Phoenix Lights --- My Story.....

Originally posted by observe50
Take this for what's it's worth but if you want a chance to catch a ship you have to slow it up. The ships move to fast for our camers and eyes and the only time you get them is when they slow it up.

If that's true, then we can ignore every witness report ever made!

Respectfully, I don't think that's the case. A bit like saying "you can't see a hummingbird's wings because they move too fast". Sometimes even hummingbirds have to stop, and it's a likelihood that even ET UFOs, if they did exist, would also do the same, for their own particular reasons obviously.

Weather or not aliens are visiting here, I could not say for sure, but I do know that people see things that are common every day objects, and mistake them for UFOs every day. A browse through this forum provides countless examples.

99% of cases can be explained by relatively common phenomena (those same phenomena mentioned above), and the remaining 1% are probably rare or phenomena that have not been described by science yet. If science can't describe what a person has seen, what chance does the person?

I don't think this particular case is different in that respect. All it needs is for some idiot to shout "ET", and before long, there is a cult following. This could actually work to the advantage of the military, since by keeping the public confused about black ops projects, and letting people think they have better tech than they actually have, is going to make other countries think twice about trying something.

Good Day Al, Et Al,

reply to post by Topol-M


Just in case you're not aware AL, I too sent you a U2U--check your "in box."

First and foremost I'd like to thank you for coming forward, as your information, is most important, not only on its face, but because of your position as the source.

I will try to address some issues and make some observations, and ask some questions etc:

Question: What "all" would precipitate an "alert klaxon" sounding?

Your account is interesting on many levels; however, one in particular is the timing; most "craft witnesses" were in the "eight o'clock hour";this is not to say that there weren't any in the "ten o'clock hour" (that weren't of flares), such as pilot Trig Johnston; his report is here.

Information is lacking for that time period, so your information is encouraging!

You wrote:

Because of the sheer amount of public scrutiny, focusing on the "flares" video and photos allowed for a convenient and plausible explanation. Few in the mainstream press talked about the "other" sightings that night, focusing on the large triangular craft that had passed over the Phoenix metro area, the outskirts of Tucson, and over Fort Huachuca before slipping in to Mexico.

The media "by there own admission" is a "visual animal," i.e., video trumps audio, and or anecdotes every time!

What occurred in the days that followed the event, and still to this day were many accounts from "eight o'clock" witnesses of "the craft" melded with the "ten o'clock flare video."

Ufologists for over a decade now have tried (in vain) to make that distinction to the media.

MUFON's investigator Richard Motzer was the first to notice the anomaly, he realized almost immediately, that although he was the recipient of what would later be established as "flare videos," there was a major discrepancy in the ratio of witnesses to the "large V-shaped craft" and the dropping of the flares. After the initial investigation he found out why--the majority of people on the valley floor could not see the flares "behind the Estrellas."

Many people "assume" that there are/were more witnesses to the "flare event," when in fact it's just the opposite by a long shot!

Separately, because of the efforts of a few of us to keep the event "alive," we have come across additional witnesses; for example we now have witness(es) (a TV news producer) as far south as Yuma, who reported the "large V-shaped craft moving in a "southwesterly direction," skirting the border between California and Mexico.

Question:

What time did you go on duty that day?

Kidflash, you wrote;

Occam's Razor: The military flares disappearing behind the mountains is the best explanation. More information is needed on the alleged earlier sightings.

You've invoked Occam's Razor, yet you've limited its parameters to "human explication"; given the subject matter methinks you need to broaden the parameters.

That said, in regards to the "flare videos," it's not just the "best explanation" by default of "Occam's Razor, they has been analyzed using scientific method, as well as conventional investigative research, and the evidence is "conclusive" that the videos in question are indeed flares.

As to why there are no "videos of the "eight o'clock craft" . . . the short answer is "there are! Contrarily, the reason there aren't any in the public domain is because the craft was "low and slow" and enormous in size.

Most "eight o'clock witnesses will tell you that they were mesmerized! That they "didn't move!" They couldn't believe there eyes! They were frozen! Given the low altitude the average person's observation time was less then two minutes, and don't forget that this was before "cell phone 'cameras.'"

In regards to conventional craft: although I personally leave that on the table, the preponderance of evidence suggests otherwise; first, there is no evidence that we have anything resembling what was described on March 13th, 1997 over Arizona, as well as the other "large V-shaped craft" sightings across the country in the entire month of March that year.

Remember too, that there is more to the event then just a sighting of a "super large V-shaped craft." There were "orb sightings," "vanishings," "visual distortions" around the craft(s) etc. Accordingly, "flying" a "top secret craft" that low over a populated area and in close proximity to civilian airports etc., doesn't seem prudent for such a vehicle and or program . . . not to mention being illegal.

