Islam: What the West needs to know.

Originally posted by Atharee
I didn't post this, but I have to respond to Lookdeeper. Rape is not allowed in Islam, it would be considered a crime worse than fornication or adultery. However, men and women contribute to a corrupt society by conducting themselves in immoral manners. If food is left out, mice will come. Women's beauty is often exploited by men in the west, thus it has promoted criminal attacks upon women. Rape is an epidemic in America, a majority Christian nation.

A rapist is subjected to be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off from opposite sides, depending on the severity of the attack.

Only women are stoned in adultery? You guys really don't want the truth do you? This is such a common lie, so much so I have to ask where is your proof? Let me break it down for you **SNIP** : In the Shariah, if a man or woman is married and has sex with other than their spouse it has to be proven by 4 reliable witnesses' or by confession. Then if proven, the punishment will occur. However, if the guilty flea punishment, than they are to be left alone and not pursued. They now have to deal with the consequences on the the day of Judgment.

Stoning is for adultery, lashes (not death) are for fornication - both men and women.

As far as I know, the people punished for this crime during the Prophet's life confessed and asked for it to expiate the sin. Even the Prophet tried to turn away from one of them 3 times but she persisted, and he commanded the people not to speak ill of her after she died and said she was destined for heaven due to her high faith.

There is no authentic report that singles out women only for stoning, men and women are equal in this regard. ...

There is so much you are not telling us here I could die laughing.

The 4 witnesses thing only applies to finding the man guilty when a woman accuses him. Also, you said "reliable", where in truth they have to be male. Does this reflect your view of women, that men are reliable and women are not? Come on, mate, tell the truth about the weight given a woman's word in an Islamic court of law compared to that given the man's word.

By accusing the man of rape, the woman is confessing to having had sex, and she is punished as an adulteress, and stoned to death, despite the fact that no man is going to rape a woman in front of 4 male witnesses who will speak up in court for her.

And Muslims have the cheek to boast about the lack of rapes in their society and blame Western women's clothing for rapes in America. An American woman can freely report a rape. A Muslim woman cannot.

www.thereligionofpeace.com...

Even if a Muslim woman found 4 men willing to say in court they had seen a man rape her, and proved her case, where is she left? She is then "damaged goods", and a shame to her family. She is regarded with contempt by males for what males have done to her, and in some families will even be killed for her "loss of honour."

The assertion that 4 reliable (male) witnesses have to be found to convict a woman is incorrect, as, according to Islamic law, the word of a male is worth twice that of a female.

Bukhari (6:301) - "(Muhammad) said, 'Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?' They replied in the affirmative. He said, 'This is the deficiency in her intelligence.'"

The accusation that western women who dress in a way that shows off their bodies are responsible for rape is one of the sickest things I have read. This view has been quoted in Australian courts in the last few years by Muslims eager to justify the pack-raping of teenage girls after an Imam here compared scantily dressed women with meat left out for the dogs.

These views cause rape, because they train men to blame the women for their own violent, perverted hate-crimes against women.





[edit on 29/9/08 by Kailassa]

americans are far more dangerous to world peace than islam could ever be and the fact that you cant see the hypocrisy of what you do and say is what makes you 10times scarier. this may come as a shock to most of you but muslims believe jesus christ to be a prophet of god, they believe the torah to be a holy book and the bible, the only difference is they also have the quran. so claiming its dangerous is ridiculous considering you all essentialy worship the same god. muslims do carry out suicde bombings but lets look at why, america the worlds biggest super power deciededs who can and cant have what(nuclear power/weapons) who can do what, USA invades iraq and afganistan because of the actions of a few terrorists, yet when georgian troops open fire on russian citiseans near russias border and they retaliate they are the ones who are threatening world peace?! how do these people who are are out gunned and out maned defend themselves from invaders? every 4th of july you celebrate your victory over the british, one day the iraqis will have a day of celebration too, everyone of you would fight to the death and do what ever it took to protect your friends and family from an invader, if china invaded the usa, how many of you would fight them, how many would just sit back and accept this new overlord who steals your countrys resources and kills your countrymen. most of these people who are fighting are just doing what all of us would do, they havent been corrupted by some evil religion. im an athesit but ive read the koran and the one thing it has on the bible is it tells muslims not to just accept what it says blindly but to question it and put its teachings to the test, which is why islamic scholars have been involved in some of the most important scientific breakthroughs in human history. im an atheist but i hate things like this where people slag off religion, i dont believe but if we as a species are ever going to live in harmony we need to accept differences and celebrate the simlilaritys. whats happening today is almost the same as what hitler did with demonising the jews. sorry if that didnt make sense im tired

