Russia ‘Had Laser Cannons Before U.S.’

www.mnweekly.ru...

MOSCOW (RIA Novosti) - Russia started developing tactical laser weapons before the United States and has several prototypes of high-precision combat chemical lasers in its arsenal, a defense industry source said on Tuesday.

The Boeing Company said recently it had test-fired a high-energy chemical laser fitted aboard a C-130H aircraft for the first time. The successful ground tests, "a key milestone for the Advanced Tactical Laser Advanced Concept Technology Demonstration program," took place on May 13 at the Kirtland Air Force Base, New Mexico.

Commenting on the announcement, the Russian expert said: "We tested a similar system back in 1972. Even then our ‘laser cannon was capable of hitting targets with high precision."

"We have moved far ahead since then, and the U.S. has to keep pace with our research and development," he added.

I have no reason to disbelieve the Russian's standpoint, after all the first working laser that could operate at room temperature was created by the Russians (read up about Zhores Alferov) but nevertheless that seems a bit hard to swallow.

10 years after the first working laser (1960) is made they had mounted them onto planes and had a suitable, portable powerplant that produced enough wattage so it could take down missiles?

You only need to take a look at the Boening YAL-1 to realise that's quite a feat, not only do you a require a huge airframe to mount this thing on (Boeing 747) you need immense power.



That thing is basically one huge chemical tank full of propellant with a massive diode on the nose.

Mmmm, bit of a stretch in 1972.
In fact I think the only airframe they could of mounted this on in the 70's was the "Bear" (Tupolev Tu-95) and that thing is 20 metres shorter than a 747 and has even less load capacity (about 170,000kg compared to 190,000kg).

So again, maybe they should release a few photographs or something because that really would have been a stunning achievement.

Note also this comes from a Russian paper. We all know how the Russians love to toot their own horn.

[edit on 24/7/08 by The Godfather of Conspira]

reply to post by CTPAX


yes, its a well documented fact , check out truck based MLTK lasers designed to destroy cruise missiles

soviets had used lasers in sino-soviet war of 1969

Although infrared weapon technology is not widely discussed in the West, the Soviet infrared beam weapon is nothing new and was already used during a Soviet dispute with China in 1969 to destroy "a wall" at the Ussuri River, which separates Manchuria from Russia's Far East, according to the physicist.
----
There are indications, according to the physicist, that such a weapon was used when the KAL plane was shot down over Kamchatka (Soviet Union) in September 1983. In the early 90s, this technology returned to scientific discussions in the West and the technology itself appears to have been transferred from the Soviet Union.
www.serendipity.li...

A former East German physicist who studied Soviet infrared technology and plasmoids during the 60s and 70s, and who was directly involved in a demonstration of a Soviet laser beam weapon in 1991 for the U.S. Air Force in Weimar (DDR)
www.serendipity.li...

in fact , the tech for THEL was obtained by sceintists of USSR , who emgrated to USA and israel

and yes , the claims of use of DEW for the downing of KAL 007 in 1983 in kamchatka peninsula are verifed by the book psychotronic Golgotha , which has some brief discussion on various soviet directed energy weapon applications , but is mainly concerned with its mind control applications

you could order the book ,psychotronic Golgotha , though it is available in Russian language

mindjustice.org...

10 years after the first working laser (1960) is made they had mounted them onto planes and had a suitable, portable powerplant that produced enough wattage so it could take down missiles?

no, the laser was ship based from what i am aware

[edit on 24-7-2008 by manson_322]

In 1972 they tested stationery laser system I would assume... in these days everything was huge size wise Now they might have something smaller... no matter if you believe that news source or not one must think... Laser cannons are just too sweet of an idea to just pass even by Russians...

In any case it is a great achievement for US to create mobile laser system like that... sweet weapon indeed!

here , are the pics of mltk laser truck and its tests in 80's:
on a plane , (project was suspended by in 1987-90 after possibly INF treaty)





Test:


www.militaryphotos.net...


DIA artwork of MLTK laser:

www.militaryphotos.net...

topic on soviet lasers:
forum.warfare.ru...


[edit on 24-7-2008 by manson_322]

[edit on 24-7-2008 by manson_322]

I also suggest that you want info , on particle beam ,plasma weapons and nuclear powered lasers of USSr, contact StellarX


he has several sources related to these

reply to post by manson_322


Good finds Manson, but this article is talking about some aircraft-mounted design nonetheless a completely different challenge. And according to the Russian representative, fully operational in 1972, I would be more inclined to believe this if it was in the 80's but 1972 seems a bit of a stretch in my opinion.

The fact that the US has only just recently developed an airborne laser weapon suggests to me it was simply not feasible or possible any earlier.
Either that or they're hiding more from us than we thought.

