (and extremely pleasurable) meditation…

care to describe what this feels like one achieved? Similar "feelings" are achieved with kundalini meditation, is this what this is based on? What ever it is, money looks like it is required at one point. What price is enlightenment these days?



[edit on 2-2-2009 by Mr Green]

Originally posted by woodtiger
My personal feeling is that I cannot objectively experience enlightenment in the framework of religion. True enlightenment transcends religions, all of which are earthly creations despite any type of supposed divine inspiration. Most people fear the reality of human nature's duality, and that is why religion is comfortable, because it caters (and feeds) those fears. I believe that the biggest and most dangerous lie is that mankind has a sinful nature. I believe that mankind has a divine nature. And I believe that we are designed to awaken it when we are at the right spiritual development. And anyone who disagrees has every right to, as I am expressing a personal belief.

I totally agree with you Thank you for putting it so well. True enligtenment must transend religion, the world has too many religions for them ALL to be the one way. Im sorry if my opinion upsets many, but this is how I have started to feel. Im in no way against religion, I just see myself as a spiritual person rather than a religious one. Does that mean my search for enlightenment has shown me the dark side...no I dont think so.

Originally posted by Mr Green

Originally posted by OmegaPoint
P.S. For those interested in a powerful meditation tool, try this

www.centerpointe.com...

I've been using it, and as of late I've been feeling like a kid again.

"But what if I told you that you could meditate as deeply as a Zen monk, literally at the touch of a button,

I some how very MUCH doubt this claim. No I really do, what actually is this technique based on? Is it music you listen to or tones? It takes many many years to become a Zen monk, really how this can be achieved by the touch of a button is beyond me.

What do you actually do in this technique? Is it relaxation based or spiritual in nature?

Safely and effortlessly take you to states of profoundly deep (and extremely pleasurable) meditation…

care to describe what this feels like one achieved?

[edit on 2-2-2009 by Mr Green]

I've done all the research on this, and am using it daily, and the claims are true, as hard as that may be to believe.

It feels like being awake and asleep at the same time, but it's what happens when you sleep at night when the mind restructures itself from the new input, that progress is realized.

After just a few days, mental clarity increases dramatically, the senses are hightened, and the usual mind chatter begins to slow down.

It uses binaural beats to entrain brainwaves (placed within a background of environmental sounds like rain, bells, musical tones), taking the listener directly through the various stages of deep meditation. In fact, it produces DEEPER states than those realized by Zen masters, Yogis, whatever.

Furthermore, it stirs up the unconscious material such that when you use the technology, you can't help BUT do much needed shadow work.

It's well worth taking the time to look into. I found out about it when doing some internet surfing to find out whatever I could about the pineal gland.

But literally within days or weeks at most, you'll be meditating like a Sufi mystic who's been practicing medidation for years and years, but without the philosophical framework of course, something you can explore on your own, based on whatever tradition suits your fancy.



[edit on 2-2-2009 by OmegaPoint]

reply to post by OmegaPoint


Sorry I added the edit below after you replied, I added


"care to describe what this feels like one achieved? Similar "feelings" are achieved with kundalini meditation, is this what this is based on? What ever it is, money looks like it is required at one point. What price is enlightenment these days"

I find it very hard to believe you feel what a Zen monk feels only after several days.

All I can say is that it's well worth the cost, and the service and additional material they send goes above and beyond.

Of course, in my waking life I'm not a Zen Master yet by any means, but I can definitely tell that the process is happening, and it's FAST.

I can't recommend it enough for those interested in meditation, consciousness, psychological and spiritual growth.

And since this thread is about enlightenment, I figured might as well make mention of that powerful tool, and no I don't work for them or get a commission.

Here's a link regarding the science behind it

www.centerpointe.com...


And yes, I suppose I'm being hypocritical to start a thread saying, WARNING! ENLIGHTENMENT IS DANGEROUS! and now here I am suggesting people obtain a technology for an accelerated path to enlightenment via deep meditation.

Forgive me, I'm only human.

[edit on 2-2-2009 by OmegaPoint]

reply to post by OmegaPoint


Mmm well maybe if it works for you, but I dont think Id really bother. How do you know its not the placebo effect, your making yourself feel happy and enlightened because you "think" this is what the tape is doing for you? Ive tryed many techniques that seemed to work but then when I question the actual workings behind them its like the technique suddenly doesnt work, like Ive seen it was me achieving the results and not the technique...the placebo effect.

Why turn to things like this? Why not read up on ancient teachings instead that are free.

Check the link I just offered regarding the science behind it, and you'll understand why I'm excited, and why I'm feeling so damn good.

Did you know that when you sleep and undergo the various brainwave patterns of the stages of sleep, that at the deepest level of dreamless sleep is when the organs of the body regenerate?

Originally posted by OmegaPoint
Check the link I just offered regarding the science behind it, and you'll understand why I'm excited, and why I'm feeling so damn good.