There is so much you are not telling us here I could die laughing...

Stop copying and pasting, take more time in learning than spending 3 min on youtube and then think you know everything about Islam.

The foundation of my reply is true: both men and women are subjected to the same punishment. I've been to Saudi Arabia on more than one occasion, I have several friends who live there and witnessed this fact. Yes there are more details to the ruling but the foundation still applies: both men and women are equally at fault unless one is unmarried. So if a woman is unmarried and the man she fornicated with is married, she would not be put to death but rather he would.

You start to go into a lot of cultural things here that would also apply to Arab & other eastern Christians that consider a woman "damaged goods" as you put it. I live amongst many American Muslims, we don't have these cultural hang ups. So this part of your argument is not too strong. There is no Islamic justification to shun a victim of rape, and you have no textual proof of that.

Lastly, I'm not saying that women wearing revealing clothing are deserving of rape or any type of harassment. I don't care what sources you quote, Islamically there is no justification for it and again you have no religious text that says "If you see a woman half naked go rape her!" People may distort things to fulfill their own desires, but that is true with any religion or philosophy. All I'm saying is that it is a social problem whether its men or women, that is why businesses & schools have dress codes!

The fact is many westerners are turning to Islam because Christianity, Democracy and western ideology is failing. America is not facing extinction due to weapons of mass destruction, it is deteriorating from within. Crime is high, drug use is high, teenage sex is common, education is getting poorer and poorer and the list goes on. And as far as these cultural Muslims overseas, they do nothing but fuel the fire of lies. I never have looked at the general Muslim population as an example to be followed, it was the authentic texts of Islam that convinced me of it's truth. Not everyone has to agree with it, you are born of free choice but at least speak the truth when speaking about others.

Originally posted by Atharee ... Stop copying and pasting, take more time in learning than spending 3 min on youtube and then think you know everything about Islam.

The foundation of my reply is true: both men and women are subjected to the same punishment. I've been to Saudi Arabia on more than one occasion, I have several friends who live there and witnessed this fact. Yes there are more details to the ruling but the foundation still applies: both men and women are equally at fault unless one is unmarried. So if a woman is unmarried and the man she fornicated with is married, she would not be put to death but rather he would. ...

You objected to me copy/pasting this?

Bukhari (6:301) - "(Muhammad) said, 'Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?' They replied in the affirmative. He said, 'This is the deficiency in her intelligence.'"

I guess you must, as it's the only thing C/P'd in my post.

I've spent many years living amongst Muslims, seen how women are treated.

It's funny you should mention Saudi Arabia, a country in which women are not allowed to vote, not allowed to drive, not allowed to leave home without a male family member's permission, not allowed to meet a man unchaperoned, and where "witches" are still executed*, and claim some sort of equality.

* The human rights organisation Amnesty International regularly condemns Saudi Arabia for its executions and for the mockery of a trial which most of the victims receive. The hearings, according to Amnesty, do not accord with the basic norms of international law and are often heard in secret. Visitors to Saudi Arabia have said that women convicted of drugs offences are sometimes rape victims who are judicially murdered to prevent them identifying their assailant.

Sure you can say Islam holds both equally guilty in theory, but what happens in practice?

CNN News

A court in Saudi Arabia increased the punishment for a gang-rape victim after her lawyer won an appeal of the sentence for the rapists, the lawyer told CNN.

