Why didn't the USSR fake a moon landing?

Originally posted by mapsurfer_
What NASA *should* have done was put a solar beacon on the moon, which transmits some kind of data, even if only a "beep beep" from the moon. I truely don't believe that NASA had a clue that the credibility of missions would be in question 30+ years after the fact.

hoax believers would simply clsim that such a beacon was placed by ` unmanned robot probes `

they claim the laser miror array was not placed by hand [ appollo ]

so why would they accept that an active beacon was evidence of manned landinfs ?

reply to post by Phage


Phage:
The obvious answer to your original question is:
Because they would have been found out by their enemies, the USA.
The reciprocal is indeed also very true!

The more I read the moon landing hoax (stuff), the more apparent who in the argument was even alive during the 60's. And who wasn't.
And if you where old enough in 1969 to remember, and you still deny that the USA put men on the moon. I say your just trying to sell a book!
or you were stoned to a fare-thee-well. Or both.

There is no possible credible scenario that would have kept the Kremlin's dogs silent if they even had any morsel of the USA hoaxing the landing.
The Russians heard and saw the whole thing live...we gave them the S-band frequencies so that they could verify it for themselves.That was the whole mission. And from day 1, that mission was no secret.


The whole point of Apollo was to beat the ruskies to it! Nothing else! Not moon rocks, not pictures of the dark side, not frolicking around with a golf club.
Get them there, plant old glory, and get them home...alive if possible. Thats exactly what they (we) did. And it pissed off the Russians, so they gave up trying to send a cosmonaut to the moon.

Around 500,000 people worked directly or indirectly with Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo. To strap a saturn V to some very brave men's asses and leave the planet behind.

That is alot more cajones then any google searchin' snot nosed kid that won't/can't believe we did it, could ever muster .People died for that mission!
You spit on the memories of those brave men...I am ashamed for you.
(not you Phage)

I remember the whole cold war climate very well. The whole mission was just to plant Old Glory on the moon "not because it's easy, but because it WAS hard". After several landings, it lost it's magic with Americans.Kind of like the shuttle missions have today. I would bet you a case of beer that not 2 people in 10 you ask ,say at your local grocery store, would even know that the shuttle launched. We had many other social issues going on at the time. Hell, the TV cameras they took up with them were considered an added bonus to the mission, not mission critical.

Peace

Originally posted by Phage

One motive given for the USA to have faked one if not all of the moon landings was to "beat" the USSR in the Space Race. The USSR had the same, if not greater, capability to carry out such a massive deception on the people. Why didn't they fake a landing?

Thats like holding a race between two cars, the lights flash green, the broad drops her shirt and one car is gone down the lane finishing far ahead of the other.

Does the other car then finish and brag about how they finally finished, far behind the other??

reply to post by Phage


They don't have a desert that looks like the moon surface for the close shots. Not untill Chernoble

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
A question I have always had is;

"If the US faked a moon landing, why didnt all the competing countries "out" us?

"
Then they would'nt be able to tax the dog hair out of thier populations also

"Surely they had the technology, (telescopes) to be able to discern whether or not we are actually sending something to the moon?"

Ask any of the landing proponets the one about telescopes. They will tell you, we still don't have them. Like yeah.

"What would their motive be for allowing the US to appear to be technologically superior to them in their own peoples eyes and in the eyes of the rest of the world?"

You know that second or close would'nt count for much. A better question would be, why didn't they beat us?

"That question has always been the thing that has prevented me from believing the moon landing was a hoax."

You are free now to believe.

"I can see why our government might want to perpetuate such a hoax, and I can see that they COULD have pulled it over on us, as most of us dont have the means to check for ourselves, but on the entire world? "

This is why there is so much doubt.



[edit on 26-3-2009 by Donny 4 million]


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[edit on Thu Mar 26 2009 by Jbird]

This is a bit offtopic but when the Russians went to the dark side of the moon, what happened to them?

Originally posted by Zeptepi
"The more I read the moon landing hoax (stuff), the more apparent who in the argument was even alive during the 60's. And who wasn't."

I had just returned from the Nam.

"And if you where old enough in 1969 to remember, and you still deny that the USA put men on the moon. I say your just trying to sell a book!
or you were stoned to a fare-thee-well. Or both."

Book ok but not about the moon Hoax. Drug free all my life.

