Boy 'killed father after 1,000 smacks'

reply to post by rcwj75

The topic of this thread is:

Boy 'killed father after 1,000 smacks'

The personal attacks/commentary need to end now. If you have a personal beef, take it to u2u, but please do not derail the thread by attacking fellow members.

[edit on 30-11-2008 by Canadianduder]

Please discuss the topic and not your personal opinion of other people's parenting.




If the bickering continues, the thread will be closed for 24 hours.


[edit on 30-11-2008 by Byrd]

I am not fond of children so I wisely chose not to have any. However, we are animals, take a lesson from the animal kingdom.

Scare the crap out of them when they are SMALL (grab, threaten, etc...) without actually HURTING them. Then they will grow up like the majority of us (over 35) that have a fear of "going too far" when it comes to our parents, but without any of the actual trauma. Teach them the concept of submission (radical, but yet reality!). The concept of (oh wow, this may not be PC) RESPECT for AUTHORITY!

It works. The role of parents is not to be a "friend" but to be a teacher, a rolemodel, one that prepares their offspring for survival in the real world. In the real world the bad guy (sociopathic boss, street mugger, etc...) is not going to "discuss their feelings" before excercising their power over them.


[edit on 30-11-2008 by Sonya610]

It's good to see a little old fashioned street justice, if it can be called that, but it is a shame to see an 8 year old murder 2 people. It really shows you the power of guns when a child can kill 2 adults with a rifle. Wouldn't have happened if he had tried with a knife, eh? Maybe, maybe not.

reply to post by stumason


Yes I am also an 'Englishman' so know arrogance very well, we grow up on it don't we Stu, or our own very special Brit version of it: pomposity! [we leave the raw arrogance to the French, they do it with so much more 'je ne sais quois']

You drew an awful lot of assumptions from my very limited post.

Bottom line: when your 'less radical' attempts at manipulation don't work you resort to violence to coerce less physically powerful individuals to conform to your wishes.

That doesn't mean you don't love your kids or your kids don't love you.

However, the message you're teaching is 'might is right'.

If you're ok with that, then I have no more comment.

PS. I didn't infer my kids were angels, just not little turds as you suggested they must be

Originally posted by RogerT
However, the message you're teaching is 'might is right'.
If you're ok with that, then I have no more comment.

Uhhh...in the real world Might is in fact RIGHT. I am not judging, some raise sheep, rumor has it they are tasty. Teaching them to realize might, and weigh the odds of survival, is a lot better than teaching them the authoritative figure will discuss how they feel, and discuss their opinions, before acting.

[edit on 30-11-2008 by Sonya610]

reply to post by Sonya610


But isn't that an aspect of society that we are wanting to change?

What is civilisation if not the respect of all humanity regardless of their physical prowess or ability to harm or control another through force?

Change begins with the one in the mirror.

Ok but how do you make a 3 year old that can barely talk understand society? When children reach a certain age then you can try to reason with them, but when they're too young they don't understand reasoning, or delayed punishment. You have to do something NOW so they understand the behavior is wrong. My stepneice's mother would sit there and yell at her, she'd keep doing it, and she would say "One....Two.....Please stop!" and nothing would change. Reasoning with a 3 year old doesn't work.

pretty ironic that his father taught him violence is how you resolve issues..

Boy what a sick world some people live in! To bad the kid can't get TBS over at the states, and know he has to go to some juvi meat house...
How did the slap counting?

From 10 November, New York Times:

www.nytimes.com...












[edit on 30/11/08 by paperplanes]

Have you watched his interrogation? This boy sat there and lied repeatedly to the police. They asked if he had shot a gun recently and he said no, then it changed to maybe once or twice. He may not have understood death and the finality, but he knew enough to lie to the police. I'm sorry, but if he's 8 and already lying to people that says something about him. The fact that he called the second victim back into the house before shooting him says that he planned this to me. Most of the abuse cases I have read about they kill the person directly responsible for the abuse, and maybe their children to keep it from happening to them. They don't call in someone else that's standing around that had nothing to do with it and kill them. So unless the second victim was involved with abuse, he knew somewhat what he was doing.