The 19-year-old victim was sentenced last year to 90 lashes for meeting with an unrelated male, a former friend from whom she was retrieving photographs. The seven rapists, who abducted the pair, received sentences ranging from 10 months to five years in prison.

The victim's attorney, Abdulrahman al-Lahim, contested the rapists' sentence, contending there is a fatwa, or edict under Islamic law, that considers such crimes Hiraba (sinful violent crime) and the punishment should be death.

"After a year, the preliminary court changed the punishment and made it two to nine years for the defendants," al-Lahim said of the new decision handed down Wednesday. "However, we were shocked that they also changed the victim's sentence to be six months in prison and 200 lashes."

Justice? Enough lashes to torture or kill the girl, leave her scarred for life if she survives, plus 6 months prison? And this supposedly for meeting a man alone who she did not have sex with?

She was clearly being punished for reporting rape in a country that likes pretending to be purer than Western society.

Originally posted by Atharee ... There is no Islamic justification to shun a victim of rape, and you have no textual proof of that. ...

No? Really?

PeaceWomen
"May 17, 2005 - (IWPR'S Iraqi Crisis Report No. 125) Faeq Ameen Bakr, director general of Baghdad's Institute of Forensic Medicine in Baghdad, often writes "killed to wash away her disgrace" in the many autopsy reports and investigations that cross his desk."

Dhimmi Watch
"Tehran, Iran, Oct. 21 -- Girls as young as nine are running away from their homes and living on the streets in Iran, according to a classified report issued by the Ministry of Education. ... 86% of girls who ran away from their homes for the first time were raped. The majority of such victims are rejected by their families if they choose to return after having been raped."

Pakistani tells how he killed 4 daughters:
"Nazir Ahmed appears calm and unrepentant as he recounts how he slit the throats of his three young daughters and their 25-year old stepsister to salvage his family's "honor" — a crime that shocked some in Pakistan. The 40-year old laborer, speaking to the Associated Press in police detention as he was being shifted to prison, said he had only one regret — that he didn't kill the stepsister's alleged lover too.

Hundreds of girls and women are killed by male relatives each year in this conservative Islamic nation, and rights groups said "

Women born into "bad luck" in Afghanistan
"For girls like Fawzia, surviving savage rape will in many cases force them to face new dangers in their young lives. The hospital report states that the family should be monitored and the police already warned the parents not to hurt their daughter. This may seem incomprehensible to the Western reader, but in Islamic societies like Afghanistan a daughter who is raped or loses her virginity brings shame on the whole family.

The lost honor can then only be recovered by killing the victim – the so-called "honor killings" that frequently occur in Afghanistan. The matter of honor is a big issue for Mohammad too. "I keep thinking about how to remove this shame from our family and restore our honor," he says, "but I am poor and this is impossible to do.""

Iraqi Honor Killings
"Women's rights in Iraq are a subject of growing alarm for activists and some secular groups. The widely accepted and seldom prosecuted practice of "honor killings" -- in which family members of women who have had extramarital sex have a right to kill her -- is of particular concern."

Fear of honor killings in Iraq
"Reports of sexual violence and abduction of women and girls abounded in Baghdad during the early days of the occupation . . . reports that the US government chose to ignore. Human rights groups, medical practitioners, victims, and witnesses had documented many of the crimes. Human rights organizations were concerned that many other cases went unreported and uninvestigated because some of the Iraqi women and girls feared that reporting sexual violence and rapes would provoke “honor” killings and social stigmatization."

