Have All 3 Abrahamic Faiths Conspired to Defraud the Torah?

Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

UPFRONT Personal Disclosure: The OP has and maintains an NON MILITANT Anti-Abrahamic Faiths position.The OP is an ex[communicated]-Christian of the Jehovah's Witness Denomination. The OP's Biases on this Topic are all now fully transparent and exposed!

TOPIC: "Have All 3 Abrahamic Faiths Conspired to Defraud the Torah?"

Topic Disambiguation: What the OP means by...
"Have"= the OP is asking a Question on whether...
..."all 3 Abrahamic Faiths"=Judaism,Christianity & Islam...
..."Conspired to Defraud"=Sin by their provable actions vs..
..."the Torah"= the 5 books by Moses.(Gen,Exo,Lev,Num,Deut).

Explanation:- OP's Primary Argument: (All scriptures are listed and linked under Bibliography below.)
"That the Torah is the ONLY Valid Religious Canon* allowed!"
*=a collection or list of books of the Bible accepted as genuine and inspired.

Primary Proof for the OP's Primary Argument: Deut 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Secondary Proof for the OP's Primary Argument: Deut 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

OP's Secondary Argument:
"That the taint started with Joshua and never ended!"

Primary Proof for the OP's Secondary Argument: Joshua 24:26 (pls read all of Joshua chptr24 for full context especially as Joshua offers Israel to take after false GODS Joshua 24:14-15 therefor Joshua is condemned by Deut 12:29-31 specifically vrs 30 AND Deut 13:1-11 specifically vrs's 1-3) directly Contradicts the scriptures provided above.

Secondary Proof for the OP's Secondary Argument: The existence of all the other OT and NT books (apocrypha/deuterocanonicals included) as translated in the various versions of Bible (i.e. KJV,RSV,NIV,LITV,MKJV ect), The Judaic Oral Law and The Quoran/Koran, all being considered Canonical in nature (by their respective faiths), prove that the scriptures provided above are being broken repeatedly!

Are there any dissenting or contradictory Arguments and their respective Proofs:YES!
CAVEAT:-"What about the Prophet YHVH promised through Moses in the TORAH at Deut 18:15-22? Could he not of "added or taken away" from the law or at least be an author of the above Primary or Secondary Proofs for the OP's Secondary Argument?".

OP's reply: 1stly the OP has yet to fully ID this prophet but still fully contends that NO, he could not of "added or taken away" from the law specifically because of Deut 18:20-22 AND Deut 13:1-11 (specifically Deut 13:3 & 5) AND the existence of the Primary and Secondary Proofs (Canonical scriptures!) of the OP's Primary Argument.
2ndly Yes he could be an author, But must be vetted according to Deut 13:1-11 AND Deut 18:15-22. Example of a Failure is Ezekiel with his FALSE prophesy concerning the revival of Sodom and Gomorrah (Eze 16:55). At the moment the OP is leaning towards Ezra as who this prophet is but has not conclusively counted him IN or OUT as of yet! Please feel free to offer names and supply your proofs so as to DENY IGNORANCE!

FAQ: Is this really a conspiracy?
OP's response to FAQ: YES because those 2 scriptures are CONSTANTLY IGNORED/BROKEN DELIBERATELY or by OMISSION by THOSE WHO SHOULD KNOW BETTER! i.e. The authors AND translators of the (non-Torah) OT and NT books, the compilers of the Judaic Oral law and the authors of the Quoran/Koran. This has led to False teachings and the leading astray of YHVH's flock as foretold by YHVH and Moses at Deut 31:16-18 and Deut 31:24-29.

Bibliography: Here is a list of all the references used in the above OP.
Personally the OP uses the KJV, but the OP is quite willing to use any version you care to Notify them of.
Also the OP uses the freedictionary.com site for semantics only.
blueletterbible (KJV,RSV,NIV,+several other bible versions)
LITV site (+several other bible versions)
another LITV
Other biblical reference websites

Scriptures used:-
Deut 4:2
Deut 12:29-31
Deut 12:30
Deut 12:32
Deut 13:1-11
Deut 13:1-3
Deut 13:3 & 5
Deut 18:15-22
Deut 18:20-22
Deut 31:16-18
Deut 31:24-29
Joshua 24:1-33
Joshua 24:14-15
Joshua 24:26
Eze 16:55

Continued in next post.....