Did you know that when you sleep and undergo the various brainwave patterns of the stages of sleep, that at the deepest level of dreamless sleep is when the organs of the body regenerate?

I still say the gap between playing a tape for several days that alters brain waves is very far off enlightenment. What has the regeneration of organs got to do with enlightenment? Organs are of the body, enlightenment is of the spirit. Besides the only organ I know that can regenerate is the liver. Yes body cells regenerate but not organs as a whole. If this tape is telling you its enabling your organs to regenerate its decieving you.

The tape isn't telling me anything - it just takes me through the various brainwave patterns of advanced meditation.

I was just pointing out something of the healing properties which correlate to brainwave patterns, in particular theta and delta states.

I think of the mind as a container for the spirit. What the program does is create new neuronal connections and higher complexity in brain structure, as well as synchrony between the left and right hemispheres. It's not a scam, and what I've been experiencing isn't a placebo effect.

Like I said, one would have to do the research, if interested in being able to achieve advanced meditative states without years and years of practice.

Bottom line it's very good for you, and personally I don't have the time or the wherewithall to devote a large portion of my life to learning how to meditate effectively, and the technology produces a deeper state anyway. In fact, it takes you into a continual wakeful delta state, which exceeds that of the Zen masters.

"There is a principal which is a bar against all information and proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principal is contempt, prior to investigation."
~ Herbert Spencer

That quote can also be applied to many people's pre-conceived bias against Christianity, not to be confused with what I call "Churchianity".

[edit on 2-2-2009 by OmegaPoint]

Originally posted by OmegaPoint


Like I said, one would have to do the research, if interested in being able to achieve advanced meditative states without years and years of practice.

Bottom line it's very good for you, and personally I don't have the time or the wherewithall to devote a large portion of my life to learning how to meditate effectively, and the technology produces a deeper state anyway. In fact, it takes you into a continual wakeful delta state, which exceeds that of the Zen masters.

Well it may be producing a change in brain waves to induce a state of meditation but I really cant see how it can give you the wisdom and enlightenment the Zen monks spend years learning. Dont you not think enlightenment is a little more complicated than altering brain waves?

It sounds interesting non the less and please keep us informed on your progress, Id be very interested to see how you go.

Yes I see what you mean...you started the thread saying enlightenment is dangerous and now you are posting techniques in how to reach it!

Do you still think its dangerous then? Maybe I could ask you that after a month of this tape..that would be interesting. See what hidden door ways these brain waves open in you.

Originally posted by JohnWdoe
I find this concept very scary and quite delusional. To claim you are god under the guise that we all are one is a cope out to me and yet another thing us human beings coin and ride. Its just so silly to see people say "I am god, deal with it" like some pompous human, we are ALL mortal and we are anything BUT gods... Has anyone here ever taken a few minutes to look at an animal and realize it has everything we have? they cough, they fart and they dream just like all of us. So why is it that humanity thinks its something more then just flesh? because we have the pleasure to "think" where animals use the 5 senses. Sadly we have put ourselves onto this pedestal and let our imaginations run wild. Don't get me wrong i respect a good person for being a good person but to call yourself a "god" is insulting and actually quite macabre... I can't understand how one can proclaim this without being under some form of influence (be it Buddah or Jesus) but rest assured you people DO do it.

I think you misunderstand what someone means to say "I am god". If this person means to say that they, and only they are god, then I would have to agree with you. If this person is to say that in their current perspective they are "god", then I would have to agree with you.

When I say such a thing it does not at all mean I am actually god. What is being referred to is the recognition of god within the person.

I consider this to be father and son type relationship. Just as your child is not exactly you, he does grow up to become alot like you, there is alot of him in you, and so on. Of course, he can never have the perspective you do on life, or have seen the things you have seen.

And so the father(god) has the perspective of being all knowing. The son(us) have limited perspectives. Big difference. As Jesus says, the father is much greater than I.

It is impossible to be equal to the father, the moment such a thing happened then it would be nothing more than you being "absorbed" by the father. Because there is only 1 perspective that knows all, the father.

I look at people in terms of perspectives I guess. Individual unique perspectives of the father/god. And so the perspective of all of these combined(past, present, future, and all those beyond this earth, and any known dimensions, way more than we could even imagine) is the father. All knowing.

The entire thing of Satan, end times and so on is that this is done through other means to try and mimic and become like god to people. I think it's safe to say it will be done with technology. All knowing from spying on people, all powerful with military, judges all and so on. But these things are needed because they are not truly the father/god.

And it's not just in 1 of us, it's in all of us. So when I say such things, I mean it in a way that is also true of you. And when people start to realize and understand it, then obviously you would want to treat those people better/well and such. It's not some selfish "serve and worship me, I am better than you" type thing. Such is to be manipulated because they obviously didn't see the entire truth if they can't see it beyond themselves.

So I think you are misunderstanding what is being said exactly.