Boy 'killed father after 1,000 smacks'

Why didn't he run away? There are organizations out there that would have helped him. I'm sure if he went to the Salvation Army, or even Safe Harbour they would have done something. A teacher, a friend's parent he trusted, if his grandparent's knew this was coming why didn't they do something? Did they try, did they call police, offer to take the boy?

reply to post by wylekat


I‘m sorry for your bad experience as a child, it is unfortunate
In this case however I don’t know for certain if the 8 year old suffered what you suffered.

You say he needs to be medically examined, and as is CPS policy after such an event he most likely did.
Along with a thorough interview.

Although investigators initially said they thought the boy might have suffered severe physical or sexual trauma, they have found no evidence of abuse, said Roy Melnick, the police chief in St. Johns, Ariz., where the shootings occurred.
An investigation found no evidence that the boy had had disciplinary problems at school or shown signs that he was troubled, Chief Melnick said. “That’s what makes this case somewhat puzzling,” he said, adding that the court had ordered a psychological evaluation for the boy. “Our goal is to get him some help.”

Apparently there was no sign of sexual assault in this case and as mentioned no prior abuse record.

I think he just had a pretty stern dad, and like the doctor says in the article this seems to be a case of immaturity on the boys part.
I think it is important that people not over look that fact.

Be skeptical sure but have an open mind here there seems to be more than meets the eye in this case.

reply to post by Sonya610


I'm not denying that there are a great deal of kids around with anti-social behaviour, and some of those kids have parents who seem to have no idea about 'discipline'.

I am challenging the concept that 'spanking' is a necessary part of child raising, or even as you suggest, using fear as a manipulation tool.

Yes, this is the real world, and bullies exist and appear to dominate virtually every aspect of life. I know my children will encounter bullying and violence out there. My job as parent is to show them that it doesn't have to be that way - there are alternatives to violence.

It's the road less travelled. A clip round the ear is much easier.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
And there you go categorizing me without even knowing anything about what kind of parent I am. You have NO CLUE, but since I believe in spanking someone I automatically resort to violence.

I didn't say automatically.

Are you saying that spanking is not an act of violence?

By the way, your avatar is a 'fighter' jet and your byline is thread-'killer', so yes, my best guess is that violence is in there somewhere.

I judge that you are not such a good listener by the way you seem to half read my posts and then derive a bunch of inaccurate assumptions, which then cause you to react violently. I only have your posts to go on, is that an unfair assessment?

Originally posted by Daedalus
And that's how it ought to be done. communication is key.....if you're gonna hit a kid, you need to have that as a last resort, and then you need to make sure you've throughly communicated to them why that was necessary. Make sure they understand why what they did was so bad that ir required that type of response...this is the only way they can learn from it.

What do you think they learn from it?

One thing they learn is this:
when someone does something you don't like, and you are stronger than they are, then use violence against them when communication fails to get you what you want.
extrapolate that lesson:
this person is physically stronger than me, but I have a stick/knife/gun/bomb/plane/ship/army that tilts the balance of power in my favor, therefore I can now use violence to get what I want.

One more thing they learn:
If I am more powerful, what I want must be good/right and what they want is wrong/bad

"I cannot stop my children from doing what they want to do, I can only make them wish they hadn't"

[edit on 1/12/08 by RogerT]

Originally posted by snowen20
Also people please stop trying to use this thread as an anti gun advocacy site.
If I hear “that really shows you the power of guns “ again I will literally die from shock

Originally posted by projectvxn
First blaming guns never solved a crime, neither did characterizing North Americans in the light you shine. A murder is a murder regardless of the weapon you use. But that doesn't matter because it's easier to blame American culture, isn't it?

Well, the "anti-gun advocacy" only came after another poster made the comment:

then he excercised his 2nd amendment right and he took up arms against his attackers, whom he slew in self-defense. God bless him. If this was England, or another disarmed country - he never would have had a chance.

So, people can make pro-gun comments in the thread but not anti-gun comments in response?

