Why do many claime that there is no evidence at all?

After reading this article I have a couple of questions.

1. Is english your first language?
2. Are you paid to write?
3. do you own a spell checker?

Intriguing thread - thanks for posting (both the OP and all respondents).

For what it's worth, here's my take on the premise of this issue:

Hard science requires TANGIBLE evidence to establish fact (proof). Most of the "evidence' presented so far in this field are reduced to things such as grainy photos, second-hand reports, obscure 'eyewitness accounts', "testimony" from good (and bad) folks from all walks of life ("experts" to morons and back again).

A detailed report from an air force pilot, astronomer, or president is not tangible evidence. I'm not stating these people are lying or telling the truth or that they misinterpreted what they saw - how can I? - I wasn't there.

An object flying over a city witnessed by thousands of people (e.g. PHX '97) is perhaps fantastic and magnificent and may even be the real thing. But it's not tangible evidence.

Science requires the ability to be able to TEST hypotheses (or samples, tissue, artifacts, etc.), preferably by several independent labs simultaneously. Where are the samples? Where is the tissue? Where are the artifacts? Please don't misunderstand - I'm not a skeptic or debunker - merely a "UFO/Alien Agnostic" - we simply do not have (at least mainstream, public-domain scientists do not have) access to such things to test them, to validate them, to confirm or deny their origin or composition.

Science requires repeatable results. This may sound trivial, even counter-intuitive, but few scientists will come to your defense when you say, e.g., an "Alien craft lands here", if no matter how many times the scientist(s) join you for some reason the alien craft never re-appears again.

As many have said here on ATS and elsewhere, and always worth repeating, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". If I say I am in daily contact with my alien pal, "Joe", and yet I can not produce a single bit of verifiable, validating, as-yet-unknown, evidence to substantiate the claim, then "Joe" exists for me alone, in spite of the emphatic, heart-felt communications I pass to you through him. "Joe" may be real, he may not. He would definitely feel "real" to me - but I can't blame you if "Joe" will not or can not, teleport me to a meeting with Congress, levitate me off the ground, buzz CNN/FOX HQ with his craft on demand, present himself for an interview at the local university, or any other of a number of satisfying tests to confirm his existence.

Now, I happen to believe, as many do here, that the Universe is literally teeming with life. I also suspect that the governments and their private confidants are in possession of knowledge regarding this topic that is being withheld from us, likely for nefarious reasons I have yet to discern.

Nevertheless, although I've seen some things I can't explain, and I'm sure many, many others around the globe have seen some things far more incredible, to date most of us, and most scientists, are still waiting for something to touch, examine, interact with.

Until that happens, I'm afraid, many will have no choice but to resign themselves to your thread title: There is no (hard) evidence at all...

As long as the dark ops boys swoop in and cart off and sanitize every scrap that touches the ground, including the ground itself, we'll have very little to work with...

In the meantime, my signature pretty much sums things up...

Thanks again - always good to think on this issue now-and-then...




[edit on 8/1/2008 by Outrageo]

I tend to return back to what I think the real question is. With the huge amount of evidence available in the form of eyewitness reports (from experts and otherwise), ground traces, radar tracks, weird freaky stuff like psychic communication, time dilation, and so on... why the paucity of good, testable, definitive evidence? I mean, after 50 years and tens of thousands of sightings, we still don't even know what we're seeing evidence of!

It's difficult for me to personally believe that the Army is so awesomely skilled at picking up UFO evidence that literally none has been found by the general public to make it to the news. I've been in the military, and believe me, they don't have that kind of skill. You can poke around the fields in east Texas and still pick up Space Shuttle debris.

It's really almost as if these things aren't entirely real. They show up, they vanish literally without a trace. The only way I can figure they're able to do this is because maybe they're not entirely real as we understand reality, or maybe they have some way of manipulating spacetime we don't understand.

Hard to test such a hypothesis, though, so it's not very good, I admit. I wouldn't even know where to start.

[edit on 1-8-2008 by Nohup]

Good post. Here's some statements made by various people of import:

Honoree Paul Hellyer, former Canadian Defense Minister, told MSNBC:

After reading a book called The Day After Roswell by Col. Phillip Corso that unidentified flying saucers are in fact real, as real as the airplanes flying over your head and that there has been a monumental cover-up for more than half a century… I have concluded unequivocally that the people that claim they have either seen UFOs or have seen classified documents about UFOs or have seen wreckage from the crash at Roswell on or about July 4, 1947, are the ones telling the truth.