"There is no possible credible scenario that would have kept the Kremlin's dogs silent if they even had any morsel of the USA hoaxing the landing.
The Russians heard and saw the whole thing live...we gave them the S-band frequencies so that they could verify it for themselves.That was the whole mission. And from day 1, that mission was no secret."

Hearing is not beleiving. They watch movies in Moscow too.

'The whole point of Apollo was to beat the ruskies to it! Nothing else! Not moon rocks, not pictures of the dark side, not frolicking around with a golf club.
Get them there, plant old glory, and get them home...alive if possible. Thats exactly what they (we) did. And it pissed off the Russians, so they gave up trying to send a cosmonaut to the moon."

Ask Phage and some of his cronies if this is true. Because we supossedly beat them 6 1/2 times. We kicked them silly and did it again and again
and----

The answer to this is-- that whilst NASA was busy on the set back in the desert--- the Ruskies were closing in.
Nasa took the chance by opening the curtain for the Great Preimere.


Around 500,000 people worked directly or indirectly with Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo. To strap a saturn V to some very brave men's asses and leave the planet behind."

This is true. They just didn't land on the moon.

"That is alot more cajones then any google searchin' snot nosed kid that won't/can't believe we did it, could ever muster .People died for that mission!"

It takes the same amout of nads just to train and die here on earth.

"You spit on the memories of those brave men...I am ashamed for you."

I know no Hoaxer that ever tried to take anything at all away from the dedicated folks of those programs. Most are upset with the goverment lying to them. You do know it lies to us do you not.

"I would bet you a case of beer that not 2 people in 10 you ask ,say at your local grocery store, would even know that the shuttle launched. "

Lets just crack a beer together and be glad that we are here perpetuating the fact and myth. Casual readers just might some day land thier butts up there using our ranting as the reason.

"We had many other social issues going on at the time. "

I remember well, I just came home from a usless Us war. Like our goverment didn;t lie to us about that either.
If you were a college student it was probably you that spit at me and my brothers. What 70,000 dead give me a break.

Peace

[edit on 26-3-2009 by Donny 4 million]


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[edit on Thu Mar 26 2009 by Jbird]

Sorry never read many other posts and this is just a shot in the dark but maybe its because they thought the US were actually going to the moon (I dont know what to believe with that but keep an open mind). And if the US were going to the moon wouldnt they be able to tell if the USSR were en-route. And if they lied about it the US would shame them and prove they didnt go?

Or maybe they did go and it was all hush hush?

Phage good question,

BUt I think the answer russia did not fake the moon landing is very simple. You said in your OP that the soviet union was even more capable of pulling off the deception. In aspects of secrecy yes. But I feel that your premise on that statement is wrong.

I think soviet moon fakery never happened simply because it would be impossible for them to have pulled it off. the Soviet Union had no real motion picture industry. No expertise in special effects. No real experience with making convincing sets. It would all be something that they would have to master in a few years. they can't go to ANYBODY outside of russia to pull it off or help them out or even to consult because they would absolutely talk. because at the time the only cultures that had any realistic experience or ability to pull that off were all part of NATO or whatever the equivalent was at the time.

Think about it. they didn't know how to fake a moonwalk on camera. hell I doubt they even knew how to set up or rig a set to do anything fancy like that. They had no special effects. they didn't even have the knack for working a camera to make some major motion picture like a faked moon landing along with space walks etc... It's arguable that the US didn't either at the time or if they did it was at the far envelope of what they were capable of. faking a moon landing filming wise would have been possible by the US but a stretch at that time. The soviet union would have to on their own or by reading the equivalent of super advance film making and cinematography for idiots book series. Then beaten a several decade long learning curve in just a 10th of the time the rest of the human race could do it and in a non repressed secretive open manner exchanging ideas. I doubt they could beat a 45 year learning curve with no help, no workable knowledge, no infrastructure or film industry to borrow on. And not just do better but do it in a tiny fraction of the time. the soviet union, was proud, industrius, surely capable but not that capable.

Maybe I'm being really biased but somehow I simply do not believe that they could have pulled it off. they just didn't know how.

My argument though has nothing to do with soviet technical might regarding their space program which I believe was plenty advanced for that age and time.