Also, you might have noticed that this thread hasn't really devolved in to some pro or con debate on gun ownership. The other thread on the original story might have but this one hasn't and to be honest, these recent comments seem to be perpetuating this as I'm not aware of guns actually being an issue over the last few pages of this thread.

Originally posted by v3_exceed
My post wasn't meant to justify this particular case, but to point out that there are signs which lean a certain way.

Well rereading your last post, I have to disagree. You do talk quite specifically about this particular case as well as general cases

Keeping a tally at all, is a very good sign that this kid felt the smacking may not have been justified, or was in excess.

But as I and others have pointed out, children aren't always the best judge at what is "justified". The slightest affront can be interpreted as "excessive" with some kids. How often have you grounded a child or denied them television or pocket money and they've honestly thought it fair? If not yourself (as there seems to be a lot of people on these boards with perfect relationships with their kids) you must surely be aware of at least some children like that?

(it was mentioned often that 1000 smacks over 8 years wasn't excessive, so I pointed out that he would not have been able to count out of the womb. I didn't say his count was accurate or what constituted a smack.)

And again, who knows what this tally constituted? We just don't know what actions actually resulted in the tally. People are making a lot of assumptions about this.

The killing of the guest, makes me think there was more to the guest than has been mentioned, and the police interrogation should not have been performed in the fashion it was. None of which provides enough information to make a judgment, but it is food for thought.

The 'guest' is confusing as there are reportsthat Timothy Romans actually rented a room at the house. To me there's nothing that really suggests that Romans has any significant part to play here. It might turn out to be that he had, but at the moment, unless you can point to something in an existing story you're basing that on personal hunch. As I've already pointed out to another assuming poster, I'm open to new information on this case, so can you provide any URLs?

There is no high moral ground here. If you have to smack your 8 year old, you have already lost. I did not teach my kids that no one has the right to smack them by smacking them. There are alternatives.

I'd suggest reading this paragraph again. I'm astonished that you don't think you're claiming a high ground here.

Something that wasnt mentioned in this article but was mentioned in the US press is that on the night before, the smackng the boy got for not bringing home his school work, it didnt just happen once

Apparently the kid was spanked 5 seperate times for that one offense throughout the course of the evening before the murder, from what the US press has been saying however I cant find the link to this now.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
And we all know that kids would NEVER exagerate or blatantly lie about something like this. I've seen kids sit there and tell people with tears in their eyes about how their parents grabbed them by the arm and pulled them around and left bruises, when in actuality they fell and bruised their arm, and were pissed at their parents and wanted to get them in trouble. How many times have kids come home and lied about something a teacher did or someone at school did because they knew it would cause trouble?

This is what I don't understand about so many of the responses on this thread, and I've said similar myself.

People seem to be very accepting of the veracity of the boy's story and taking it very literally. Yet they're basing their belief on very, very little. We know he kept a tally and that's about it. We don't know how accurate this tally was and we don't know what actions resulted in a tally mark. There's just not enough evidence to say one way or the other at the moment.

I thought this site was about 'Denying Ignorance' not 'Let's Assume!'

reply to post by Merriman Weir



"then he excercised his 2nd amendment right and he took up arms against his attackers, whom he slew in self-defense. God bless him. If this was England, or another disarmed country - he never would have had a chance."


Next time you quote me, please source that quote to the author -

I was responding to an anti-gun advocate who was reported to the moderators for his off-topic comment - But it would not be like you to reference context or post honestly.... your terminological and chronological inexactitude is not helping with the credibility of your posts - which thus far, are grossly lacking in the prerequisites that would have made them effective rebuttals.

You have already made your anti-gun stance quite clear. There is no need to attack those who have opposing views and who - unlike yourself - do not incessantly advocate those views as they are off-topic....

[edit on 1-12-2008 by Canadianduder]

Originally posted by freecell
I would like you all to know, Vince was a friend of mine. He had sole physical custody of his son from the divorce. I was also a police officer in the town of St. Johns. As far as I know, there was never even a mention of any type of abuse during, before or after the divorce.