At a National Press Club event in 2007, White House Chief of Staff John Podesto:

I think its time to open the books on questions that have remained in the dark on the question of government investigations of UFOs. Its time to find out what the truth really is that’s out there. We ought to do it, really, because it’s right. We ought to do it, because the American people, quite frankly, can handle the truth. And we ought to do it because it’s the law.

Senior FAA Head of Accidents and Investigations John Callahan during the same National Press Club event speaks of a UFO incident involving a Japan airliner, Flight 1648, which occurred in Alaska on November 18th, 1986. At the time John Callahan was head of investigations for the FAA. He produced evidence of the incident during his speaking. He even presents the FAA original voice tapes of the air traffic controllers involved in the incident. Also presented by John was a copy of the original video the FAA had taken during the investigation as well as the target radar printout from the computer data during the incident.

New York, 1985, Astronaut Colonel L. Gordon Cooper addresses a United Nations panel discussion on the topics of extraterrestrials and UFOs:

I believe that these extraterrestrial vehicles and their crews are visiting this planet from other planets which obviously are a little more technically advanced than we are here on Earth. I feel that we need to have a top level, coordinated program to scientifically collect and analyze data from all over the earth concerning any type of encounter, and to determine how best to interface with these visitors in a friendly fashion. We may first have to show them that we have learned to resolve our problems by peaceful means, rather than warfare, before we are accepted as fully qualified universal team members. This acceptance would have tremendous possibilities of advancing our world in all areas. Certainly then it would seem that the UN has a vested interest in handling this subject properly and expeditiously.

If the UN agrees to pursue this project, and to lend their credibility to it, perhaps many more well qualified people will agree to step forth and provide help and information.

For many years I have lived with a secret, in a secrecy imposed on all specialists and astronauts. I can now reveal that every day, in the USA, our radar instruments capture objects of form and composition unknown to us. And there are thousands of witness reports and a quantity of documents to prove this, but nobody wants to make them public.

Famous Astronaut Buzz Aldrin Tells Fox News’ Neil Cavuto in an interview in 2007:

We just about could have said, ‘Look, we see a UFO out the window going along with us.’ You know what would have happened? The public would have gone crazy! We were smart enough to say, ‘Where is the upper stage rocket? We think we might be looking at that out the window.

Colonel Sergio Candiota da Silva of the Brazilian Air Force was the Assistant to the Minister of Aeronautics in December 19, 1988 when he stated:

His Excellency recognizes the importance of the [UFO] matter, to the extent that within the Ministry of Aeronautics there exists a Bureau in charge of studying the matter, receiving, analyzing and archiving chronologically the phenomena observed in Brazilian airspace that comes to the attention of this Ministry.

Senator Barry Goldwater Sr. (R-Arizona), a US Air Force General and Presidential Candidate had written in a letter dated April 11, 1979 to Lee M. Graham:

It is true that I was denied access to a facility at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton, Ohio, because I never got in. I can't tell you what was inside. We both know about the rumors (concerning a captured UFO and crew members).
Apart from that, let me make my position clear: I do not believe that we are the only planet of some two billion that exist to have life on it. I have never seen what I would call a UFO, but I have intelligent friends who have, so I can sort of argue either way.
- Don Berliner, UFO Briefing Document, 1995

Sarah McClendon, a White House Correspondent in a press release on March 30, 1998:

The real danger to the U.S. and perhaps this whole planet is the government has placed such a heavy blanket of secrecy upon this issue. So much secrecy, those in government who have knowledge showing UFOs are identifiable feel the subject cannot be discussed by those in the know without serious repercussions. Others are afraid their friends and co-workers will think they are crazy if they even so much as insinuate that UFOs are identifiable as manned craft from outside the earth. This particularly applies to newspaper editors and publishers, reporters and analysts. Thus the U.S. is denying itself the chance to learn more about UFOs or to encourage research despite the fact the U. S. stands to gain from such discussions. . . .Not publicized but true is that the Clinton administration, soon after coming to office, had many briefings on the subject. Laurance Rockefeller provided the information for the President and Mrs. Clinton. Others provided documents and verbal briefings to presidential advisors Jack Gibbons (science), Bruce Lindsay (personal), Anthony Lake (national security) and Vice President Albert Gore. About the same time a three hour briefing was given by Dr. Steven Greer to the sitting Director of the CIA, Admiral Woolsey. . . .After the Roswell incident, the Air Force replied to reporters' inquiries that this was all part of research using weather balloons and other equipment. [Colonel] Corso and hundreds of others who work or have worked in secret defense and scientific agencies, are willing to swear under oath that alien craft are repeatedly penetrating our airspace.

cont.