Continued from above post...

Bibliography: continued...

WikiLink for Sodom and Gomorrah.
WikiLink for Judaic Oral Law.
WikiLink for Muslims view on Moses.
Quote from 2nd Link "A.2 The Chapter of TaHa (20.9-97) specifically(20.60). Moses said to them (the magicians): “Woe to you! Do not invent lies about Allah, lest He destroy you by a punishment, and he who invents lies is doomed to fail”".


AND Here is a list of the references the OP uses below in the Thread RULES.

Exo 3:13-15
Deut 31:9 & 24


WikiLink for Maxims of Conversation
ATS/BTS Terms and Conditions

Thread RULES:
For the Purposes of this Thread YOU agree to the following A PRIORI conditions:...
[A Pure Given!] 1) That the Torah is infallible religious Cannon i.e... YHVH/GODS LAW!
[Exo 3:13-15] 2) That because of condition 1) that YHVH is Almighty GOD.
[Deut 31:9 & 24] 3) That because of conditions 1) and 2) that Moses is the sole author of the Torah.

You may Contend the following...
A) the version of the bible or Torah that the OP uses. Pls don't argue validity as the OP is fully aware of the KJV's taint. Just pick the version you want to use and the OP will comply.
B) the context of the scriptures that the OP provides. You must provide valid proof/s as to any contextual distortions the OP has made.
C) that the scriptures the OP provides are contradicted elsewhere in the Torah! You must provide valid proof/s as to the existence and validity of these scriptures if they exist.
D) the name of the prophet who fulfills the scriptural promise of one. You must provide valid proof/s as to why they directly fulfill those scriptures.
E) any provably invalid reference site provided by the OP.

You may NOT Contend any of the following, for purposes of this thread only!
A) any of the A PRIORI Conditions set out above.
B) that the OP,YHVH,Moses or the Torah are WRONG! UNLESS you provide valid Proof (i.e. Burden of Proof Required:-SEE BELOW!)
C) the validity of the blueletterbible website or any other Biblical or other website I provide as a reference UNLESS you can provide Credible proof that directly goes against their Validity as a reliable reference.

Acceptable Valid Burdens of Proof...
A) that the OP's proof/s was provided out of the context in which the Torah ment it. Professional Semantic reductionism required.
B) scripture from within the Torah that contradicts the OP's scriptural proof/s. Valid Torah scripture required.
C) Other proof/s of the promised prophet from elsewhere. Full and accurate historical account required.
D) 3 well vetted mainstream experts analysis and report's detailing the invalidity of such reference sites as credible and reliable.

ALL Maxims of Conversation and ATS/BTS terms and conditions shall apply.

In Closing Personal Disclosure: If you are going to believe in a Book of Laws then one had better uphold the least important of those laws as much as one upholds the most important laws! OR what's the point at all? Hypocrisy? maybe! Conspiracy? Definitely!

Now you know you're opening up a can of worms here. But I like the post, and agree with what you are saying. I'll be watching this post, and comment later.

The religions in and of themselves and certain of leaders.. sure, most likely.

The people? depends.

Kind of a pretty broad question if you ask me.

I know that G.d is perfectly capable of opening the door of understanding outside the Torah and the Tanakh, so I trust Him to be able to discern who is ready to receive their teachings and where they should receive them from.

But in all honesty.... the Torah, though I am in the knowledge learning process to convert to Judaism, was not given to a man named Moses on a mountain.

It was written by Scribes while in Babylonian captivity... so, well... ya get my point. I know G.d and though He uses the Scriptures to confirm things that He teaches me, that is not where the knowlege comes from. It comes from Him.

[edit on 12-1-2009 by justamomma]

Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

Explanation: Thanks notyme67. I'm glad you like it. Please star and flag as you see fit. Oh and btw..."You need a nice big open can of worms if you want to catch some big fish!".