And there's lots more

reply to post by Kailassa


You seem to have issues with Prophet Muhammad's claim than there is a deficiency in a woman's intellect. I read a very interesting article I would like to share with you:

On Start the Week, on Radio 4, tonight, Jeremy Paxman asked Professor Susan Greenfield, well-known neuroscientist (and Director of the Royal Institution) "You claim, don't you, that the more emotion you have, the less mind you have?" "That's right," she answered. Indeed, it is one of the main propositions in her new book, The Private Life of the Brain. She went on to say, "[For example] One might say that, in meditation, one is developing a very deep consciousness, where you are accessing your inner states, and ignoring the outside world. This could be an example of where you are NOT experiencing an emotion, as such. The opposite would be, [perhaps], a baby, or someone with road rage, or a bungy jumper, awash with emotions and who is not [therefore] 'accessing' [with the mind] the past, or the future, or anything 'inside'." Thus, Prof Greenfield is saying that the more 'emotion' you experience, the less 'mind' you have. Now, which of the two possible genders, statistically speaking, experiences more emotion - and would claim to? Mmm! The female gender, one would suspect. And it follows, therefore, that, statistically speaking, this gender has less 'mind'. It is less in 'contact' with it. Putting this another way: Relatively speaking, compared to men, women are less often 'accessing the past, or the future, or anything 'inside' ' - statistically, that is. Well, that's what follows from Professor Greenfield's observations. And most men and women would agree with them, openly, if they weren't having to be so politically correct. Women, thus, statistically speaking, function less 'mindfully' than men, or, putting it less euphemistically, less 'intelligently'. It cannot have escaped even the most ardent feminist's notice that it is men who are the focused, the possessed, and the obsessed. It is men who push forward the boundaries of science, music, technology and art. It is men who build great cities and great religions.

www.angryharry.com...

The fact is men and women are very different, physically, psychologically and mentally. Who tends to break out into tears more often when watching emotional movies, men or women? Who would tend to be swayed more by emotion in a court of justice when giving testimony?

The West does seem to exhibit double-standards when dealing with gender equality. Women can work with men, women can be politicians as well as men, women can go to bars and drink with men but have you wondered why women are not allowed to compete in basketball games with men in the NBA? Why isn't there a mixed 100m sprint? Why this inequality?

In Islam, we recognize that men and women have different needs and need to be treated differently to best cater to their needs. There is no concept of discrimination in Islam. Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was asked who is the most deserving of one's companionship. he replied your mother. He was asked "then whom" and he once again replied "your mother". He was asked a third time and he replied the same thing again. When asked a fourth time he said "Your father". He also said the best amongst you is the one who is best to his wives. Women were uplifted from degradation and were given rights like no other religion, system or way of life have given them. They are treated with respect and dignity in Islam, not as sex objects to drool over and enjoy as is prevalent in the West (Go to any Western university if you doubt this statement).

I dont mean to criticize you, all I am trying to do is make a point. Islam doesnt belittle women, it uplifts them.

reply to post by Kailassa


I do agree, many Muslims torture women and do unspeakable acts but you have to understand that there are black sheep in every community. Isn't there a concept of wife-beaters in the West? The problem is that the black sheep of the Muslim community are highlighted and portrayed as typical Muslims.

There is a difference between what some Muslims do and what Islam teaches us. The pagan Arabs used to bury their females alive when they were born but Islam prohibited this practice. Most Muslims unfortunately do not follow the pure Islam, they rather follow a mixture of Islam and their tribal/social customs.

Suppose you have the best car in the world and you give it to someone who cant drive and he crashes the car. Who do you blame, the car or the driver? Obviously the driver! In the same way, you can blame Muslims but not Islam. If you want to find a fault with Islam, judge it's performance with the best driver we have, Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). If you have any complaints, then do let me know, I will be more than willing to clarify your misconceptions.

Originally posted by Atharee ... Lastly, I'm not saying that women wearing revealing clothing are deserving of rape or any type of harassment. I don't care what sources you quote,

Islamically there is no justification for it and again you have no religious text that says "If you see a woman half naked go rape her!"

You don't care what sources I quote? I guess you realized the reliable sources I could quote are frighteningly numerous.


Women incite mens' lust with "satanic dress"

"A Muslim sheik told followers at a public meeting in Bankstown that women who were raped had incited men's lust by dressing immodestly and only had themselves to blame.
Sydney-born Sheik Faiz Mohamad, 34, a former boxer who teaches at the Global Islamic Youth Centre in Liverpool, made the comments during a lecture for more than 1000 people at Bankstown Town Hall.