President Harry S. Truman at a White House Press Conference, April 4, 1950:

I can assure you that flying saucers, given that they exist, are not constructed by any power on earth.
- Don Berliner, UFO Briefing Document, 1995

President Gerald Ford while a congressman had sent a letter to L. Mendel Rivers. At the time, March 28, 1966, L. Mendel Rivers was Chairman of the Armed Services Committee:

No doubt, you have noted the recent flurry of newspaper stories about unidentified flying objects (UFOs). I have taken special interest in these accounts because many of the latest reported sightings have been in my home state of Michigan… Because I think there much be substance to some of these reports and because I believe the American people are entitled to a more thorough explanation than has been given them by the Air Force to date, I am proposing that either the Science and Astronautics Committee or the Armed Services Committee of the House, schedule hearings on the subject of UFOs and invite testimony from both the executive branch of the Government and some of the persons who claim to have seen UFOs… In the firm belief that the American public deserves a better explanation than that thus far given by the Air Force, I strongly recommend that there be a committee investigation of the UFO phenomena. I think we owe it to the people to establish credibility regarding UFOs and to produce the greatest possible enlightenment on the subject. [Committee on Armed Services of the House of Representatives, Eighty-ninth Congress, Second session, Hearing on Unidentified Flying Objects, April 5, 1966]
- Don Berliner, UFO Briefing Document, 1995

Vice Admiral Roscoe Hillenkoetter, first Director of the CIA:
Unknown objects are operating under intelligent control… It is imperative that we learn where UFOs come from and what their purpose is…
[Maccabee, Bruce, “What the Admiral Knew: UFO, MJ-12 and R. Hillenkoeter,” International UFO Reporter, November/December, 1986]

Signed Statement to Congress (8/22/1960) - It is time for the truth to be brought out... Behind the scenes high-ranking Air Force officers are soberly concerned about the UFOs. But through official secrecy and ridicule, many citizens are led to believe the unknown flying objects are nonsense.... I urge immediate Congressional action to reduce the dangers from secrecy about unidentified flying objects.


General Douglas MacArthur addressed the United States Military Academy at West Point, May 12, 1962:
You now face a new world – a world of change. The thrust into outer space of the satellite, spheres and missles marked the beginning of another epoch in the long story of mankind – the chapter of the space age… We speak in strange terms - of harnessing the cosmic energy… of the primary target in war, no longer limited to the armed forces of an enemy, but instead to include his civil populations; of ultimate conflict between a united human race and the sinister forces of some other planetary galaxy…


General Nathan D. Twining was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff from 1957-1960. In 1947 he was the Lieutenant General in charge of the Air Force Air Material Command at Wright Field, Ohio. In a letter sent to the Commanding General of the US Army Air Forces on September 23, 1947, General Nathan D. Twining reports on his investigation of UFO sightings:
a. The phenomena reported is something real and not visionary or fictitious.
b. There are objects approximately the shape of a disc, of such appreciable size as to be as large as a man-made craft.
c. There is a possibility that some of the incidents may be caused by natural phenomena, such as meteors.
d. The reported operating characteristics such as extreme rates of climb, maneuverability (particularly in a roll), and action which must be considered evasive when sighted or contacted by friendly aircraft or radar, lend belief to the possibility that some of the objects are controlled either manually, automatically, or remotely.
- Don Berliner, UFO Briefing Document, 1995



[edit on 1-8-2008 by Sickscent]

Skeptics are egoists



You will notice "NoHup" here doing his egotistical thing,

www.abovetopsecret.com...

nice work!

[edit on 1-8-2008 by SkeptiksRegoists]

[edit on 1-8-2008 by SkeptiksRegoists]

Originally posted by SkeptiksRegoists
Skeptics are egoists

I do in a way understand your point, but I would be very carefull when choosing words like these. Why should you be? Because there are many sorts of skeptics out there, and I personaly don't think it's fair to generalize them since the point of view of one skeptic might be totaly different from another.