I haven't been able to locate any retractions of the information stated in the NY Times article. I'll post a reply if anything is found on that front.

The calculated way in which the boy killed both men is very disturbing. In my opinion, the two biggest possibilities here are that the boy was truly suffering a level of abuse with which he no longer found tolerable, or he is suffering from a mental disorder. In the interrogation tapes released on the news, he seems like a normal, sweet young child. Very soft-spoken and immature rather than the mature and cold individual we would anticipate from reading of his alleged actions.

Also, I feel it necessary to comment on the "no evidence of abuse" statement by the police chief. There are sundry ways to abuse a child without leaving a mark. Molestation is often called the "perfect crime" due to the fact that, as someone once remarked, "you don't dust a child's body for fingerprints". It becomes a matter of the child's word against the alleged perpetrator. Emotional abuse would also fall under the "he-said-she-said" category. And yet further, you can strike a child lightly enough to avoid lasting marks but hard enough or, as is sometimes the case, frequently enough to cause emotional trauma. I think this should be taken into account whenever you hear the "no evidence of abuse" argument.

We just don't know enough about the lead-up and the actual events. Any conclusive judgment now is, I believe, premature.


[edit on 30/11/08 by paperplanes]

Originally posted by Zaphod58
Ok but how do you make a 3 year old that can barely talk understand society? When children reach a certain age then you can try to reason with them, but when they're too young they don't understand reasoning, or delayed punishment. You have to do something NOW so they understand the behavior is wrong. My stepneice's mother would sit there and yell at her, she'd keep doing it, and she would say "One....Two.....Please stop!" and nothing would change. Reasoning with a 3 year old doesn't work.

This is for another thread I think.

The short answer is that babies are genetically programmed to socialise, just like all species. Their survival depends upon it. They don't need to be beaten into submission

However, there is also an instinct known as 'counter-will' which is almost as vital.

Once you begin to understand and empathise with the inherent motivations of a child (or any human), it is not necessary to resort to violence. Often, listening to their communication is all that it takes to have them conform.

Originally posted by RogerT
This is for another thread I think.

The short answer is that babies are genetically programmed to socialise, just like all species. Their survival depends upon it. They don't need to be beaten into submission

However, there is also an instinct known as 'counter-will' which is almost as vital.

Once you begin to understand and empathise with the inherent motivations of a child (or any human), it is not necessary to resort to violence. Often, listening to their communication is all that it takes to have them conform.

Spanking a child once or twice on the butt, that has been acting out is hardly "beating them into submission".

You're right, I've seen just how well "listening to their communication" works with kids. Just go to any mall or large store and watch them running around screaming, and their parents pleading with them to behave, and you can see how well that works.

It's impossible to justify someone's actions by the standards of our own.

The real shame to me is that this child likely did not break the chain of abuse, but it will possibly be made much harder by the time the system is done with him.

With the list, this could qualify as premeditated murder.

Hey All,
This thread is rife with what I would consider people with absolutely no idea what systematic abuse is all about, nor what options would really be available to a kid in that position.

Now for a minute, lets look at the math. The kid, didn't start counting out of the womb, so numbers wouldn't be available until he was 4-5 we'll say 4 for the benefit of the doubt. so that 1460 days he could be counting. (Probably less)

Things have really come a long way in the western world when it comes to people believing in what a kid might say about being abused. However this was not always the case. In many instances child welfare will try to return the child to their parents after some kind of investigation. (after a week or so, the kids are often returned) If you were a kid, and being abused, one of many fears you might have would be being returned to your parent where you would expect revenge would be taken out on you.

The other choice you might have, would be to be taken to a "foster home" where a whole new world of abuse would be coming your way. (children at school do talk, so there is the possibility that this kid would have an idea what might happen.)

As was previously mentioned, there are many different kinds of abuses, emotional, physical and sexual are the most common. Who's to say that this kids dad wasn't passing him around with his friend? Of course we haven't heard if this was the case, the core point isn't the abuse, it's the fact the kid acted and shot both of these guys. However, something made this kid want to shoot both of them.