The Sun-Herald has a recording of the March 18 speech in which Sheik Faiz said: "A victim of rape every minute somewhere in the world. Why? No one to blame but herself. She displayed her beauty to the entire world . . ."

Muslim cleric likens women to "uncovered meat"

"A Muslim cleric's claim that women who do not wear the veil are like 'uncovered meat' who attract sexual predators sparked outrage around Australia yesterday.

Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali, the nation's most senior Muslim cleric, compared immodestly-dressed women who do not wear the Islamic headdress with meat that is left uncovered in the street and is then eaten by cats."

Muslim cleric blames women for rape

"Hilali was quoted in The Australian newspaper Thursday as saying in the sermon: "If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside ... without cover, and the cats come to eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats' or the uncovered meat's?"

"The uncovered meat is the problem. If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred,""

Top Muslim cleric advocates rape and killing of non-Muslim women

"During a question answer session in East London Mosque, preacher Imam Abdul Makin was asked by a niqabi muslima about recent fatwa from a well known Imam .

Naqabi Woman: “One eyed hooked Imam Hamza Mesri said muslims can kill British infidels and have sex with their wives and daughters, Do you agree with him?”

Imam: “It is not what Imam Hamza said nor is there a question of my agreeing with him or not. It is in Quran thus those are Allah’s orders.”

N.W.: “But why would Allah tell muslims to kill and rape innocent non muslims?”

Imam: “Because Non-muslims are never innocent, they are guilty of denying Allah and his prophet. If you don’t believe me, here is the legal authority, the top muslim lawyer of Britain, Anjem Choudhary "

Are you starting to see a theme here, Atharee?
And it continues ...

Originally posted by Lookdeeper ... When a MALE gets out on bail and has been holding his sexual urge for a FEMALE for years. Here comes a girl all ready to hit the club late at night in her mini tight skirt. Whats that broke brother going to do to that little girl? ...

Originally posted by Atharee ... However, men and women contribute to a corrupt society by conducting themselves in immoral manners. If food is left out, mice will come. ...

Quite simply, if a man is inevitably going to rape girls who show more flesh than he considers proper, then he should lock himself up and throw the key out his window. Imitating the behaviour of wild dogs is not acceptable.

You objected to me copy/pasting this?

No, I don't have a problem with that but copying and pasting bits here and there are easy ways to deceive people into thinking one thing without hearing the whole case. Now as I said, you have freedom of choice so you can agree or disagree. However, I would encourage anyone wanting to know more about Islamic jurisprudence should research it in a classroom setting instead of from "experts" like yourself.

You said you lived around muslims and seen how they treat women, well I got news for ya I lived in Canada and the US and I see how non-Muslims treat women...as objects. I used to be like that, Islam taught me to respect the mothers, daughters and sisters of society. Many Historians agree that Islam gave more rights to women than any other religion. Is your culture so much better because you have great examples like Britteny, Paris and Hannah Montana as role models for the women of the future? Yeah, we Muslims need to catch up to your civilized ways! Give me a break, you can't even go into Target and shop for modest little girls clothes. Why would a 6yr old girl need low rise pants? I'm sorry, you may hate Islam and Muslims, but the west is the biggest supplier of new converts so I guess some do not see it as you do.

I don't think you have traveled much, but my wife and I went to Riyadh, Jeddah and Makkah. Did a lot of shopping, visited western friends living there and never felt oppressed or in danger. My wife went out several times (day & night) with a group of females friends without guardians or chaperons and never encountered problems from the authorities. My wife who is a 2nd generation Muslim even had negative ideas before going and ended up really enjoying it. In fact she was surprised at how much it accommodates women. The only thing I didn't like about the place was where culture sidestepped Islam, many Saudis are tribal and can be very prideful. These types of characteristics are opposite to what Islam teaches.

A lot of negativity is reported about Saudi, and we could go back and forth of examples in the west and east. For instance holding detainees without any fair hearing, access to lawyers and such, or the unfair judicial system towards blacks, etc. If you really want to learn, you need to see things for yourself.

