Stop pushing your religion on me

reply to post by Anonymous ATS



You know what. You may be right. However, he should be able to do it on his own, not have it shoved down his throat. Of course, this is coming from someone who is spiritual not religious, so, I guess what I say in the matter "doesn't matter."
:shk:

[edit on 8-10-2008 by SpeakerofTruth]

[edit on 8-10-2008 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
In this country we have Freedom OF Religion,

not to be interpreted as Freedom FROM Religion

Question: I just wonder how many of you that are supporting the free speech rights of these Christians would also condone a group of Muslims, Wiccas, Atheists or Scientologists hanging around at bus stops and pushing their "religious propaganda" on your children...

I'm a strong supporter of the First Amendment (and all of them, actually), but we're talking about school kids here. An unwilling, "captured", audience of children, who may not feel they have the right or personal power to tell the ADULT proselytizers of whatever belief system to "Back off"!

Personally, although I'm not Christian, if some Christian children were waiting at a bus stop and atheist adults were "preaching" to them, I would become FURIOUS and would most definitely step in and threaten, mock and possibly become violent in my protection of those kids. Then I would call the police.

It's NOT the job of strangers to coerce children into a belief system. It's the parents' job to raise their children how they see fit.

So, I ask all of you, would you condone the situation in my question above? Would you support and defend the rights of those other groups trying to influence YOUR children? Or is it just Christians who have the right to this practice?

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Why do you call yourself a Christian?

I've seen many posts from you critical of Jesus Christ and His message on these forums.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Uh, check what BH actually says:

although I'm not Christian

Bolding is mine.

OMS answered that question (thanks). But I wanted to address this.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
I've seen many posts from you critical of Jesus Christ and His message on these forums.

I don't ever recall being critical of Jesus OR his message. I do not criticize Jesus OR his message. I HAVE been critical of how some PEOPLE apply, interpret, relay and use his message to judge other people, but I would love to see some of the posts you're talking about where I have been critical of Jesus and his message...

I take it from this post of yours, you would support a group of Muslims, Wiccas, Atheists or Scientologists hanging around at bus stops and pushing their "propaganda" on your children. Is that correct?

Originally posted by Open_Minded Skeptic
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Uh, check what BH actually says:

although I'm not Christian

Bolding is mine.

LOL, got that. I had just woke up when I read that. Thanks, I was like "No he didn't..."

My original thoughts are correct then. I appreciate your post.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
OMS answered that question (thanks). But I wanted to address this.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
I've seen many posts from you critical of Jesus Christ and His message on these forums.

I don't ever recall being critical of Jesus OR his message. I do not criticize Jesus OR his message. I HAVE been critical of how some PEOPLE apply, interpret, relay and use his message to judge other people, but I would love to see some of the posts you're talking about where I have been critical of Jesus and his message...

I take it from this post of yours, you would support a group of Muslims, Wiccas, Atheists or Scientologists hanging around at bus stops and pushing their "propaganda" on your children. Is that correct?

Did you read past the first page of the thread? I posted this on the second page, confirming my post that you linked:

"The freedom of speech is an "excuse" to you? And you're wrong, all people, *gasp*, even pagans, are entitled to free speech as well."

Are we clear yet? ALL PEOPLE are entitled to free speech. And by ALL PEOPLE, I mean ALL PEOPLE.

What does ALL PEOPLE mean to you guys?

BH,

I don't have time to go through all the threads trying to find your posts. That's an all day task, I do know however, when I see your name or that pic of the German Sheppard I know you'll be criticizing a Christian.

If you truly approved of Christ's message you'd understand that a person who is following Him will be HATED by the world for what they have to say. If you know "Christians" you have no issues with, they aren't Christians.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
I do know however, when I see your name or that pic of the German Sheppard I know you'll be criticizing a Christian.

You make it sound as though all my posts on the entire board criticize Christians, which is FAR from the truth, but criticizing a Christian (which I am sure I have done - as I am fairly free with my criticisms of all people) is very different than criticizing Jesus or his message, which I can't remember doing.

If you know "Christians" you have no issues with, they aren't Christians.

That is incorrect. I know plenty of Christians with whom I have no issues. My mother was one. My brother is one.

I think some use the "people hate me because I'm a Christian" thing as an excuse to be forceful and pushy with their religion. They can force it down others' throats and then when people tell them to back off, they can turn to the bible and say, "Yeah, Jesus was hated, too and now I'm being hated, so it's just because I'm a Christian that you hate me." When that's not true at all. It's not the Christianity that people hate, in my experience. It's the tactics used to impose one's religion on others that are hated.

I don't think being hated is a badge to be worn as some sort of proud symbol of Christianity. I don't think Jesus meant that being hated was a sign that you're a good Christian. I think he meant that SOME people will hate you, but certainly not all non-Christians. If all non-Christians hate you, you're doing something very wrong. How would you ever hope to convert people who hate you?