Finally, and although I'm hesitant to repeat it, there was in fact a "psychic connection" with many of the witnesses; oddly one thing that was "missing" with every witness I'm aware of, was the emotion of "fear." Conversely, a sense of "wonderment" was in it's place. Also, some reported a sense of "communication with the object." I might add that these reports didn't come from "drunks on the park bench," but from very credible witnesses.

Cheers,
Frank

P.S. Almost forgot, the "Procter video" (grainy v-formation) in my view is of the A-10's from MANG also seen by Mitch Stanley.




[edit on 25-1-2009 by Frank Warren]

Look, I'm a skeptic in general, but the "flares" argument is ludicrous. Anyone hwo has ever dealt with air-launched flares knows these lights were not flares. Why? Flares.Don't.Hover. They drift down slowly if parachute flares, or just continue a parabola out and down if there is no chute. But they don't float in the same spot for a millisecond, much less for something like the minutes they're seen in the Phoenix Lights vid.

The supposed "flares" in the Phoenix Lights vids:
1. remained in place - they did not drift down as every parachute flare in the history of parachute flares has ever down;
2. the "flares" kept station - that is, they remained in precisely the same spot relative to the other "flares".

I don't know what they were, but they weren't flares.

From another site...

Peter Davenport from the USA based National UFO Reporting Center who claimed that he participated in a meeting with senior US government officials at which time they told him UFO's were very real and "did pose a threat". He was also told that during the famous "Phoenix Lights incident" over Arizona. that the US government declared a "Def Con 3" - a readiness for war!

Still looking for the full text sorry.

Mungo

Topol-M, what all do you know about C Button? I would be interested in what you might know or have heard. Thanks.

Topol-M

reply to post by Topol-M


Just a reminder that to check your in box for your U2U's.

Frank

I can not understand why this is not at the top of the thread. Has there ever been another sighting with as many witnesses as this one? We already know what the second show was, flares.. But i remember when it happened, and i remember reading tons of stuff on it, actual interviews with people who said they stood under this ship. Someone knows something, there is absolutely no logical explanation for what people were seeing going across 2 states thru 5 to 7 cities ..Something was up there that night and I would really like to know what it was..

Bud316

Originally posted by Frank Warren
Topol-M

reply to post by Topol-M

 

Just a reminder that to check your in box for your U2U's.

Frank

Frank,

Greetings, my sincerest apologies to yourself, and everyone else, have been very busy the last few weeks, and have now been down with the flu, so have not been on ATS for a while. I did type out a U2U reply, but when I attempted to submit it, was told I could not do so until I had 20 posts. I will send you an e-mail to the address you provided tomorrow. I will post a follow-up here in a few moments addressing further some of the questions posed.

Al

Originally posted by desert
Topol-M, what all do you know about C Button? I would be interested in what you might know or have heard. Thanks.

desert,

In all honesty, the only "C" button I know of is on my cell phone and keyboard....my apologies, but I do not know of what you are referring...

To Frank and everyone else that has replied, my sincerest thanks for your input and opinions. I do believe there is far more to be told about this story, I also believe it is the single most credible event in recent history, simply due to the overwhelming evidence that something did occur that evening......

Must also apologize, as I am under the weather at the moment, so will see how long I can keep typing til I have to lie down again.....

Regarding the reports of activity in the 8pm-9pm time frame, in all honesty, I was not present during that time, and the base showed no signs of outward alert. The only aircraft in the air at the time would have been a few F-16's returning from training missions. After 9pm, activity around the base picked up, mainly via air control radar, as reports of "something" in the skies were filtering in, however the scramble did not occur until much later.

In regards to Frank's question, an "Alert Klaxon" is basically an alert warning that goes off in ready-intercept quarters. Usually, most regular USAF installations in the US (especially those close to border areas), will have two aircraft in a "ready alert" posture, armed and ready to get airborne in a few minutes after the initial alarm is sounded. At Davis-Monthan in Tucson, F-16 units rotate in from around the nation (though a mainstay is the Montana ANG), taking over the alert role (prior to 9-11, this was mainly interdicting drug smuggling aircraft), Luke would also perform this role.

The alert aircraft being scrambled is not uncommon. Anytime a small aircraft that is unidentified violates southern Arizona airspace, and does not answer radio hails, we will scramble fighters to intercept and ID the "bogey". What was unusual about that night were the contact reports from the first flight, and a second scramble of two additional aircraft. This is simply unheard of in day to day intercepts. This was by no means one of those......

I don't know much about the "V" shaped aircraft sightings over Phoenix in the 8-9pm time frame, other than what I have read elsewhere. I did not witness this phenomenon personally, or talk with anyone who did. However, I do know that USAF aircraft were chasing down something that night they could not positively ID, either on radar, or visually. Massive electronic interference occurred, knocking out the F-16's BVR (Beyond Visual Range) capability, forcing the fighters to close at short-range. After brief contact, the "bogey" accelerated close to mach 2, and dashed south-southwest into Mexico.