A whole lot of anti-Islamic sites have been linked, I would suggest reading this if you want a better reply to the 2 women witness issue:

www.fatwa-online.com...

go to: About Islam> Misconceptions About Women in Islaam - Why Two Women Witnesses?

and check out this site:

www.islaam.ca...

I hope visit these sites seeking truth instead of finding articles to support your own opinion.

The reality is niether culture actually offers any freedom to women, they are just polar opposites in terms of abuse and argue over which way of controling and subordinateing Women is most effective for thier happiness.

In the west we force women into masculinized roles, offer wage slavery and over sexualization and desturction of family and normalized sex roles crippling feminine power and in the East the role of Mother IS respected but under the ultimate authority of men.

In Niether culture... are females accepted as leaders of the clergy, where skills of emotion, spirituality and communication and the nurturing gifts of women would benefit the world

Until Men allow women into the role of Priestess again we will never have peace on Earth

The west offers "freedom" to be a man... be a senator, vote, engage in war and business... but show me the Female spiritual movement? Which was most likely for all of human history the domain of those who Give Life

Both cultures brutalize a womans truest stregnths and refuse her acceptance in those roles.

Originally posted by Islam_solutionforhumanity You seem to have issues with Prophet Muhammad's claim than there is a deficiency in a woman's intellect. I read a very interesting article I would like to share with you: ...

You're hilarious, trying to prove in a forum like this that women have less intelligence than men.Honestly, are you trolling to give Muslim men a bad reputation or are you serious?

There is no concept of discrimination in Islam.

No, because in Muslim societies the men make all the rules, they believe women should be subservient and have no rights, and so they see no discrimination in their shameful treatment of women.

Women were uplifted from degradation and were given rights like no other religion, system or way of life have given them.

Rights?
The right to get raped and then killed if you tell anyone?
The right to always have to wear suffocatingly thick, hot clothing no matter how hot the weather?
The right to have to live in accordance with Sharia law, never wearing makeup outside, never letting a strand of hair show outside, never even going outside without permission?
Never being allowed to ride a horse or a bicycle for fear of damaging the hymen which is all you are valued for?

Tell me, what is the position in strict Islamic society of a single woman with no family or male protector?

They are treated with respect and dignity in Islam, not as sex objects to drool over and enjoy as is prevalent in the West. (Go to any Western university if you doubt this statement.)

Lol, I've been to 'Western university". The girls in my classes were treated by the guys in the way you would hope Western men would treat their sisters. In return we helped the guys with their studies.

Originally posted by Kailassa

You don't care what sources I quote?

Your sources should be from the religious texts, that's what I'm saying.

I've seen this time and time again, people copy and paste back to back articles of incidents where the "evil muslims" incite their evil beliefs! I must have hit a nerve! Got you working huh?

I don't have time to continue with you, but I will end with this: I have been Muslim for over 13 years, I consider myself a conservative Sunni Muslim and I have never sat in a class (of which I have sat in many including with scholars from Saudi, Egypt, Kuwait, Yemen etc.) that taught me to treat women badly, lower their status, rape them if they are lewd, slander them or any of the other things you are trying to claim. Nor have I been encouraged to kill non-Muslims, hurt them, sabotage them, cheat or steal from them. Most of the people who incite this type of behavior are rogue individuals with no or little knowledge and are full of emotion and zeal (and ignorance). I've been to mosques coast to coast, in different countries and I have never personally experienced this. So going by my experience, I disagree and so do the continuing amount of western converts like myself. You want to pass judgment on the majority based on the actions of a minority, you don't care about the truth you just want to prove your opinion.

Originally posted by RoloTumasci
There are 1.8 billion Muslims in the world. If Qu'ran was indeed a radical book that called for death of unbelievers then wouldn't we have a #load of more war going on. I mean that's almost a third of our population thirsting for our blood according to some of the 'experts' on the religion posting in this thread. Wouldn't we be engaged in a full out holy war with every Muslim out there?