As is the norm with child cases, we will probably not ever see most of the evidence, however I suspect that having personally grown up in the system, coming from a seriously abusive situation that this kid felt there was really no other way. I often though, growing up that killing the abuser would resolve my issues, however my greatest fear at the time was that he might survive. So of course I didn't act on it. My best day as a kid, was finally being taken away for good, even though I knew that I'd be fighting for everything for the next 6-7 years but to me, that was the lessor of two evils.

Now, in my case, I managed to turn my life into something, I own a business have a successful marriage of 20 years, and two daughters that have a very good life. It might be my memories of my childhood that cause me to treat my family well, but I think I would have regardless. Sadly, i am indeed the exception to the rule. Many of the kids I grew up with are dead, on drugs or alcohol or in jail.

So, should the kid have shot them, probably not. Did he think he has a different recourse? Again probably not. I did see the video of the interrogation, and I have no doubt that this kid would lie. Often kids will lie when they are in trouble, or when they feel that they will get in even more trouble by exposing the truth. To a kid, being abused is "normal" until they find out it's really not. Will they blame him for the abuse? How would he know if they would, and given some of the comments on this board, I have no doubt some people would blame him. In fact, some of you already have.

So all I'm really saying in this case is it is unfortunate he shot those two guys, but given what I know people are capable of, perhaps it was just.

Until you have experienced an abusive spouse, parent or stranger you won't really know how far you would go to make it stop. Food for thought.

Thanks for reading
..Ex

Originally posted by RogerT
But isn't that an aspect of society that we are wanting to change?

Living in society and changing it are two different things. In the future perhaps all wolves will be vegetarians, but to raise lambs with that expectation would be a huge mistake.

I see many people using their children as a special "companion and friend" for their own pleasure instead of being what their children so desperately need -- parents.

Originally posted by v3_exceed
Hey All,
This thread is rife with what I would consider people with absolutely no idea what systematic abuse is all about, nor what options would really be available to a kid in that position.

But again, you seem to be very accepting about the child's own definition of 'abuse' at a time when there doesn't appear to be much information on this at all. All we know is that the boy kept a tally. What actually constituted a tally mark in the boy's reckoning, we don't actually know at this moment, never mind whether it is enough for us to declare it as abuse, systematic or otherwise.

Whilst obviously child abuse does exist, the way some children speak, to deny them anything from watching television, refusing to buy them a new computer game or wanting to stay out especially late is tantamount to child cruelty on a Dickensian scale. The fact is that until we have more information we have no objective perspective on this. The boy could turn out to have been horrifically abused or he could turn out to be a demanding, unreasonable brat who always wanted his own way and any time he didn't get it or threw a tantrum because he didn't get it was a serious black mark grudge. He could even turn out to have serious wiring problems 'upstairs'. We just don't know yet.

Until we know otherwise, it's all speculation and that's not really firm enough to build some kind of moral high ground on it.

It’s about time someone mentioned the “ME” Generation.
This ME virus is spreading around like a cancer infecting everyone it touches.

I blame the media in part, They have taken the values that made people stronger and more disciplined and countered it with passive resistance.
The older generation used to consider the big picture, how a persons actions would effect society as a whole.
How can a person could be a respectable member of society was important.

The Me generations says” I have been mildly offended now I shall kill you.”. Honest to God if it wasn’t for the fact These people have shown time and time again their sincerity I would think they were brain damaged.

The fact is kids are not being disciplined as much these days, and it shows.
So if there is any doubt to how effective spanking is there it is it’s sitting on your face.

Fewer harsh reprimands equates to a larger increase in the undisciplined.

Far all those posters continuously mentioning the 1000 smacks, which are not, BLOWS, PUNCHES, or WATER BOARDING. I ask this question. Would it still be abuse if it happened once?
If the dad smacked his sons hand for something dangerous, after which he explained why he “smacked” him and explained that he loved his son and wanted him safe. Would that still be abuse?

It states that the child was doing ok in school which does not fit the characteristics of neglect or physical abuse. Figure that one out.

Also people please stop trying to use this thread as an anti gun advocacy site.
If I hear “that really shows you the power of guns “ again I will literally die from shock