Take the Zeitgeist Challenge

reply to post by MatrixProphet


No, I'm not a scholar. But I can and do read.

Lets just say that there are plenty of religious, Biblical, and linguistic scholars out there who do not agree with Bart Ehrman and his ideas. And most of them will tell you point blank that there is really nothing in the book "Misquoting Jesus" that really changes anything. Just more "what if" scenarios while making elephant mounds out of ant hills.

Was that the "research" that you wanted me to do, or did you have something else in mind?

reply to post by Lightmare


Why don't you read for yourself instead of relying on theologians? I have read his book and countless others because I thirst for accurate truth. Do you think I am going to take your word or Bigwhammy's word over Bart Ehrman's? What qualifies either one of you to be my authority or anyone else's on ATS? Are you afraid of what you might learn?

I used to be very religious but found I needed more. What he says has a ring of truth to it. It makes complete logical sense, and I might add...many scholars do agree!

Have you read books on the Synoptic Gospels? The Gospel According to Mary? The Lost Gospel of Judas Iscariot? Paul and the Invention of Christianity?

Religion encourages blind faith, I know, for I have been there! They discourage reading outside the faith and want one to read only "their" research. I admonish you to look outside and see if you are missing anything and "not" take someone else's word for it. Don't be a sheep!

reply to post by MatrixProphet


Perhaps you can throw the blind faith accusation at some Christians but not me. I do read for myself. I do a lot of reading on textual criticism and translation. The more I read, the more interesting it gets.

Are you telling me that Bart Ehrman is more credible than the theologians and linguistic scholars who don't buy into fringe theories? On what grounds do you make that claim? Do you honestly think he is the only scholar who can read the ancient languages? Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to knock your favorite researcher. I'm just saying don't put so much blind faith in an author who obviously has an axe to grind.

Personally, I prefer the writings of Michael S Heiser. He knows the Biblical languages and has rightly pointed out many mistranslations in our English language Bibles. He has discussed at length the implications that those mistranslations have on modern Christian theology. However, at no point does his work ever deteriorate into agenda driven, fringe New Age theories. No axe to grind. Just honest research. The way it should be.

As for extra-Biblical writings, I've read some of the Apocrypha and some of the book of Enoch. I need to get the book of Enoch in an actual book form so I can relax and actually absorb it instead of trying to read it on the computer. What I've read of it so far is amazing.

As for the Lost Gospels, that is still on my "to do" list. I am aware of some serious controversy with the Gospel of Judas though. It seems that the people who were hired to translate it made some intentional "mistakes" in the translation process. They did so in an attempt to paint Judas as the "good guy". But apparently the "good guy Judas" was nowhere to found in the original text. It was inserted in there by the translators. But don't take my word for it. Read the article for yourself.
www.michaelsheiser.com...


And just so you know, I haven't spent my whole life as some timid little Christian boy who never bothered to venture outside of the faith. I spent about two years dabbling in the New Age, Wicca, Shamanism, and whatever else looked interesting at the time. It has only been recently that I made my grand return to the Christian faith. My decision to return to Christianity was based on a lot of reading, analysis, and contemplation.

In all honesty, I do hold some views that many of my fellow Christians may not agree with. But I can assure you that my belief in Christ is based on evidence, not blind faith. My faith is anything but blind.

Originally posted by Lightmare


In all honesty, I do hold some views that many of my fellow Christians may not agree with. But I can assure you that my belief in Christ is based on evidence, not blind faith. My faith is anything but blind.

dont take this the wrong way but may i ask what evidence. i have been looking for this evidence of christ. i think it would solve this bet once and for all if you had evidence. can you please share?

reply to post by NOTurTypical


did you read the links i provided? you really should. i think you'll enjoy them, but read all three. in fact, read all his material, i have it linked for you in that post (it's the last link).

Originally posted by re22666
dont take this the wrong way but may i ask what evidence. i have been looking for this evidence of christ. i think it would solve this bet once and for all if you had evidence. can you please share?

Please understand that evidence is not the same thing as proof. Proof is irrefutable, while evidence is still debatable.

I offered a few examples non-Biblical textual evidence in an eariler post.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Click the link to see the post. Keep in mind that it is evidence, not absolute proof. I stress that because you seem to be looking for absolute PHYSICAL proof of a SPIRITUAL reality. That is something you will not ever find. All you can do is examine the evidence and consider the implications that the evidence suggests.

You should also take stock of your own heart. Ask yourself, Is there a supernatural reality that lurks beyond the veil of this decaying mortal realm? If your answer is "no" or "maybe" then you will never find any real answers because you are not really looking. If your answer is "yes" then you will need to ask yourself what effect is that likely to have on you. Will you stand boldly before the creator of the universe on the day of your death? Why or why not? Keep in mind the textual evidence while you consider these things.

The important thing is NOT to figure out what you believe. The important thing to know is WHY you believe it.

www.pocm.info...

I accept PayPal.

[edit on 11-8-2008 by DJM8507]

reply to post by Bigwhammy


Thank you, you just did my research for me. There is a guy at work that asked the same question as I. And said Nowhere in the Bible it says this. So now I can take this and PROVE to him he's wrong.