I'm also not arguing that the soviet union didn't know how to build and operate exceptional cameras. I'm just saying film making is an art. and to pull off the moon landing fake you would have to be very advanced at that art, and the soviet union was not then, maybe not even now. Not without outside help from the cultures that actually developed or had that art. and that culture was the western culture. they would have had to go to europe or america for help in that endeavor.

reply to post by BASSPLYR


I love it give more of it!

reply to post by ignorant_ape


There is not much to prove that man was ever there. Almost any thing that is there could have arrived by robotics. Even the rover tracks.
I think a foot print would be the only thing to prove human visitation.
And even that would have to be presented with very convincing evidence.

[edit on 26-3-2009 by Donny 4 million]

Why didn't the USSR fake a moon landing? The answer is very simple. They did not want to look like fools when someone got there for real and seen they had never been there. Could you imagine the disgrace they would have to face when the truth came out. When someone walked around looking for the foot prints and equipment left behind and found nothing. The shame would be too much and they knew that sooner or later in the end the truth would come out and that is why they did not do it.

Now did the US fake a moon landing? I do not know but if we did then the above statement is for us as well. Time will tell.

reply to post by Donny 4 million

It takes the same amout of nads just to train and die here on earth.

Yes it do brother..and I sincerely thank you for your service to our country!
Indeed, I am thankful we can share a case of beer and rant about this stuff!
I brought some popcorn too..

You do know it lies to us do you not.

Yep, I remember tricky dick and 4 dead in Ohio too. Yes, of that, I have no doubt. Just not about Apollo.
Topic:

Hearing is not beleiving. They watch movies in Moscow too.

The folks in Moscow were not watching this on TV or a movie.

I am going to attempt to explain to you and other readers how the Russians verified Apollo and the landings for themselves, and have never disputed it for 40years now. In the words of the immortal Ralph Cramdon (Jackie Gleason) Too the Moon Alice!!

They were monitoring it with a type of Radar.S-Band microwave transmissions.
or Unified S-band system (USB) The specifications (including the specific frequencies) of this system was released to the entire world in April 1965 at the IEEE International Electronics Symposium.

history.nasa.gov...
The release of this information was done with the specific purpose of letting the world know how to watch this show live. Yes, the Russians got a copy of this paper.And I would not be surprised if they got a sparkling new Collins receiving system from us. Just to be sure they didn't miss the show. However, they were more than capable of building their own!

The reason this system was called "unified" S-Band, was because it could deliver several kinds of information about the mission, modulated on 1 carrier frequency. These are Namely:
1) Ranging (this includes speed and location)
2)Digital command data (controls onboard systems and returns systems status)AKA telemetry
3)Voice subcarriers
4)Television
5)Biomedical data

A total of 3 of these S-Band carriers.(microwave frequencies)

For the sake of this demonstration , we are in Moscow in 1969 sippin' our beer and pointing our newly built S-band Microwave antenna. watchin' the movie live.
I will concentrate on number(1) Ranging. This is the most important part of verification.
Where is the spacecraft, and how fast is it going relative to the Earth?


This part cannot be faked when using this system. The frequency of the carrier is known with great precession. As the spacecraft travels through space toward the moon, Its speed changes. It decreases until it arrives at at point between the Earth and the moon where there is mutual gravity between them. Then re-accelerates the rest of the way to the moon.(The Russians knew all about Trans lunar injection en.wikipedia.org... . They were the first to do it with the Luna 1 on January 2, 1959.)
The receiver on the ground measures the speed by comparing the recived frequency to the calibrated standard carrier frequency. Thus, the speed can be calculated with great precession. This is exactly how a police radar gun catches us speeding. Doppler shift.

Now, You have the speed.Wow, It slowed down just in the right place, then sped back up just when it should have. And you might think, well that would be easy to fake, with a geosynchronous satellite that just changes it's transmit frequency. Nope, The other part of this system is all about the aiming of your ground based antenna. It has, because of the microwave frequency, a fairly narrow beamwidth. You have to have it pointed at the spacecraft. This spacecraft is headed to the moon, so you have to point your antenna in the general direction of the Moon.(following the known trans lunar injection ellipse) The moon is not geosynchronous, and due to celestial mechanics (which I will not go into here), It would have been much more difficult for NASA to put a frequency agile satellite in an orbit that matches the orbit of our Moon. From all locations on Earth (remember, we are in Russia now, with our satellite dish antenna pointed at the Moon watching the show.)In fact, it would HAVE to be on the Moon. The first part of the trip, the spacecraft makes a semi elliptical orbit around the Earth before it heads to the moon. So, for that part we are pretty busy pointin' our big dish at the thing while it's in orbit. Then when it gets to the Moon, we can relax and drink our beers cause all we got to do now is just keep pointed at the Moon.