And to all you others, thanks for posting such great posts, both believers and skeptics.
I haven't read thru all of them yet, so I woun't make a statement to any of them yet, but there is many good points and arguments brought up here from both sides. Again thanks, and keep up the good work!

reply to post by TruthTellist



But you are completely missing what I said. The burden of proof is on me? Why would that be? Because YOU want it to be on me? The burden of proof is on the proof itself.. For some reason, maybe you just forgot to read my post or were to lazy to read the whole thing. I have already addressed this...

People make up their own minds. That's why we have brains... But you also have to put your critical thinking skills to good use and be logical. Being a skeptic means nothing. I, myself, am a skeptic as are many who believe UFO's are real. But being ignorant does mean something. You don't have any special information that noone else has regarding the UFO phenomenon. You simply assume they aren't real when you absolutely have no idea.

And the simple fact that you are asking people to prove to you UFO's are real shows everyone here that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking. This is not a "prove to me UFO's are real" thread.. That's what the evidence is for.. But you honestly have no idea what the evidence is because if you did, you wouldn't even be asking the question in the first place..

-ChriS

Originally posted by Outrageo

Hard science requires TANGIBLE evidence to establish fact (proof). Most of the "evidence' presented so far in this field are reduced to things such as grainy photos, second-hand reports, obscure 'eyewitness accounts', "testimony" from good (and bad) folks from all walks of life ("experts" to morons and back again).

[edit on 8/1/2008 by Outrageo]

That isn't exactly true. Most of the more assumed scientific phenomenon in astronomy, for example, are very basic theories.. Yet many of these theories are taught to students around the country, and largely accepted by science when we have absolutely no evidence that the phenomenon is even real.. SO what does science do? They conduct their research in hopes of finding the proof right?

Well why isn't the UFO phenomenon the same way? People say it's because the UFO phenomenon is pseudoscience.. But if something is considered "pseudoscience" it is usually just because of the lack of scientific inquiry and hard scientific data to back up the reality of the phenomenon.

So the scientists can claim it is pseudoscience because it isn't taken seriously in acadamea and elsewhere to begin with. It doesn't bring forth the big-paying grants that the government is constantly shelling out cash for. And if a scientist is going to make the leap into UFO research, there goes their career END OF STORY.. That is why mainstream science makes assumptions about the UFO phenomenon without basing their opinions on any evidence at all.
But none of this has anything to do with whether or not UFO's are real! ANd that is exactly the dilemma.. It is this same refusal to even consider the possibility that UFO's might be real that has kept UFO research in the dark ages.

And if science is not even willing to take that leap, then who is going to do the actual research? The mainstream scientists sure aren't going to do it. Yet many mainstream scientists claim the UFO's are real because UFO investigators and organisation like MUFON are forced to act as advocates of the phenomenon rather than scientists. But this is just because the scientists aren't doing the research.. IT'S A BIG CIRCLE!!!!!!

yet we constantly see astronauts continuing to come forward claiming UFO's are real and that aliens really do exist. And we constantly see military officers as well as commerical and military pilots coming forward with their experiences also. We constantly have new videos and photos released by NASA which are, at the very least, questionable. You might be a non-believer, you might not, but no matter how you look at the evidence, the actual supporting evidence is not zero. And no matter who thinks what about the UFO phenomenon, nothing can nullify THE TRUTH.

Your statement that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" is a good, well known statement here on ATS. But you also can't simply ignore the current mountain of evidence because ET hasn't landed on the white house lawn yet in the mothership from zeta reticuli. All of these well documented UFO cases stack up on top of each other into a pretty irrefutable pile of evidence.

Logically, there is no reason to wait to see the big picture until the very last piece of the puzzle is found. If that was how science really worked, we wouldn't really learn anything. Every major scientific discovery in history has been based on an idea, a concept, or theory that involves observable phenomenon under the guise of further scientific research until the phenomenon is fully understood (or at least to some degree of certainty). But with the UFO phenomenon it is completely backwards. We have the evidence, we have the pieces of the puzzle in our hands.. But we happen to live in a world where people are willing to remain ignorant because they are unwilling to accept the truth and the scientific community refuses to even take the first step because of this ignorance.