Still, Mormons refer to themselves as brothers(brethren) and sisters too. Anyway......

reply to post by shihulud
Thank you for stating this. I admit I was in err. It does in fact appear that the illiterate Apostles had to dictate to people who could write.

It is still an eyewitness account though, much like a recorded or written testimony from a soon to die witness, or a witness that cannot be present in a court trial.

If a person is writing themselves, or sitting across the table from someone writing who they are dictating to it still is their account.

And Luke did too meet Jesus, he was a teenager during his lifetime. That is why his account deals a great deal with the healing miracles of Jesus because that was his big interest, he later became a physician.

But, thanks again for correcting my error. Point noted and starred.

reply to post by justamomma

Uhm, okay...... correct my ignorance oh mighty christian.. don't catholics call themselves christian? and don't christians and catholics use the same bible, thus the same bible was kept in the hands of the higher "ups" before being putting out into the public's hands? I am failing to see how your argument is relevant.

What is the need for the patronization? Can we not have a civilized discussion?


"I am failing to see how your arguement is relevant."

Here is my point: "Catholicism is NOT Christianity." Now let me explain it's relevance:

Practically all precepts of the Roman Catholic religion contradict the Bible repeatedly. It is the largest cult in the world and most preachers will not openly say so because it is so large. For Catholics who read this, please remember this: the person that tells you the truth is the one that cares.

For a glimpse of the atrocities committed by the Roman Catholic religion, do a net search on the Inquisition or the Crusades. During the Inquisition, the Catholic religion killed millions. Why? Primarily to suppress any and all opposition to the pope. Side "benefits" included taking the material wealth of its victims and showing the pope's power. The Catholic Inquisitors tortured, crippled, burned, and imprisioned millions of people. Whatever happened to love your enemies? (Matthew 5:44)

www.jesus-is-lord.com...

One can clearly see that the traditions of the Catholic church are not at all Biblical.

Now you know why they don't let the masses read the scriptures for themselves... they are afraid the people will realize they are false doctrines.

Catholicism is a cult, which is sad, the average precticing Catholic I believe truly wants to be a Christian. That's sad. That is exactly what the Pharisees did to the Jews, put their own made up rules into the Truth God have given them.

Originally posted by justamomma
reply to post by Bigwhammy

 

thanks for the clarification. so, how are you sure which christian way is the right way? Catholicism aside, there are many different ways of worship for christians?

I thought if there was any sect that was close to the real deal for being pure christianity it would be the amish. I like their way too..... not the worship or the clothes, but the lifestyle.

anyway, kind of off topic I know, but just wondering if one of you woudn't mind answering for me.

The only authority for Christianity is the words of Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 2:15 : "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

We are told to study, study, study the scriptures. That way is a man comes along and tries to preach something we can check to see if that doctrine is Biblical or not.

I read a book not too long ago about how the Amish came to be and they were a break away from the reformed church. They felt the reformed church was too lax in their views. IN other words.... sin, ask forgiveness, wa-la!! magically you are "ok." They were tortured and murdered by the reformed church which had become a ward of the gov't by choice.

Seems that christianity is closely associated w/ the gov't and vice versa again. So, already we are seeing the affects of this. Christians run to the gov't for protection rather than keeping it seperate.

For instance, abortion; banning homosexual marriages, drugs, the 10 commandment issues, the use of God in the pledge of allegience, etc etc.

So modern day christianity is becoming corrupt once again or, the way I like to say it..... modern day christianity is corrupting.

According to the pure Amish doctrine, Christians such as those participating in this thread will be going to hell. How do you all feel about that?? They keep themselves seperate so as to not be corrupted and they don't believe in pushing their faith onto others for personal gain (whether that gain is personal entitlement, to "feel" they are right, and/or to dictate to others [through govt' ways or non gov't ways] how they should live their lives, etc)

My point is, that even in the christian doctrine there seems to be contention on who is really going to "heaven" and who isn't. If any are right, I would have to say that it was the Amish bc they are the only ones who live our their faith in the purest sense (and I say that as a general statement... not talking about the individuals necessarily)

reply to post by Lightmare


Please re-read my post as you will see that I mention him along with other scholars. I do not adhere to any one individual but look for truth in many.

Please look to:

Keith F. Nickle
Elaine Pagels
Hyam Maccoby
Miriam therese Winter
Michael Baigent
Hank Hanegraaff

In recommending these authors along with others I would admonish all to use spiritual insight in reading these books from these authors as they are only human. Also, the Apocrypha, and the many other lost books of the Bible.

The truth is the truth no matter its source! When you try to defend religious doctrine be prepared to go up against ones such as myself who have very open eyes and have been searching for many years outside religion. There is so much new information coming out that is irrefutable. It just makes too much sense!

I was always taught that in the end of times new enlightenment would be revealed ie, apocalypse = a revealing. You and the other evangelicals are up against this new light. Many like me are not afraid to go up against everything we have been taught. We are searchers, searchers for new light, new truths. Unfortunately, you could get "left behind" because of credulity.