Now Thanks also to justamomma for their input. 1stly justamomma replies and I quote "The people? depends." and I ask in response "Depends on What?".
2ndly justamomma then states and again I quote "Kind of a pretty broad question if you ask me."...And I agree that yes it is a broad question ONLY because its an extremely large population and varying demographically broadbased Conspiracy NUMBERING IN THE BILLIONS! Please reread the OP concerning FAQ and then please, would you care to refute(proof required..see thread rules) or endorse the OP's position?
3rdly justamomma then forwards this information and I quote "I know that G.d is perfectly capable of opening the door of understanding outside the Torah and the Tanakh, so I trust Him to be able to discern who is ready to receive their teachings and where they should receive them from."....And I inquire "How Exactly Do You Know This Is So?" Please provide credible evidence to back up these extraordinary claims!
4th and finally justamomma tests the bounds of the OP Thread Rules! with their posting and I quote "But in all honesty.... the Torah, though I am in the knowledge learning process to convert to Judaism, was not given to a man named Moses on a mountain.

It was written by Scribes while in Babylonian captivity... so, well... ya get my point. I know G.d and though He uses the Scriptures to confirm things that He teaches me, that is not where the knowlege comes from. It comes from Him."...And I gently remind them to please reread the OP concerning the RULES and I quote the OP here for convenience..."For the Purposes of this Thread YOU agree to the following A PRIORI conditions:...
[A Pure Given!] 1) That the Torah is infallible religious Cannon i.e... YHVH/GODS LAW!
[Exo 3:13-15] 2) That because of condition 1) that YHVH is Almighty GOD.
[Deut 31:9 & 24] 3) That because of conditions 1) and 2) that Moses is the sole author of the Torah."
AND...
"You may NOT Contend any of the following, for purposes of this thread only!
A) any of the A PRIORI Conditions set out above."

Personal Disclosure: Once again thanks for partaking in my thread.

Edited to fix emoticon problem.

[edit on 12-1-2009 by OmegaLogos]

reply to post by OmegaLogos


I read all of joshua 24, and Joshua is not telling them to follow other gods. He tells them all that God has done for them, what God has to say about it, then tells them to serve the Lord. He then tells them that if they won't serve the Lord, serve who they like, but as for he and his house, they will serve the one, the only, Lord. Joshua gave them all the reasons they should serve the true God, not false idols, and then basically said "if you guys want to be stupid, be stupid, but not me. I know our past and His might, and I get it. So my mind is already made up." After this, everyone says "God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods", showing that they got what Joshua was saying.

and as for the books that are in the bible, Jesus himself gave authority to the books written by moses and the prophets. search your blueletter bible for moses and the prophets and you will find a multitude of verses to support this. judges, chronicles, kings, etc all give us a record of the history of God's people, and help to show the line of Israel and the geneology of Jesus. As far as the NT is concerned, in the end of John Jesus tells the disciples that the Holy Spirit is coming, and will remind them of the things he taught them, and that they are to preach the gospel to all nations and teach them His ways, and in another verse... you will have to search for it, Jesus tells them that it will lead them to all truth.

Explanation: Unfortunately ... this is about Joshua and not the people.

Here is why ...

¶ And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God, and took a great stone, and set it up there under an oak, that [was] by the sanctuary of the LORD.


Jos 24:27 And Joshua said unto all the people, Behold, this stone shall be a witness unto us; for it hath heard all the words of the LORD which he spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness unto you, lest ye deny your God.

Please note ...

Primary Proof for the OP's Primary Argument: Deut 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Secondary Proof for the OP's Primary Argument: Deut 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

Personal Disclosure: There was no need to do this at all!! God had already sealed the deal! Joshua screwed with that! Anybody Care to refute?

reply to post by OmegaLogos


Explanation: Hmmmm?

There are 600 members logged into AboveTopSecret.com right now...

Personal Disclosure: The silence is AWEFULLY suspicious!

Explanation: Bumped to help generate ad revenue!

Personal Disclosure: Enjoy!

This person thinks it odd that the OP would refer to themselves in the third person.

I will reply but you will have to give me some time to digest and go through all the scriptures and I am also consulting my Torah adviser too. I would like to start with a few observations and your rules..

Lets use the Hebrew since you want to keep this to torah shall we? I have a huge issue with you calling Islam a Abrahmic Faith. There is no evidence to support this and their so called Holy Book refutes nearly everything about the Torah, Haftarah and Brit Chadashah. I will simply say they are a cult of death and leave it at that. So if Islam destroys torah I would say UH DUH!

Moshe was not the "Author" of Torah but more clearly the Editor. That is to say all the authors through the generations would have written down their generations on tablets or scrolls, these would have made it on the Ark with Noah and continued on and them Moshe would have put them together the first time and wrote his parts which are after Genesis. I will accept your semantic of Author though and use that rule in my responses...