Getting back to the subject of the thread, I know that all people are entitled to free speech. That wasn't my question. There are limits on free speech. Look at profanity and pornography. Children are protected from these expressions.

I was asking if you would personally approve of and support a group of Atheists (for example) "preaching to" your kid's bus stop. Surely you wouldn't approve of someone talking about explicit sexual exploits to a group of kids? There are limits to free speech and I was just wondering where those are for people personally.

But you certainly don't have to answer if you don't want to.



[edit on 9-10-2008 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
It's not the Christianity that people hate, in my experience. It's the tactics used to impose one's religion on others that are hated.
[edit on 9-10-2008 by Benevolent Heretic]

That's the EXACT point I'm trying to make.

What upsets me a bit here is that while I agree outider's story may be possibly flimsy, it's called hearsay. Yet I hear alot of Christians who have seen angels and demons and seen God work a miracle in front of them. It's truth then

interesting...

-Kyo

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

Question: I just wonder how many of you that are supporting the free speech rights of these Christians would also condone a group of Muslims, Wiccas, Atheists or Scientologists hanging around at bus stops and pushing their "religious propaganda" on your children...

From a Biblical perspective, I have to reject the (implied) premise. The Bible teaches only two types of people: Saved or UNsaved.

Each of the groups you describe above are no different than the everyday society we live in.

You make it sound like the only way that Christians are (or can be) exposed to lies is via some extreme groups you list above. I realize your list is not exhaustive, but it neglects the totality of deprivation of Biblical values that our kids are exposed to DAILY!

While you may be upset at the Wiccans pushing an agenda on kids at a bus stop, no-one seems to complain when a Kindergarten teacher gives her students "magic dust" to sprinkle on their pillow so they can sleep good that night. (True story...it happened to me a few months ago).

This is outright SORCERY and the Bible condemns it.

Some may say that this is harmless, but I disagree. The Bible makes no distinction between a "white lie" or a "lie".

Soon my daughter will be exposed to all kinds of other lies.

OF COURSE I believe in free speech!

If there were no evil in this world I wouldn't need to teach my kids about what God says about evil. But it is here. EVERYWHERE.

1 John 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

The Christian Bible makes no (final) distinction between an atheist/wiccan/muslim/etc. and an unbeliever, for they are all the same: UNbelievers:

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Benevolent Heretic, you have offered up distinctions that the Bible does not make.

I am not worried about the Wiccan standing on the street corner handing out his/her literature to my kids. They bring home the literature and it is discussed and then disposed of when the lies are revealed. It is actually FAR easier to defeat this type of bold maneuver of the enemy than it is with the far more insidious and subtleness of evil of the rest of the world.

I wonder aloud, "Why did I have to console a sad (actually she was hysterical) little girl who found out that her teacher LIED to her and that there is NO SUCH THING as "magic dust that you sprinkle on your pillow to help you sleep"??

AND, if I may be able to continue, why did she keep sobbing and complaining that "my teacher is an ADULT!! She should KNOW better than to lie to little children!!"

Do you, dear reader, understand the above? Do you AGREE that the teacher LIED to my daughter? Do you, dear reader, know what the Bible says about those who do these things to children?

Matt 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Alas, Benevolent Heretic, you've defined (what the Bible calls) evil into something (always) quite obvious and blatant and the Bible teaches NO SUCH THING. There is an EXTRAORDINARY amount of subtleness to Satan's devices.

Evil men even creep into CHURCHES unawares!!

Jude 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

There are no "shades of gray" when it comes to eternal life. Either one's name is written in the Book of Life, or it isn't.

------------

Now, as for those who will preach the Gospel where they aren't wanted:

Matt 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Originally posted by PreTribGuy
You make it sound like the only way that Christians are (or can be) exposed to lies is via some extreme groups you list above.

I didn't intend that at all. I didn't imply that. I'm not sure why you think that. People (not just Christians) are exposed to lies all the time. I was just asking a hypothetical question:

Would those of you who condone Christians preaching to children at bus stops (claiming Free Speech rights) also condone people of other beliefs doing the same?

I'm not sure of your answer.

While you may be upset at the Wiccans pushing an agenda on kids at a bus stop...

Just to be clear, I would be upset by ANYONE pushing an agenda of any kind on a group of kids at a bus stop. That includes Wiccans AND Christians. I don't really care whether they think what they're pushing is the truth or not (for both the Wiccans and the Christians THINK they are speaking the truth), it's the fact that they are taking advantage of children, away from the protection of their parents to influence them.

[quote
Soon my daughter will be exposed to all kinds of other lies.

Just curious... What did you tell your daughter about Santa? Death? Do you tell her the truth?

Benevolent Heretic, you have offered up distinctions that the Bible does not make.