The likelihood of this being a civilian aircraft is nil IMHO. The size of the object, electronic interference, and speed of mach 1.8 simply rules that out. If it was a military aircraft on a test run, then I would echo the sentiments of others, why test it over a major metropolitan area? Keeping the majority of the USAF in the dark, and causing a scramble to test stealth effects and jamming capabilities would make sense, however you can do that well away from a major population center, and be able to keep it quiet afterwards.

This.....well it simply does not have a rational explanation, and I am a VERY rational person. I don't go around looking for the unexplained, I deal with facts and tangibles. This event has left me mystified for nearly 12 years......

AL

reply to post by Topol-M


And a thank you to you, sir, for your information. Hope you are feeling better. Eat any peanut butter cookies lately; a friend got sick ("flu") a week ago after eating packaged pb cookies she bought at a store.

Would anybody know how often our military aircraft venture into Canadian/Mexican airspace?

Haha yes, C Button referred to USAF Captain Craig Button, who was said to have committed suicide about that time frame.

desert

[edit on 29-1-2009 by desert]

reply to post by Aliensun

you said

Somebody questioned why flares would be dropped while an actual "experience" was happening. The simple answer is that there are contingency plans for about every UFO event. If the flares were out of synch with where they were usually dropped, then that tells us they were ordered to drop where they did.

You have it right, air space containing fighters are tightly regulated and controlled, and there are no exceptions, ever.

Understand this one thing if nothing else, things with lights in the night sky are meant to be seen. You will not be able to see a fighter or a recon that fly "dark" at night with the naked eye. Same would be true of anyone wanting to fly without being seen that does not fear a reprimand by the FAA.

Flares, target balloons, chit, magnesium dust are among some of the tools used to grab your attention at night. If you are anywhere near a populated area and see these things in the night sky, there is something else going on in the proximity that is less luminous and far more important.

The OP’s recollections of the events concerning the lights at Phoenix are some of the best I’ve seen, although there is still some info being left out. Whether he is aware of that info and just not saying or simply not aware remains to be seen, but I encourage him to step up now if he does know anything more.

During this pivotal time of politics is his or anyone else’s best chance to speak out without being sanitized for doing so. The likelihood of the political holes remaining open for any length of time is remote at best.

reply to post by Topol-M


I would like to express my personal thanks to you for coming forward and sharing what you know and have learned about this with us, as you had resources and information that was not available to the average person trying to investigate this incident.

reply to post by desert


I used to work in Manning Park B.C. Two or three times a month we would see small groups of black hawks using the corridor to avoid radar as they came into Canada. The corridor through the mountains there provides inconspicuous routes to much of Western Canada so I'm sure what we were seeing was a particularly active region, but still its just a small part of the border so I'm sure its a fairly common activity.

Al,

reply to post by Topol-M


Thanks for the additional information, and I look forward to your e-mail.

Cheers,
Frank

reply to post by Topol-M


I would hope one day a report of a radar confirmation of an unknown object at the 8pm time frame comes out. It would boost this case, along with the Air Force scrambling jets to chase it, and put it in with the top ten or twenty cases. Hopefully, the Freedom of Information Act will come in handy, as President Obama has signed an Executive Order making it easier to access information.

I also want to thank you for having me go over this case and read all the details about it. I am still on the fence about what happened, but until such documents are released, know one will know what really took place above Phoenix that day.

Originally posted by kidflash2008
I am still on the fence about what happened, but until such documents are released, know one will know what really took place above Phoenix that day.

I'm guessing that what you mean by that is that you still don't believe that numerous people saw an actual craft at the earlier event, right? Because what else is the radar data gonna show you? That there was an unknown object there?

We have radar data from Stephenville for instance, and shows an unknown object where the witnesses said they saw it, and the Air Force still contests that what people saw were F-16s training.

reply to post by atsbeliever

I was just wondering if I am the only one who saw the small single engine airplane that is visable for 3 or 4 seconds by at least one of the many video camera's filming the lites.Was that pilot and possible passengers ever interviewed?

Originally posted by Coldfusion
reply to post by atsbeliever

 

I was just wondering if I am the only one who saw the small single engine airplane that is visable for 3 or 4 seconds by at least one of the many video camera's filming the lites.Was that pilot and possible passengers ever interviewed?

I'm not 100% positive but I remember reading where they interviewed a pilot and he said the craft was big enough to land on, pilot said it was huge, anyone remember reading this too? Was that real? Some people say they saw some kind of craft, not flares, and I believe them, i wish they would just come clean, i think were old enough to handle it.

bud316