And the Russians trailed in the US is just about about every high-tech weapons department.
They simply didn't have the luxury of resources to spend on projects which may not actually develop realistic, practical weaponary.
Lasers are still far from practical to be used on the field, which why the necessity of mounting them onto huge weapons frames like planes or ships; the power requirement has still yet to be solved in an effective and compact manner.

[edit on 24/7/08 by The Godfather of Conspira]

reply to post by manson_322

Do you think you could provide more reputable sources than Serendipity.Com?
Mainstream media from countries other than the US or Russia could be helpful.

reply to post by The Godfather of Conspira

And the Russians trailed in the US is just about about every high-tech weapons department. They simply didn't have the luxury of resources to spend on projects which may not actually develop realistic, practical weaponary.

nonsense , soviets were leading in areas like plasma weapons,laser weapons, nanotechnology, civil defence , Metallurgy,radars etc.. they were lacking to USA in electronics,computer systems , software development and sensor developement,electronics,communications etc ..


Edward Tellar , (the father of american hydrogen bomb) himself stated that soviets were ahead of USA in laser development by a decade

Radar and Laser Beams
The Soviet radar station in Krasnoyarsk has been completed. That radar will show how our missiles approach. The information can be handed out to the SA-12s, which will make a good defense after retaliatory missiles have reentered the atmosphere.

We are approaching the point where mutually assured destruction is not only a terrible idea, but it won't even work. We are allowing our forces of retaliation to become obsolete.

The Soviets have worked for at least 10 years on lasers -- high intensity lasers which can be directed so accurately that in 1000 miles, the spread of the beam will be no more than five feet. We have seen at least one published deployment of such lasers in the Soviet Union on the military test site of Shari Shagan on the shores of Lake Baikal. I suspect that this is not the only one. We act as though the ABM Treaty were a reality.
www.commonwealthclub.org...

on soviet nuclear lasers for ASAT and potential anti-ICBM purpose
(USA has no counterpart of it till now )

Text
Starting at the end of the 1960s, the Russians also developed ground-based nuclear laser systems for combating spacecraft. Unlike the American x-ray lasers, they could be used several times over. The programme was terminated after the USSR announced a unilateral moratorium on trials of the space defence system and the puzzling deaths of the two project managers in the mid-1980s.

The mobile Pamir-SU electro-generator, with an output of 15MW and a mass of around 20t, could supply power to long-range lasers and ultra-high-frequency weapon systems. It could be used both on the Earth and also in space.
www.flug-revue.rotor.com...

reply to post by bios



ok , theres a czech language source on soviet use of laser weapons in 1969 sino-soviet war :

here :
www.military.cz...

The USSR's high-energy laser program, which dates from the mid-1960s, is much larger than the US effort. They have built over a half dozen major R&D facilities and test ranges, and they have over 10,000 scientists and engineers associated with laser development. They are developing chemical lasers and have continued to work on other high-energy lasers having potential weapons applications - the gas dynamic laser and the electric discharge laser. They are also pursuing related laser weapon technologies, such as efficient electrical power sources, and are pursuing capabilities to produce high-quality optical components. They have developed a rocket-driven magnetohydrodynamic (MHD) generator which produces 15 megawatts of short-term electric power - a device that has no counterpart in the West. The scope of the USSR's military capabilities would depend on its success in developing advanced weapons, including laser weapons for ballistic missile defense.
www.fas.org...

In 1983 flight trials of the approximately 60t laser device commenced on an Ilyushin Il-76MD heavylift transport. At the same time research was being carried out on the propagation of laser beams in the atmosphere.
www.flug-revue.rotor.com...

flug revue sources , i had found on physics forum , and
its a German MSM source



[edit on 24-7-2008 by manson_322]

[edit on 24-7-2008 by manson_322]

reply to post by bios

Do you think you could provide more reputable sources than Serendipity.Com?

Exactly my point. This could all be well and true or it could just war-time propaganda from the Soviets?
Who knows...

I'm not saying I don't believe you Manson, I don't trust your sources however. Online forums and unverified blogs don't make a story any more believable. I simply need some more proof of this.

And a few of those quotes from your sources sound absolutely ludicrous.

high intensity lasers which can be directed so accurately that in 1000 miles, the spread of the beam will be no more than five feet.

Impossible. Laser beams breakdown in the air at energy densities of around a megajoule per CENTIMETRE cubed.
At 1000 miles the beam would defocus to the point where it would literally evaporate in the air.

Hence why all the current directed-laser projects are working within the range of 300-600km (less than 400 miles), like the Boeing YAL-1 or the THEL.

That's just simply not believable.

the Russians also developed ground-based nuclear laser systems for combating spacecraft. Unlike the American x-ray lasers, they could be used several times over.

Again, the power that would be require for a ground-based laser to hit a target IN SPACE, through layers and layers of gaseous atmospheres that would defocus and "bloom" the beam is immense.