And certainly there are many, many theologians that are "behind" but probably do know much of this information, but don't care, just collect the money and power until it all comes crashing down. Just as there are scientists that cannot agree amongst themselves, the same is true with Bible scholars.

Choose your team!

reply to post by Bigwhammy


As you are committed follower and believer of Jesus and the Bible,is there any point trying to prove to you that the documentary is right??

If evidence was found to back up the theory that Jesus is based on sun gods would you even believe it? I think you would say that it was false,incorrect,a hoax,misinterpretation,or maybe all 4.

You wouldn't want to believe in anything that could shake the foundations of your faith,or destroy it altogether.

Originally posted by justamomma
I read a book not too long ago about how the Amish came to be and they were a break away from the reformed church. They felt the reformed church was too lax in their views. IN other words.... sin, ask forgiveness, wa-la!! magically you are "ok." They were tortured and murdered by the reformed church which had become a ward of the gov't by choice.

Seems that christianity is closely associated w/ the gov't and vice versa again. So, already we are seeing the affects of this. Christians run to the gov't for protection rather than keeping it seperate.

For instance, abortion; banning homosexual marriages, drugs, the 10 commandment issues, the use of God in the pledge of allegience, etc etc.

So modern day christianity is becoming corrupt once again or, the way I like to say it..... modern day christianity is corrupting.

According to the pure Amish doctrine, Christians such as those participating in this thread will be going to hell. How do you all feel about that?? They keep themselves seperate so as to not be corrupted and they don't believe in pushing their faith onto others for personal gain (whether that gain is personal entitlement, to "feel" they are right, and/or to dictate to others [through govt' ways or non gov't ways] how they should live their lives, etc)

My point is, that even in the christian doctrine there seems to be contention on who is really going to "heaven" and who isn't. If any are right, I would have to say that it was the Amish bc they are the only ones who live our their faith in the purest sense (and I say that as a general statement... not talking about the individuals necessarily)

If they are teaching other things they are teaching "salvation by works" which isn't biblical. I can quote if you want.

And there are many sects supporting the government, I sure DON'T. Our government has over 600 FEMA concentration camps, fully staffed, and ready to go once the antichrist is revealed to the world.

Google "FEMA Death Camps."

Our governement is tripping over themselves to usher in the NWO. The Christians who support it have blinders on. Sheep basically.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

If they are teaching other things they are teaching "salvation by works" which isn't biblical. I can quote if you want.

We are saved by faith and by the good works of the gospel.

What doth it profit,my brethren,though a man say he hath faith,and have not works? can faith save him? –James 2:14

Yea,a man may say,Thou hast faith,and I have works:shew me thy faith without thy works,and I will shew thee my faith by my works. –James 2:18

Was not Abraham our father justified by works? You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rabab the harlot also justified by works? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.James 2:21-25

Many people quote verses that use the words justified and righteousness in connection with faith,such as;

Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."

Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."

Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."

Yet justified and righteousness do not mean the same thing as salvation.

Salvation is the deliverance from the power or penalty of sin and evil.
Justified is to be right or valid.
Righteousness is to be Morally upright;without guilt or sin.

The Bible does not teach that people are saved by works of the Old Testament law of Moses, for we read in Romans Chapter 3, verse 20, that "by the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight". From Colossians Chapter 2, verse 14, we learn that the law of Moses was nailed to the cross of Christ and is no longer bound upon anyone. We know that the only hope for salvation for lost humanity today is through the gospel of Christ. We do not propose to be saved by the works of the law, but through the works of faith and the labor of love in obedience to Christ.

While the Bible says: "By the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified", it also says in James Chapter 2, verse 24: "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith only." 'These works then must not be the works of the law, but are the works of faith revealed in the gospel of Christ. The law of Moses is dead and its works mean nothing today, but the works of the gospel mean much.


There are many Bible passages that show the essentiality of faith, that we are saved by faith, justified by it, and so on. Every one of these passages is to be believed and accepted. But there is one similar thing about all these passages on faith, not one single passage ever says we are saved by faith only. There are not such passages in the Bible.

www.bible.ca...

The "Sun God" elements of the Jesus story are easy to explain

They were applied to Jesus the Christ retrospectively; his birth date, the virgin birth, the symbolism of the cross and so on

Jesus the Christ existed, but his recorded history has been embellished with ancient sun worship motifs for reasons as yet unknown

reply to post by jakyll


You're not understanding the context of those verses. Basically it is this. A man cannot prove to another man if he has a true faith or not if it doesn't change his life. However, all men can see if a person has a true faith or not by his works.

A saving faith will produce good works. To the layman's eyes, he cannot tell if a tree is an apple tree until it brings forth apples.

Here is a fantastic article to clear up the misunderstanding of those verses. Lemme know if you still have concerns okay my friend?

Here

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

However, all men can see if a person has a true faith or not by his works.

Wow, sounds like 99.9% of modern American Christians are in trouble...

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
reply to post by justamomma

 

Ridiculous... I have every right and even a moral obligation to expose frauds and charlatans. Jesus went into the temple and violently overturned the tables of the con men...

So, you are likening yourself to Jesus?