There is a bunch of wars going on in the name of jihad. All over the world there isn't many countries in the world that doesn't have some kind of conflict with jihadists at this point.



Watch this video every one keeps saying the United states is being attacked because Iraq or support for Israel. Truth is just a lie did you know the Chinese Olympics was threatened by an imam in china? It was such a concern before the Olympics the Chinese govt sent troops to the region to make sure they didn't attack the Olympics.

The Russians have called for conferences to deal with terrorists they have. Its almost so bad you could throw a dart at a map and you can find some form of Muslim terrorist killing people.

Now the argument that's its radical Islam ill buy that but when is the moderates going to do something about it. If a leader of any church in any other religion in the world called for killing someone there would be other religious leaders of that faith saying there crazy! Where is the condemnation we need?

reply to post by Atharee
You and other apologists for Islam in this thread have already shown, by your denial of the true situation on Muslim women, that you are oppressors.
To know the tree, look at its fruits.
To know the teacher, just look at his students.

But if you really want to examine Mohammed himself, here's something to chew on:

The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150)

Apparently Mohammed not only approved of the rape of these women, he insisted on it.

reply to post by Kailassa

You're hilarious, trying to prove in a forum like this that women have less intelligence than men.Honestly, are you trolling to give Muslim men a bad reputation or are you serious?

I am giving you an opinion of a woman (also a non-Muslim). Surely that does have some weight. If it gives me a bad reputation by speaking the truth, then I prefer to have this bad reputation. Living in denial doesnt make problems go away.

No, because in Muslim societies the men make all the rules, they believe women should be subservient and have no rights, and so they see no discrimination in their shameful treatment of women.

In Muslim societies, you have to obey your mother. If she makes a rule that you have to go to bed by 10, you cannot say no. Its as much as a commandment. In Muslim societies, men have their roles and women have their roles according to their abilities and strengths. There is no discrimination, there is only role-definition.

The right to get raped and then killed if you tell anyone?

This is to be found nowhere in Islam. This may be tribal tradition, but it is definitely not Islamic. The rapist deserves the death penalty, not the woman who is raped.

The right to always have to wear suffocatingly thick, hot clothing no matter how hot the weather?

At home, in front of your family, you do not have to wear the hejab, veil etc. If its too hot, dont go out. Get your son to do the shopping (he can't say no!) or if your son is too young, get your husband to do the shopping. If there is an emergency or a necessity, I dont see any reason why a relaxation cant be made. After all you can eat pork to survive if no other food is available. Islam was meant to make things easy for the people, not to put them into difficulties.

The right to have to live in accordance with Sharia law, never wearing makeup outside, never letting a strand of hair show outside, never even going outside without permission?

Even men have to live in accordance to Sharia law. They have the right to lower their gazes. They have the right to cover themselves and not wear revealing clothing. Islam not only prohibits shamefulness and lewdness but closes all doors reaching to it. These rules are for the benefit of society and women themselves, not for oppression of women. You can wear makeup outside, just make sure your face is covered so strange men can't feast on your beauty and get tempted by you.

Never being allowed to ride a horse or a bicycle for fear of damaging the hymen which is all you are valued for?

I really dont know where you got that from. Maybe you can enlighten me and give me some more valuable information about Islam which I didnt previously know about.

Tell me, what is the position in strict Islamic society of a single woman with no family or male protector?

She is a responsibility of the Islamic State, there is no diminution of her rights. She deserves education, the right to marry, the right to be respected and treated with fairness and equity

I've been to Western university too. I know the comments my friends use to give at parties to females. She's mine.....I am going to do her tonight.....She's hot...etc.etc. Need I say more?

reply to post by Kailassa

The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150)

What commentators need to realize is that in Islam a captive woman as a concubine, has essentially same legal rights as a wife, this is surely distinct from the victims of abduction and rape. Remember, this is despite the fact that she is not a guest but a prisoner of war. First of all she is allocated to the soldier and then she has to go through the Iddah period of clearing the womb, which can take up to 1 month to ensure that she is not already pregnant, during this period no man may approach her. She has the right to be fed, clothed, and sheltered adequately at all times. After that period her master may approach her but he cannot force himself on her. He cannot have sex against her will. Equally she is not entitled legally to refuse without good reason, the exact same as a wife. But in the case that she does refuse, the relationship would naturally come to an end. Remember, even a slap on her face would mean in Islam necessitating her freedom.

www.aljazeerah.info... ce%20for%20Prisoners%20of%20War%20and%20Intolerance%20of%20Rape%20By%20Yamin%20Zakaria.htm

Once again, i would advise you to objectively research the matter and not jump to conclusions.