-ChriS

Originally posted by Nohup
There's a big difference between the things you list and aliens. ... As for a flu virus, I've seen enough microphotos and representations presented by enough diverse, unbiased scientists who agree they exist to pretty much agree that they exist.

And this is different from people who have been in black ops speaking out (and some being murdered), and the number of photos that cannot be written off as hoaxes or misinterpretations, because...?

A black hole is more of a theoretical construct that arises when you do the math on collapsed stars. I haven't seen one, but the math looks good, and there is some astronomical data to back up their existence.

I have seen the calculations of life probability, and read The Terra Papers, and the fit with what goes on today looks (VERY!!!) good, and there are pictures and witness testimonies to back up aliens' existence. Why is this different?

As for aliens, though... I've never seen any, not even in zoos.

You have never seen any...that you are aware of.

Any photos that have turned up have been "disputed," to say the least.

Many. Not all.

Some scientists and experts agree about the possibility of alien life, and I agree with them, but we still have yet to find undisputed scientific evidence of ET life, even on planets like Mars where we have environments where it might have a chance to survive.

We do have photoshopped images from the moon and Mars, though. So you can't say NO ONE has seen this. It would seem that the information is kept from us, which makes it very difficult to "prove." But the evidence is there if you are willing to look with no effort to find only what you have preconceived.

We have many, many reports of encounters and sightings, and that certainly qualifies as evidence, but of what?

How about exactly what they say? Especially when coming from folks like Phil Schneider. If I say I saw a ladybug, would you wonder if I had misinterpreted it and maybe I saw the moon?

Without something we can put under a microscope (or without an alien with tentacles coming out of its skull waving to everybody from the steps of the White House), stories are nothing but stories.

To be sure, people have had such things to be examined. Problem is, the military (usually it's them) confiscate the evidence. Phil Schneider had evidence. Who knows where it is now since they murdered him for speaking out.

Some honest people will swear on the Bible, and be right, that they've seen a magician pull a big, fluffy rabbit out of an empty hat. But just because they've really seen something, and they're honest, doesn't mean they're right. We need objective evidence to determine that.

But if all such evidence is removed, post haste, then what?

Because aliens are disputed to exist, we need an extra level of proof for their reality, much higher than the proof we would need for the chair you're sitting on, for example. We need good, solid proof we can look at, that we can test over and over again until we're satisfied, until even the hardest skeptic is satisfied. Settle for anything less and you're just an honest dope, a sucker who believes rabbits can be pulled from an empty hat.

Um... Not so. Because the facts of a case are disputed in court does not mean that the jury must have every detail, available or not, to make an informed decision.

The fact is that, with people like Schneider, Morning Sky, Greer, the multitude of people Greer has collected testimony from, Icke even, Credo Mutwa, the zillions of abductees, the altered photos out of NASA, the astronauts coming forward, etc... If it was a trial, and you had no bias either way, the likelihood that you would conclude that aliens are NOT here, if presented with all this (mostly) highly credible testimony, is extremely slim.

But in actuality, you are biased. You have gone into the trial already "knowing" that none of the evidence will sway you.

Me? I was not sure for a very long time, but when all my WHYs about how this Universe was the way it was were answered by The Terra Papers, I reevaluated what I had previously seen, and the whole of the puzzle fell into place.

So don't call me "an honest dope, a sucker who believes rabbits can be pulled from an empty hat," because I am anything but. I am merely not biased.

[edit on 8/1/2008 by Amaterasu]

Originally posted by Outrageo
Hard science requires TANGIBLE evidence to establish fact (proof).

Why is it that this is a matter of "scientific" proof? I don't understand. It is FAR more akin to a court case.

It is a matter of reviewing all the testimony. We are told (by a very many credible witnesses) that there is a staunch effort to cover this up. And surely we see this. NASA alters the images the release to us.

We see pictures, and many are hoaxes. Hoaxes usually go in waves. There will be a spate of them and then they will pretty much die down as the next fad comes along - yet the UFO hoaxes just keep on coming. THAT should say volumes in support of a concerted effort to obfuscate the truth.

We are told (again, by a very many credible witnesses) that aliens (some of the races) are here amongst us. But rather than leave our comfort zone and believe these people, we start demanding "scientific" proof!

And the scary part is, that as long as we keep nay-saying, demanding our "scientific" proof, we cannot move to control our destiny as a race. And what we are told, from many, many sources, is that the plan is to do an extermination job on this planet, leaving some number less than five hundred million.