Okay. They are distinctions that I make, however. To me, people are all the same as regards their beliefs. The Wicca, the Christian, the Muslim, the atheist are all people with their own belief systems. I don't see it the same as you do: Believers and non-believers. We all have beliefs of one kind or another.

Do you, dear reader, understand the above? Do you AGREE that the teacher LIED to my daughter? Do you, dear reader, know what the Bible says about those who do these things to children?

Yes, yes and yes.

Alas, Benevolent Heretic, you've defined (what the Bible calls) evil into something (always) quite obvious and blatant and the Bible teaches NO SUCH THING.

I don't know what the above means. I've "defined evil into something quite obvious and blatant"? What does that mean?

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

I don't think being hated is a badge to be worn as some sort of proud symbol of Christianity. I don't think Jesus meant that being hated was a sign that you're a good Christian. I think he meant that SOME people will hate you, but certainly not all non-Christians. If all non-Christians hate you, you're doing something very wrong. How would you ever hope to convert people who hate you?

I actually (somewhat) like what you've written above. I agree with part of it.

The Bible verses in question (there are more, but these should suffice) are these:

1 John 3:13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

and

2 Tim 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

My next-door neighbor doesn't "hate me".
I am no threat to him or his wife and kids. He (hopefully) sees a very nice family of 6 (wife and 4 kids under ten) living next door and being very fine moral people. He knows that we (proclaim to be) Christians and he doesn't worry about us.

We are harmless to him and his family.

Romans 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

He has never asked me a "religious question" so I don't feel the need to "preach/teach" to him (or his family). We drop 'hints' every now and then (IE: The Lord has blessed us), but he has never inquired further.

...and that is 'ok' with me and with God!

On the other hand, forums such as BTS/Religion,Faith and Theology actually invite open debate and discussion so I feel no "prohibition" here.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

Would those of you who condone Christians preaching to children at bus stops (claiming Free Speech rights) also condone people of other beliefs doing the same?

I'm not sure of your answer.

If they (the 'Christians') aren't wanted there, then my final quote from my above post should answer the question.

I don't have any real "say" (power) over these others (Wiccans/etc). This isn't hard to understand. I (and my family) try to live by the rules given in the Bible. I cannot imagine myself preaching where I'm (clearly) not wanted.

I just don't have any authority to stop the "others" from doing what they do.

I'll try to say this another way:

I'll stop preaching where I'm not wanted, because the Bible commands this of me. The Bible also commands us not to lie, but I cannot, by extension, force the Wiccans/Atheists/etc. to stop lying...just because the Bible SAYS SO.

Put a 3rd way:

I need to obey what Jesus said to do. As for the others? It isn't my problem.

I DO need to say, though, that the idea that one would claim "rights" afforded by the State (country you live in) means very little to me. I'm THANKFUL that my family lives in the USA where we DO have a Freedom of speech. I AM thankful for this! But Jesus laid out very clear guidelines for Christians.

What part do I have have in judging outsiders?

1 Cor 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

If these people claim to be Christians and they aren't WANTED there...they are violating what Jesus SAID to do. It is that simple to me.

Just curious... What did you tell your daughter about Santa? Death? Do you tell her the truth?

Oddly, this is (almost always) the 'follow-up-GOTCHA-question' that is asked of me.

I have 4 kids under the age of 10. My wife and I have never once lied to them about Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy or EASTER BUNNIES (or death) or that some people are REALLY EVIL.

HOWEVER:

Our family is not some 'super-stoic-and-serious-no-fun-family'. Christmas is SUPPOSED to be fun and joyous!

My wife and I say to our kids Christmas Eve, "Go to bed so we can put your presents under the tree". "Santa" IS mom and dad...and the kids are STILL excited.

When our eldest loses a tooth, mom puts the money under the pillow with a note that says, "From MOMMY...also known as the Tooth Fairy".

Our children aren't deprived of the fun...only the lies.

Eph 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

My wife and I are also free from LYING EVEN FURTHER by feigning 'shock' at all those presents under the tree from a man they will never meet...EVER

Sometimes, Benevolent Heretic, I and my wife are thought to be CRUEL by not 'allowing' our children to believe this lie about 'Santa Claus'. They will try and tell us stories about all the joyous times THEIR kids had 'believing in Santa Claus' and that (perhaps) we are actually (sinfully) DEPRIVING our children of some fun.

YUCK!

So, to answer your question...we tell our kids the truth. And we expect the same from them. (But we STILL have loads of fun at Christmas...AS WELL AS HALLOWEEN!)

I don't know what the above means. I've "defined evil into something quite obvious and blatant"? What does that mean?

THANK YOU for caring enough to note that I didn't define this well enough. I suppose I could have said this better, but I was looking at the constraints of your post.

I don't know that I can make my quote 'perfect', but may I offer this?