Each one of those so called "ground-based" stations would need it's own Nuclear Power Plant, which would not be feasible. The Soviets had enough trouble supplying Nuclear Power to the civilian population, and we can see how well that worked out (Chernobyl).

I think you need to be a bit more discerning with your sources, some of these are just not reliable.

[edit on 24/7/08 by The Godfather of Conspira]

Originally posted by The Godfather of Conspira
reply to post by bios

 

Do you think you could provide more reputable sources than Serendipity.Com?

Exactly my point. This could all be well and true or it could just war-time propaganda from the Soviets?
Who knows...

I'm not saying I don't believe you Manson, I don't trust your sources however. Online forums and unverified blogs don't make a story any more believable. I simply need some more proof of this.

And a few of those quotes from your sources sound absolutely ludicrous.

high intensity lasers which can be directed so accurately that in 1000 miles, the spread of the beam will be no more than five feet.

Impossible. Laser beams breakdown in the air at energy densities of around a megajoule per CENTIMETRE cubed.
At 1000 miles the beam would defocus to the point where it would literally evaporate in the air.

Hence why all the current directed-laser projects are working within the range of 300-600km (less than 400 miles), like the Boeing YAL-1 or the THEL.

That's just simply not believable.

the Russians also developed ground-based nuclear laser systems for combating spacecraft. Unlike the American x-ray lasers, they could be used several times over.

Again, the power that would be require for a ground-based laser to hit a target IN SPACE, through layers and layers of gaseous atmospheres that would defocus and "bloom" the beam is immense.

Each one of those so called "ground-based" stations would need it's own Nuclear Power Plant, which would not be feasible. The Soviets had enough trouble supplying Nuclear Power to the civilian population, and we can see how well that worked out (Chernobyl).

I think you need to be a bit more discerning with your sources, some of these are just not reliable.

[edit on 24/7/08 by The Godfather of Conspira]

Impossible. Laser beams breakdown in the air at energy densities of around a megajoule per CENTIMETRE cubed. At 1000 miles the beam would defocus to the point where it would literally evaporate in the air.

the statement was from Mr.Edward Teller , who commented on soviet nuclear pumped ASAT lasers
this you should ask , nuclear physicst like Samuel Cohen , who have stated similiar things on soviet lasers

also , THEL and YAL are chemical based systems not nuclear based ,

interview of Mr.Cohen(developer of Neutron bomb)

Already, Cohen reported, the Russians have a sophisticated nuclear-based missile defense system around Moscow and possibly elsewhere. According to published intelligence reports, in the late 1980s the Russians began developing a "plasma weapon" for missile defenses. The plasma weapon uses nuclear energy to ionize the atmosphere, destroying or rendering inoperable any missiles passing through the plasma field.
www.manuelsweb.com...

The Soviets had enough trouble supplying Nuclear Power to the civilian population, and we can see how well that worked out (Chernobyl).

soviets had no problem in supplying nuclear power, the reactor design of RBMK used in USSR was unsafe , thus this happened

Each one of those so called "ground-based" stations would need it's own Nuclear Power Plant, which would not be feasible.

the reactors can be in underground cities , check out Yamantau and Uragan defence , and russians have over 200 underground cities/bases , ........

there are several reports that the underground city beneath moscow has a 1000 mw RBMK reactor



[edit on 24-7-2008 by manson_322]

reply to post by The Godfather of Conspira


Same goes for you... where do you get your information... at least he includes links with all his info...

You must think everyone developing their technology according to US guidelines... code name "How to" right?

reply to post by CTPAX


What you can't use Google? Look it up if you don't believe me...

Here:
projectrho.com...
www.aps.org...
frontpagemagazine.com...

From first source:

At a range of 1 meter, that requires an energy release of 0.63MJ, and once the beam is substantially inside the object, most of the flash will be deposited on the rest of the inside of the object, so it's really only object shells we need to worry about.

If the beam has an area of 50 square centimeters ( AV:T scale) to emit a total of 630 kJ it must be emitting 12.6 kJ/cm2.

12.6kJ per centimetre squared means 12,600kJ of energy required for a laser to travel 1 kilometre that has a circumference of around 50 square centimetres.
(Take a look a ruler and you'll see that's actually quite small, which means it makes it even all the more harder for that laser to hit something a great distances, because it's so tiny, it needs to be 100% accurate)

Now for a laser to actually travel 1000 miles as that source stated, that needs: 20, 277, 684 kJ of energy... (12,600 X 1609.34) 1000= Approx 1609km

Do you see how ridiculous that is for a portable laser system mounted on a plane or vehicle to have that much energy?
And that's for a relatively small laser.