Originally posted by Atharee
reply to post by MarkAkaSilent

 

You are the original poster of this post right? You said you are a Christian right? So now that the proof is against you you are "banging your head against the wall" with me? If you attack Islam based on this incident, than you attack Moses and the other prophets for engaging the enemy in the same manner. As a Christian, you say Jesus is God so you are saying that Jesus was the same one who said:

BANG!!!BANG!!!BANG!!! Yes i quoted stories from the Koran, The Haddeths and The life of Muhammad but only as a reference to what Muslims still believe in and live by today. You keep quoting stories from the bible which have no bearing on todays Christian life. As Ive said before we do not have a religious law as such, only guidelines on how to live a good peaceful life and we're not severely punished if we stray from those guidelines.

[edit on 30/9/2008 by MarkAkaSilent]

reply to post by Islam_solutionforhumanity


Wow that's really a great way to show how well a woman is treated there made in to concubines. So being in a harem is not demeaning to a woman, and apparently you believe that a woman is inferior because they are not as logical according to your posts. So let me give you some advice if your going to argue how well a Muslim woman is treated try not to put them down in the process it kind of voids your whole argument. But is funny give you that

[edit on 10/1/08 by dragonridr]

Why don't you just look into the mirror. You ''true'' Christians are blaming the Qur'an for teaching violence while the bible is full of similar crap.

So what's your point?

reply to post by dragonridr


Being in a harem may be demeaning to a woman (even though this is debatable which we can debate if you want me to) but being given the same rights as a wife, EVEN THOUGH SHE IS A PRISONER OF WAR, surely must mean something to her. Why not just rape her and kill her like the others do, why should Islam treat her with respect? Thats something to think about. This is how well a non-Muslim prisoner of war is treated, we are not even talking about Muslim women _javascript:icon('')

I never said women are inferior. In Islam, men and women are considered equal in terms of earning reward in the hereafter (the main purpose) but at the same time we realize that men have their strengths and weaknesses and so do women. Different does NOT mean inferior.

Even considering the allegations that Islam mistreats the women, let me share something with you:

THE TIMES Tuesday, 9th November 1993 ’Why Are British Women Turning To Islam’ by Lucy Berrington

’Unprecedented numbers of British people, nearly all of them women, are converting to Islam at a time of deep divisions within the Anglican and Catholic churches. The rate of conversions has prompted predictions that Islam will rapidly become an important religious force in this country. “Within the next 20 years the number of British converts will equal or overtake the immigrant Muslim community that brought the faith here”, says Rose Kendrick, a religious education teacher at a Hull comprehensive and the author of a textbook guide to the Koran. She says: “Islam is as much a world faith as is Roman Catholicism. No one nationality claims it as its own”. Islam is also spreading fast on the continent and in America. In the United States, women converts outnumber men by four to one, and in Britain make up the bulk of the estimated 10, 000 to 20, 000 converts, forming part of a Muslim community of 1.5 million.

Some say the conversions are prompted by the rise of comparative religious education. The British media, offering what Muslims describe as a relentless bad press on all things Islamic, is also said to have helped. Westerners despairing of their own society – rising in crime, family breakdown, drugs and alcoholism- have come to admire the discipline and security of Islam. Many converts are former Christians disillusioned by the uncertainty of the church and unhappy with the concept of the Trinity and deification of Jesus.’

If women are treated so badly in Islam, why are all these educated and intelligent women converting? Who's brainwashing them? Thats food for thought.