And what do the "scientific" proofers have to say about the Georgia Guidestones? Either they don't address them, or they claim they are meaningless.

How either pathetic, given the testimony in our court, or how...shilly.

Originally posted by Nohup
I tend to return back to what I think the real question is. With the huge amount of evidence available in the form of eyewitness reports (from experts and otherwise), ground traces, radar tracks, weird freaky stuff like psychic communication, time dilation, and so on... why the paucity of good, testable, definitive evidence?

That is so easy to answer, I am aghast that the solution isn't obvious to all.

There is a well-financed, concerted effort to hide all evidence. The fingerprints are so clear, if you take a moment to dust for them. And the reason is because the aliens are in control now, and would rather control from behind the scenes. Once they are outted...control will be FAR more difficult. So they do things like kill Phil Schneider.

Still... More and more, evidence and testimony leak out.

I believe in the existence of life on other planets. I also believe in the possibility/probability of said life to have visited or currently visiting, for whatever reasons, our world.
That being said, there is no concrete evidence that will stand up for my statements.
While some rock carvings, etc. do seem to show what we may perceive/believe what some aliens look like again this is not proof and the "artists" may have had an entirely different intention for their work.
Like the bible they are stories meant to convey varied meanings or in the case of the bible to convey behavior that is accepted/unaccepted.

People, regardless of their station in life, are just plain ol' people. They are subject to the same saneness/kookiness as the rest of the "great unwashed". For every "credible" source there are too many "un/incredible" sources.

Looking at it from our reality/understanding and vision of travel in space it is damn hard and expensive. While we like to believe, and there is some truth in it, that our ventures into space are for exploration pure and simple it is not "pure and simple". There had better be some tangible benefit for the country of origin and/or mankind as a whole or funding diminishes. Fortunately it has resulted in many benefits for mankind but there are plenty out there that would argue against it for the waste of money with no tangible benefits.
Now why would an extraterrestial race visit our lovely little planet, especially with us knowing how hard and unfriendly space is, and not say "hi" we have some cool trinkets and maybe a bit of knowledge to trade for.... Perhaps they are taking a "hands off" the silly primitives...sort of like we do when we find a new culture in some jungle or rain forest...perhaps then they are hiding in trees with their cameras watching us as we go on with our lives. Maybe we are on their version of "National Geographic"...cool thought and where is my residual check???

I would presume aliens would make themselves known to us publicly when it is in their best interests...they would have to be a bit more advanced than us eh?...so while it is enjoyable to think about the possibilities I do not dwell on it. It will happen when it will happen.

If it makes you happy..................

Originally posted by TopSecretArea

Here are some images to illustrate:

What this is can be discussed, is it an alien? Is it some sort of ancient human? Or a person wearing a mask?

I like this picture and want to know more about it. The rest I have seen many times before. Were can I find this picture? In Egypt probably, but were exactly?

Originally posted by kcire
I like this picture and want to know more about it. The rest I have seen many times before. Were can I find this picture? In Egypt probably, but were exactly?

Sorry to take away the excitement about this picture. Another poster in this thread contributed to clear up the misunderstanding about this picture here.
It's the contition and angle of the picture that tricks the eye to see an "alien-like" beeing.
So to add this picture into the thread was a mistake by me from the beginning, since I didn't to enough research about it.

The actuall drawing can be seen much clearer in this picture here here.



I watched this program on Discovery Science the other day, a show called "Alien Planet". Anyone else here watched it?
Anyway, it's a "imaginary journey" to a planet called Darwin 4 where they hoped to encounter other lifeforms. This is how a number of scientists imagined how a journey to look for life elsewhere could be, and how thouse lifeforms could look like.
Actually thought it was a pretty decent program to watch, and found it also online on Video Google.

You can watch Alien Planet video.google.com...

Guess this is somehow a bit out of topic, but thought it would be a good program to watch to see how some scientists look at this question about life beyond our planet.

Originally posted by Amaterasu

Originally posted by Outrageo
Hard science requires TANGIBLE evidence to establish fact (proof).

Why is it that this is a matter of "scientific" proof? I don't understand.