I can tell you now that every Prophecy of the Prophet to come was fulfilled by Yahshua in about 33 a.d. to a tee and on every point. He was Yahshua Ha Meschiach and he reigns even now with YHVH until his time comes.

I look forward to this exchange with you.


OOOPS. 30 A.D. my bad

OL thank you sir for linking me this , i am going to have a good look at it after i stop talking with you in ATS chat about alster crowley lol

reply to post by OmegaLogos

You may Contend the following...
A) the version of the bible or Torah that the OP uses. Pls don't argue validity as the OP is fully aware of the KJV's taint. Just pick the version you want to use and the OP will comply.
B) the context of the scriptures that the OP provides. You must provide valid proof/s as to any contextual distortions the OP has made.
C) that the scriptures the OP provides are contradicted elsewhere in the Torah! You must provide valid proof/s as to the existence and validity of these scriptures if they exist.
D) the name of the prophet who fulfills the scriptural promise of one. You must provide valid proof/s as to why they directly fulfill those scriptures.
E) any provably invalid reference site provided by the OP.

Genesis 3

14 So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,

“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

The heel in question is the end of the loaf. What is at the end of each side of the Hebrew Adam Kadmon? Adam of course. Who is the first and last Adam, the first image of God?

1 Corinthians 15

22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the heavenly man.

Only pride can blind your eyes to this. Let me show you who the loaf is.

1 Corinthians 12

12 Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by[c] one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14 Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

1 Corinthians 10

14 Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

The idol above is the one we make by separating our own self from that of the whole. We are one body, yet many. Christ is the Father of mankind.

Colossians 1

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Adam is the heel on either end of the loaf of mankind, the first soul that is the Image of God Himself.

Genesis 1:27

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

Genesis 1 is the Image created by Elohim. Genesis 2 is YHVH rendering that Image into Earth and Humanity. God is raising His Son. You see error in the other books because you are seeing the LORD raised by God. When was God pleased with the LORD? When he was baptized as a man and suffered for our sins. When he gives rather than takes. You are that Son and so are ALL of us that are ONE in the same loaf. The heel crushes the error within us. God is One. So are we.

Don't hound the Son because of the error. Why?

Job 19

25 I know that my redeemer[c] lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet[e] in[f] my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!
28 “If you say, ‘How we will hound him,
since the root of the trouble lies in him,[g]’
29 you should fear the sword yourselves;
for wrath will bring punishment by the sword,
and then you will know that there is judgment.

reply to post by justamomma


I applaud your frankness in admitting the Chumash (Torah) was a later collection of material redacted by scribes and schools of thought. I wish more religious people were as open-minded as you.

reply to post by theindependentjournal


Islam is an Abrahamic faith. Saying it isn't because it is in Arabic is like saying Christianity is not one because Jesus spoke Aramaic and the gospels are in Greek. Actually Islam is a lot more like Judaism than Christianity is. Christianity has more affinities with nature and mystery cults more than Judaism.

At least in Islam they have a religion like Judaism. To claim a god condemned his own people to suffer because of a law he knew they could not fully follow but saved gentiles by an easy "believe and be free of sin" because I/my son died for you, means your god has pyschological issues. Islam would make more sense because it would be like: "As for my chosen I have given a Torah, I will give a teaching or law for gentiles."

Islam is a religion of death? The Bible abounds in genocide. One can argue that religion in general is conducive to hatred, misogyny, and genocide of the "other."

Yes, Yes and Yes.
However monotheism stole all the good ideas from Dharmic, Taoist and Pagan/Tribal ideas.
Who stole the ideas from Humans who developed ceremony around taking psychoactive substances.

Unfortunatley none of this matters a jot as it all simply the musings of men with adenda.

The true word of God is encoded in the very essence of the universe and the energy that resides within it; freely available for all to see and wonder.

Perversely logic suggests if we can live a life as suggested by the imagined "Gods": which is one of virtue and peace, we will evolve for long enough to understand the Universe.

You cannot nitpick single English words in translated Scriptures as "gotcha" moments. It has to be done from the original language, where much like English words often have multiple meanings. Even then taking a single verse as a stand alone statement without the surrounding context is misleading.