It's bullcrap. Unless the Soviets harnessed Anti-Matter Energy in the 1960's you can forget about them firing lasers at distances of 1000 miles.
Even today that's impossible.

From first source again:

H = Cm/(78.54 * A2 * (Dk/150,000)4)
where:
H = maximum percent chance to hit target given light-speed lag(0.0 - 1.0)
Cm = target ship's mean cross section (m2, for a purely convex object this is 1/4 of the surface area)
A = target's acceleration (Gs)
Dk = range to target (km)

Please note that this equation does not work if the target's acceleration is zero (since dividing by zero is mathematically undefined). In that case the target's official status is Sitting Duck and H = 1.0 or 100%. Neither does the equation work if the range is zero, in which the target's official status is At Point Blank Range or Eating The Gun Muzzle, and again H = 1.0 (Thanks to Eric Henry for pointing this out). Just remember that H cannot go over 1.0 and you'll be fine.

And the following a hypothetical situation showing just how MUCH POWER you need to actually penetrate hardened materials at long distances with lasers:

Example: Say you have an ultraviolet (20 nanometer) laser cannon with a 3.2 meter lens. Your hapless target spacecraft is at a range of 12,900 kilometers (12,900,000 meters). The Beam Radius equation says that the beam radius at the target will be about 4 centimeters (0.04 meters), so the beam will be irradiating about 50 cm2 of the target's skin (area of circle with radius of 4 centimeters). If the hapless target spacecraft had a hull of steel armor, the armor has a heat of vaporization of about 60 kiloJoules/cm3. Say the armor is 12.5 cm thick. So for the laser cannon to punch a hole in the armor it will have to remove about 625 cm3 of steel (volume of cylinder with radius of 4 cm and height of 12.5 cm). 625 * 60 = 37,500 kiloJoules. If the laser pulse is one second, this means the beam requires a power level of 37,500 watts or 38 megawatts at the target.

38 Megawatts at a target??
And remember, this is assuming this laser weapon is a mobile one, fully self-contained...

You need about 3 portable Nuclear Power Stations for that or something.

You must think everyone developing their technology according to US guidelines...

You develop your technology based on the Laws of friggin' Physics, which Russia cannot defy.

I'm merely commenting the things that source listed as possible in the 1960's is pure fantasy.

[edit on 24/7/08 by The Godfather of Conspira]

So you and your "hypothetical" thinking want us to believe you tather than those sources, about what Russia has, thats the same type of western propaganda the west was up to in the cold war.(Don't believe the Russians is not possible bla bla bla.)

Originally posted by bios
reply to post by manson_322

 

Do you think you could provide more reputable sources than Serendipity.Com?
Mainstream media from countries other than the US or Russia could be helpful.

BTW whay evidence do you have that there's wrong info in those sites? You Yanks are always trying to discredit the source once they proved Russia has something better than the U.S.

reply to post by Lambo Rider

So you and your "hypothetical" thinking want us to believe you tather than those sources, about what Russia has,

My reasoning and factual thinking is far more believable than some blog and online forum about Nuclear Missiles.
I don't care who wrote them, 2 websites does not prove to me that something is 100% true.
You want to believe any you get off the Net, fine by me, just don't say nobody warned you though when things you start believing in turn out to be utter garbage.

You think the Americans are the only masters of propaganda? lol

Right the Russians never took a penny off a sidewalk, they wouldn't lie.

"We don't have Nuclear Missiles in Cuba...."

Ring any bells?

Get your head out of the sand mate and reread those sources carefully, I think you need to be a tad more critical of what you take in.

Oh and I'm not a "Yank" there by the way, maybe you need glasses...
See where it says "Location" on my avatar, what's that say?

[edit on 24/7/08 by The Godfather of Conspira]

reply to post by CTPAX


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I love the Russians. They really do never give up. They're so out of touch with everything. It amazes me. I mean, they see and understand everything. But they just remain so distant to all that happens.

One thing I'll give them. When they do say something, they try to make sure it's worth saying first. Rather than spout off # that everybody is going to misinterpret.

Originally posted by The Godfather of Conspira
Impossible. Laser beams breakdown in the air at energy densities of around a megajoule per CENTIMETRE cubed.

It's been a while since I read anything on this topic. I remember, however, that it's possible to achieve auto-lensing, whereby the beam is focusing itself due to density gradient in the column of the air, which in turn is due to the temperature gradient imparted by the beam, on the gas.

It would seem possible then to "drill" the air.

Howeve, there are other (quantum and optical) limits on how well you can focus lasers. I doubt a few hundred miles are feasible.

Originally posted by intelligent life
I love the Russians. They really do never give up. They're so out of touch with everything.

That statement of yours does not seem intelligent or even smart. Just how exactly are Russians our of touch? They are now the biggest arms exporter in the world, and a lot of their weaponry is not too shabby.