Dang..they did it...here.... have another beer.... and pass the popcorn.

P.S. I have never spat on anyone, and least of all anyone who has laid his/her life on the line for our country.
we all lost friends and family in that god awful war.

Good luck with your book!

Wow!!! Great point with that last post there. What about the doppler effect on the communications signals from the spacecraft. Very, very good point. pretty much seals it right there that something broadcasting human voices was actually somewhere in the vicinity of the moon. Doubt they scripted the entire thing. put it on tape and had the other actors on earth at mission control talk back to the tape with the script being so convincing and lifelike as if there really was conversation going back and forth. That would have been unlikely.

reply to post by BASSPLYR


Thank you for pointing out what I did not emphatically express. And wished I had.
That yes, because all of the transmissions were on 1 carrier frequency, the doppler shift of all of the voice transmissions and TV would have the same shift. Even while on the moon. It is moving also. You summed up my point well.Thanks.

Peace

The S-Band tracking system had an angle resolution of 0.025degrees
With a Doppler speed resolution of 0.1 Meters/Sec
and a distance resolution of 1.5 Meters

Edit to: fix my poor spelling and to add resolution limits of the system

[edit on 27-3-2009 by Zeptepi]

Nobody ever mentions that seperate transmission to australia , ie wasnt beamed to europe or US .. where the can of coke was seen on the set .. sorry .. lunar surface . I dont know or care that much about if they landed , just that account , if true , means it had to be faked .

reply to post by Zeptepi


Just a quicky. Thanks for the education, I love micro wave. Seems like you may have some Turkish soil in your ole brogans.
I won't argue with your info except one point.
I don't think that it demenstrates a couple guys egressed that craft, did the hookie- pookie in the moon dust poped back into there tin can and hooked up with a speeding bullet. All for the first time with outa scratch
All filmed and broadcast live for the very first time.
Skol

Originally posted by Donny 4 million
poped back into there tin can and hooked up with a speeding bullet. All for the first time with outa scratch

This was hardly the first time a successful launch and rendezvous had been made with a "tin can and speeding bullet":
en.wikipedia.org...
They rendezvoused on Gemini VIa/VII (as well as later missions with unmanned target vehicles) using a computer that was significantly less advanced than the one in the LEM and CM on Apollo. They would later practice separation and rendezvous in earth orbit with the LEM and CM, as well as in orbit of the moon, all before finally landing.

[edit on 27-3-2009 by ngchunter]

Originally posted by Donny 4 million
reply to post by Zeptepi

 

Just a quicky. Thanks for the education, I love micro wave. Seems like you may have some Turkish soil in your ole brogans.
I won't argue with your info except one point.

I don't think that it demenstrates a couple guys egressed that craft, did the hookie- pookie in the moon dust poped back into there tin can and hooked up with a speeding bullet. All for the first time with outa scratch

All filmed and broadcast live for the very first time.

Sorry (EDIT) didn't mean to quote the entire post (still practicing) but I DID put the bit into 'quotes' which I wished to discuss.

Donny, I believe your comment shows a certain lack of clarity...in other words, you should try to remember the huge number of hours spent in training, practicing over and over....As ngchunter pointed out, orbital rendezvous had been shown to be possible, it was practiced firstly in Earth orbit. Apollo 8, 9 and 10 circumnavigated the Moon, without landing. ALL to test proof of concept with the equipment. Apollo 9 and 10 carried a LEM with them....they practiced docking and undocking...they flew the LEM in orbit, then rendezvoused, and came back ALL in preparation for Apollo 11.

The Russians watched, and probably fumed....because they could not get their heavy lift rockets to work without blowing up on the pad.

Their huge failures are just coming to light, since they're more open now....they killed hundreds, if not thousands of people attempting to beat the USA to the Moon.


[edit on 3/27/0909 by weedwhacker]

EDIT again....oh dear, I didn't quite do that correcctly....(reading instructions again...)

[edit on 3/27/0909 by weedwhacker]
(bbcode)



[edit on Fri Mar 27 2009 by Jbird]

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
A question I have always had is;

If the US faked a moon landing, why didnt all the competing countries "out" us?
...

The entire world knew that Iraq didn't have WMDs. Why didn't the "competing countries 'out' us"?