This is basically what I was saying in my last post. The proof is in the phenomenon itself being real and documented (and it has been very well documented). But in order to even get any kind of "scientific" proof, doesn't science need to be studying and researching the phenomenon to begin with? That isn't happening and it probably won't happen (at least not anytime soon. I talked about this as well in my last post).

This is the whole reason you have, largely, non-scientists, independent researchers, and organisations separate from the mainstream scientific community (like MUFON) studying the phenomenon in order to get a grasp on what is really going on, as well as spreading that information to the public since noone else is doing this kind of research and investigation..
This isn't advocacy in order to get people to believe in the phemenon. It is a way to gauge the truth and the facts about what is really going on and since noone else is doing the research, they have an extremely difficult task ahead of them in fighting against the assumptions of mainstream scientists that the UFO phenomenon has no basis in reality.

But without the actual scientists conducting this kind of research, there is always going to be a lack of credible scientific evidence conducted by respected and reputable scientists. Therefore these same scientists can always claim the UFO phenomenon is "pseudoscience" because it lacks any supporting scientific evidence.. But that's only because they refuse to do the research to begin with (for many different reasons I talked about before). Therefore, the scientific community has an easy way out of the entire argument.

I can guarantee that some of these independent ufologists know alot more about the reality of the phenomenon than the actual scientists.. Yet they are separate from the scientific community, therefore they and their research can be easily ignored, scoffed at, and thrown under the bus of all the other big-money research projects of mainstream science.

To the scientists, the idea that these people involved with UFO's (of all things) know more about something than they do probably makes them pretty uncomfortable. And if people within the scientific community really have that much of an Oedipus complex, it shows how closed-minded these scientists are within acadamea and all the other scientific insitutions around the world.

And this next bit is something everyone should think about.
All of the major scientific discoveries throughout history did not require the evidence first. They began with a theory or an idea, and scientists worked their way up from that point in order to get a better picture of what was really going on. Isaac Newton and the story of the apple is one great example. Yet today's scientists claim that the UFO phenomenon isn't real because of the lack of evidence. Well, that never stopped science before from pursuing the possibility of a major discovery. And if scientists thought this way about everything, we wouldn't learn a thing about the universe around us!
Therefore, the lack of scientific scrutiny with regards to the UFO phenomenon has no logical explanation. Science has a bias towards the phenomenon because of what it implies, it's connotations of craziness and looniness, and the fact that no reputable scientist would risk their career on what everyone else in science calls "pseudoscience". The scientists follow the big grant money. And it sure as heck isn't in the field of UFO research I can tell you that much...

-ChriS

This is just me talking, but lets try to change the term U.F.O. back to what it used to be, F.U. (Flying Unknown), it would automatically recieve less scrutiny because it's pre-concieved notion is about a curse word, but it would still get a laugh, I'm still sticking with it, I've seen a few F.U.'s in my time about the topic.......

Skeptics will always be skeptics, but they want hard evidence you can examine and test beyond a reasonable doubt, that we do *not* have, except for photos which can be manipulated and interpreted too many different ways, same goes for ancient drawings, they can be seen any way you want to see them, besides ancient civilizations used abstract shapes with symbolism, symbolism-it's something today's average person knows *NOTHING* about, please research it, it actually is important to you understanding the history of the human race.

reply to post by Amaterasu


the shadow government was not responsible for anything post 1900ad that had to do with anything remotely anti gravity.



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im really interested in the old paintings and engravings with the disc shaped objects in the air. they look like small clues silently sitting on the wall waiting to be noticed. its funny to me that some people arent seeing this at face value.

finished the terra papers

funny thing is, it ties into alex colliers video interview, as well as the bringers of the dawn the pleiadean emessaries of light. the greys being described as "the lizzies" by the pleiadeans to make it more comical. Once RA won over the earth with the help of the lizzies he declared himself "the one true god" and the lizzies had the technique of "erasing memory"

i realize now that as a believer the history of it all is vast. i have a healthy skeptisizm as well, but then again there's parts of human history that arent all that clear either, but i didnt pay attention in high school too much when it came to history.

ANYone know where i can find abduction stories that are not from earthfiles.com or casebook.com





[edit on 8/5/2008 by LordThumbs]

reply to post by Scramjet76


great thread

totally agree. i am a new beleiver though dont think its because i was too busy, i think its because i want to now know more about our existance and about where we have come from and going. if the unknown is talked about enough and proof like this is givan...we are one step closer to finding answers.