This is one aspect of the case that is barely being addressed here. The father had full custody of the child after the divorce. Now, I'm having to assume that this is similar to Britain in that if the father is to be given full custody in a divorce then that man's background and general family life is going to have a fine tooth comb run through it. Whatever investigation there was doesn't seem to have turned-up anything significant.

Originally posted by Canadianduder
reply to post by Merriman Weir

 

Next time you quote me, please source that quote to the author -

Apologies. I didn't think it was necessary to attribute your quote as I wasn't making the "he said, she said" thing a personal one by placing any poster's name directly to the quote. Merely pointing out that any anti-gun comments merely came as a response to a pro-gun comment.

I've certainly nothing to gain or even hide from not accrediting you with those words. I'm sorry you seem to take it as such an affront.

I was responding to an anti-gun advocate who was reported to the moderators for his off-topic comment - But it would not be like you to reference context or post honestly.... your terminological and chronological inexactitude is not helping with the credibility of your posts - which thus far, are grossly lacking in the prerequisites that would have made them effective rebuttals.

Really? That's funny because reading through that first page, there's no record of an 'off-topic' post at all. I make the OP which referenced the original stories 'pro and anti-gun' slant but states quite clearly that gun ownership isn't really the issue here:

Originally posted by Merriman Weir
Obviously, things like gun safety and responsibility were big issues for a lot of posters. However, it looks like child discipline was the real crux of the matter.

Then, Captain Caveman posts, and then you post your post containing your pro-gun comment. So where is the "off-topic comment". Normally, moderators tend to replace content with the big 'Off Topic Post' graphics. It's hard not to notice them.

So where is my "chronological inexactitude" here? You do seem to be the first one to post anything regarding guns on the thread outside of my stating quite clearly that guns aren't the issue here.

You have already made your anti-gun stance quite clear. There is no need to attack those who have opposing views and who - unlike yourself - do not incessantly advocate those views as they are off-topic....

[edit on 1-12-2008 by Canadianduder]

Well, considering I'd pointed out that guns weren't the crux of the matter and then you make a post about him exercising his right to defend himself with a gun, I ask you, who is actually off-topic then?

[edit on 1-12-2008 by Merriman Weir]

My take on this is the parents probably had it coming! Good for him I wished I had the courage to do mine in. Those people that where my parents nearly kill me I was beating almost daily until I turn fourteen years old. I have a sister who also was beaten badly, one day I told her, I cannot take anymore of this, and they are going to kill me. I told her that I should have done them in while they where a sleep. However I didn’t I kept running away from home. Then one day I was in Family Court in front of a Judge who wanted to send me away to Juvenal camp for bad kids. My mother had told a bunch of lies about me to the judge saying things like, he will not listen to us when we tell him to do things. He will not do his chores around the house, he talks ugly about us, he has a fowl mouth he will not do his schoolwork, he will not bath he tears his clothes all the time.

Now for the truth! My parents where dog breeders and had their own kennel and had a grooming business as well. I was their kennel boy not a son I was beaten every day with a horsewhip, my mother like calling it a thrashing, she would inspect the dog kennel and always found something wrong like the dog knock his water dish over, that’s a thrashing, like the dog just pee in his cage, that was a thrashing. She would insist that I never clean the cage to begin with, just little thing like that was all she needed, you would think in fourteen years that I would have figured out how to clean a dog kennel and avoid a thrashing. However, you can see the picture. As far as my schoolwork I made straight F how could I learn at school when I was terrified to go home? I was scared to death of my parents back then. My parents told me over and over if I told anyone about our business at home and the beatings they would kill me and buried me in the back yard in the woods. They said, they would call the police and tell them I had ran away, it wouldn’t be to long the police will not find you, and eventually you will be forgotten.
The clothes I wore to school where my mother’s clothes that she threw away her rags I am a boy and this is what I have to were to school and be ridiculed it was sicken. My parents did not spend money on me and would not buy me clothes, I will let you all know my parents where not poor people they were middle clash trash! My mother was born and raised in England and my father was born and raised in Chicago he was in the Air Force twenty years. Therefore, we traveled a lot back and forth to England to the States. Anyway back to my story, right before I turned 13 years old my parents threw me out of the house, they bought an old trailer and put it in the back yard, it had holes all the way through the floors the trailer did not have any electricity hook up nothing. Therefore, I froze in the winter and burn up during the summer time not to mention there was no running water. She was right about me not bathing how could I.