"The most insidious evil is evil undetected, for this evil may be within the person next to you. EVE was never commanded to FLEE from the Serpent! ONLY Jesus knew that Judas was to betray Him. I imagine that the other Disciples had NO CLUE about Judas and the Bible seems to bear this narrative out. Evil may be detected in the (outright) murderer, but only Jesus knows the Judas's in our midst."

Both the Serpent and Judas were not obvious.

It is interesting to note that Judas is called, "the son of perdition" and this term is used only one other time in the New Testament...to describe Satan:

(Judas)
John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

(Satan)
2 Thess. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Thank you for your time in reading what I've written. (And YOU TOO...other readers!)

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

Okay. They are distinctions that I make, however. To me, people are all the same as regards their beliefs. The Wicca, the Christian, the Muslim, the atheist are all people with their own belief systems. I don't see it the same as you do: Believers and non-believers. We all have beliefs of one kind or another.

I cannot be "you", nor can you be "me", but there is a Bible that actually makes the distinction and we both can appeal to it objectively. I cannot "force a person" to believe in the Bible for that is not only prohibited (see above), but it goes against this verse (note my emphasis):

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

I've often said I have more "hope" for the honest Atheist than the "pew-sitter-of-25-years".

There is a stark difference between those who claim "special revelation" and me. I only ask to be held to a Biblical standard. My "visions" or "surmising" or my "experience" is nothing to be measured against what the Bible says.

If I'm wrong...sinful...then there is a very real book that I can be told to GO TO for answers

Those who aren't Believers can offer me nothing but THEIR experience...and it usually is failure. I like the Bible because of it's great and precious promises. It is a STANDARD against which the world will look to judge me. (And when I fail...I'm pretty sure they will let me know that I failed the BIBLE test of sin or no sin, for I TOLD them (or implied) that THAT IS the objective standard in which I live by.)

Rather than be intimidated by 'visions from others' ("I saw Jesus and He said it was OK to divorce my wife!!! She is REALLY mean to me!!!"), I'd rather answer to this 'vision' thusly:

Matt 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

reply to post by PreTribGuy


Outstanding post PTG, I had lost this thread in the pile.

However something you typed makes me sick, please never again capitalize "satan".

He deserves no such honor.

Other than that, outstanding post, star 4 U.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Christians can share their faith anywhere they want to, so can Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, et cetra.

But that doesn't mean that they should.

People can practice their faith anywhere, however their personal beliefs should not be used as to bully others into taking propaganda.

I'm sure that you have carefully brainwashed your children into following your beliefs. How would you like it if someone tried to brainwash them into following a different faith?

I was raised in a Christian household. I have great respect for all faiths, and those who genuinely practice them. I cannot tell you how positively livid I was to have Jehovah's Witnesses knock on my door early last Sunday morning. And while my husband tried to politely tell them we were busy, they still insisted on reading Bible passages to him. I went to the door and told him that I needed help with something, and they still kept reading for several more minutes. He felt it would be rude to go back inside before they were finished.

When someone comes to your Christian home, share your faith with them then. Don't go to their house or school to do it--that's their turf. It's immensely rude, and probably drives more people away from your message than toward it.

Why don't you share your faith by living it, and not by throwing it in others' faces?

reply to post by NOTurTypical

He deserves no such honor.

Yes...I struggle with this idea of "Capitalization" in a lot of my posts. Should "Christian" ALWAYS be capitalized?

I sometimes think so, but I don't do that...all the time.

As for Satan?

I think it is very unwise to ascribe any type of accusation to him or ANY dignity:

2 Peter 2:10-12 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

We, as Christians, are not allowed to make an accusation against Satan. The word/name 'Satan' is a proper (and common enough in the English language) noun and to say Satan doesn't deserve a proper-nouned-name (I just made that term up) IS speaking evil of dignities.

Consider further:

Jude 9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

"Michael" IS capitalized and I see no reward in spending one's life correcting people on proper nouns while writing.

Consider again:

1 Kings 18:22 Then said Elijah unto the people, I, even I only, remain a prophet of the LORD; but Baal's prophets are four hundred and fifty men.

I see no 'sin' in allowing Satan to be capitalized. "Baal" was capitalized in 1 Kings, many times.
So was Jezebel.
It is nothing more than a proper noun.

I'm 'ok' with:
devil
satanic
evil
lies
liar

All these are descriptions of the same author:

Satan.

There is no permission given to the Saint to somehow diminish the role/name of evil people based upon their sins. Jezebel is ALWAYS capitalized as a proper noun for that IS her name.

We are not allowed to make such judgments, for we are speaking evil of dignities.

reply to post by TheHypnoToad

I cannot tell you how positively livid I was to have Jehovah's Witnesses knock on my door early last Sunday morning.

Luke 10:7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.