That day in that courtroom, my life was changed forever so far my mother had the judge fooled she had him eating right out her hand. The judge kept telling me that he really didn’t know what to do with me but to send me away. That is when I gathered enough courage, stood up out of my seat, ripped my shirt off, and turn around so the judge could see my back! Before the judge said anything my mother jump right out of her seat screaming at the judge that I did that to myself yes sirrree your honor he dose that to him self for attention ( ya, right!) The judge ask me, son who did this to you. I turned around and pointed to my mother and father and I said, they did this to me and they have been doing this to me every day as long as I can remember. The judge Gasp! My back was so severely blistered with whip marks I had deep slash all over my back, my legs, my behind and my privets, I had old bruises and new bruises all over my body I only weigh around 90 lbs at the time. I was very little for my age, it turn out that I had stunt growth do to the abuse. Anyway, I ask the judge to do me a favor, if he could, I promised him I would never run away again I ask the judge to take me away from my parents and that I do not want to ever see or hear from them ever again. The judge pick up his gavel and slammed it down on his bench and he said to me “YES” I will grant you this and I will be seeing your parent in my courtroom again, and I hear by award you to the Harrison County Family Court until further placement. That my Friends was the best day in my life!

Years later I chose to go in to therapy, I spent 15 years in therapy and a lot of meds to over come what they did to me however I can not ever forget what they did to me.

A lot of you do not understand why some children kill their parents; well this is one example why kids do. My parents were evil they were monsters!


[edit on 12/1/2008 by cashlink]

Originally posted by cashlink
A lot of you do not understand why some children kill their parents; well this is one example why kids do. My parents were evil they were monsters!

Can you actually point out these posters in this thread? I think I've missed their posts.

reply to post by Merriman Weir


Wow....

He bears his heart to us and you shamelessly attack him for it.

He provided us with a true example (his own experience) by telling us about how horribly he was abused -and you further abuse him for it.

Despicable. Shameless.

*Thank you, cashlink; your contribution is literally invaluable to this particular discussion. You have provided us with a your own experience and frankly, that is far more valuable than any article.

It was very well written, and you expressed accurately the sort of things that happen in cases of chronic abuse. I feel for you.

Pay no mind to those who take advantage of those who bear their hearts to us - yourself in this case. You must realize they cannot help it; it is a reactionary response and done to prevent the next person from sharing their story - irregardless of how relevant it is to a discussion. Yours is most relevant.

Thank you for your contribution. It is even more important given the hostile conditions under which you chose to deliver it. I consider it to be the most important and most relevant post on the thread thus far. Star for you.


[edit on 1-12-2008 by Canadianduder]

Originally posted by Canadianduder
reply to post by Merriman Weir

 

Wow....

He bears his heart to us and you shamelessly attack him for it.

He provided with a true example by telling us about how horribly he was abused -and you further abuse him for it.

Despicable.

Just how was that a "shameless attack"? How was that "abuse"? How was that "despicable"?

I feel it's a waste of my time even asking these questions as I've asked you to back up quite a few claims in this thread and you haven't done so. So I'm not sure why this post will be any different.

Here's an important clue: I didn't actually comment on Cashlink's personal history. I made no comment on it. I didn't say they were a liar. I didn't diminish or undermine their story in any way. As I said, I didn't even comment on it.

What I actually did do was comment on a different point: the notion that

A lot of you do not understand why some children kill their parents

I haven't seen this in this thread. I've seen a lot of debate about what is acceptable when reprimanding a child. I've also seen myself and a few others repeatedly asking people not to make any assumptions about the story until more details come out, I've also seen you make quite a few claims that you've not really backed.

However, I've not really seen anyone "not understanding why some children kill their parents" as Cashlink claimed. There might have been someone actually stating that, but I might have missed it. I've certainly not seen 'a lot of people' as Cashlink has claimed. So, can you actually point to me to these posts? Or is this yet another claim you're not going to be able to back up?

Originally posted by RogerT
By the way, your avatar is a 'fighter' jet and your byline is thread-'killer', so yes, my best guess is that violence is in there somewhere.

Wow. Just freaking wow.

Talk about making assumptions. What does your avatar have ANYTHING to do with how you are as a person? Or your byline. So does that mean that my Fiancee has a horse fetish? She has a unicorn as her avatar.

As for how I listen, I have dozens of people that have come to me with their problems because I know exactly how to listen to them, and figure out what's going on and how to fix things for them. I haven't ONCE resorted to violence. I've gone through hell and come back myself and haven't ONCE resorted to violence even though I could easily have.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
I haven't ONCE resorted to violence. I've gone through hell and come back myself and haven't ONCE resorted to violence even though I could easily have.

Well that's very commendable, but you said you smack your kids, so you either think that smacking is not a violent act or you are lying about never resorting to violence. I'm confused.

I think this is a combination of many things. Abusive treatment at home, access to a weapon, knowing that authorities would not approve, those darn games, violence is the thing, anyway, i havent said anything that hasnt been said here but its just a culmination of everything.

On top of that, do we know if the child had emotional troubles? I think yes.
Undiagnosed and like i grew up, just chuck it up to a "bad kid" type thing, and all the time he was showing signs of danger.

I never resorted to violence, although, i've always thought if i had a weapon, i'd use it. I just get too much of a thrill with a BB gun. You know what i mean??????

Anyway, this is a sad story with a very unhappy ending and this child needs to be reconditioned in an institution for a few years.....i hope its not a chronic malevolence with him and he can perhaps grow up to be a loving human being one day.

I also think our "war mode" do affect children of all ages, and that combined with abusive parents and violent games can affect their behavior.

Originally posted by stumason
Oh come on! 1000 "smacks"? What constitutes a smack? A clip round the ear or round the arse, or beating him with a belt or table leg? If it's the former, than that is hardly worth killing your father (let alone the lodger) over is it? Regardless of his reasoning, the little turd should be punished for killing the lodger at least.

Stop making excuses until the facts come out. It quite clearly is pre-meditated murder.


Canadianduder, why did you feel the need to say "If this was England, or another disarmed country - he never would have had a chance". One could say that if this was England, then the father and his friend would still be alive and the child could call Social Services.

Is it not frightening that in a country awash with weapons that the child felt he had the right to kill someone because he was disciplined, rather than call the Authorities like a civilised person?

ive been following this story for a while, i believe this is the same kid who had his questioning by authorities up on youtube when he didnt even have a lawyer present

and you speak of calling social services in this case?
where was social services when he was being interviewed and questioned by authorities

children arent even allowed to be questioned or held without representation or adults present yet this young mans rights were taken away not only by his father but also the authorities whom you suggest could have helped the young man before this act took place

you call the kid names

yet you in the same statement say wait till the facts come out before you make statements

yet you are here online talking crap about a kid whom you know nothing about

your statement disgusts me at the pure hypocrisy in which you write

you yourself claim to tell people to wait for the facts to come out before they make excuses and statements yet you in the same sentence make the premeditated murder claim

in my view your post is absurd



i am going to be spending more time reading on this matter but as i viewed this thread and saw this post i had to address it




edited to fix the following statment and clearify

children arent even allowed to be questioned or held without representation or adults present yet this young mans rights were taken away not only by his father but also the authorities whom you suggest could have helped the young man before this act took place


i mispoke in this statement when i claimed the father took away his rights, as that is just hearsay and we dont know that the child was truly abused and those accusations are still just that as there isnt proof yet to my knowledge

[edit on 1-12-2008 by Dramey]