Have Christians Been Duped?

The Mithras character who was born on 25th of December is the Roman sun god Sol Invictvs Mithras, or Mithras the Invincible Sun, the supposed god of Emperor Constantine "the Great", founder of the Catholic Church. Only one MS remains to this day from this tradition, namely the rather confusing document called Mithras Lithurgy from the fourth century.

www.hermetic.com...

Mithras was a sun god and should not be linked to the Persian god Mithra or the Vedic god Mitra. There exists a closer connection to the Greek sun god Helios.

There is no mention of Mithras being born of a virgin, that he was visited by wise men, had twelve disciples or anything else of the claims proposed in this and other threads here on ATS lately. But we know that he was celebrated every 25th of December and followers held Sunday the day of worship. At the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD Emperor Constantine the Great, who himself is said to havebeen a pater or high priest of the Mithras cult made it so that Jesus' birthday was placed at 25th of December and that the Sabbath should be changed from Saturday to Sunday.

In the third century Justin Marthyr presented his concerns about how the Mithras cult copied the Christians in a "diabolical way".

As for how he came into this world, Mithras is depicted emerging out of the cliff "theos ek petras" in Mithraistic art. The most popular motive however is the scene where Mithras fights and kills a bull.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
You missed my point entirely Ashley. Opinions and stories do not debunk anything. FACTS debunk. Arguing one opinion against another doesn't prove anything and doesn't disprove anything.

No, I totally understood. And answered.

It's not opinion vs. opinion. It is fact vs. fact when we can compare the recorded stories to the recorded stories.

Let's say a Disney cartoon (a fairy tale) was accused of plagiarizing one of Aesop's fables (a fairy tale). Even if they were both completely false, you can look at the 'facts' and see the two stories are not remotely similar. This is why [actual] scholars who are not Christians can still see that the PHC is false. Because they went to the religious sources of the figures in question and did not take someone's word for it as to what is recorded about the figures.

Again, for argument's sake we can say they are all mythical figures including Jesus (something I obviously do not believe). It does not matter- the correlations are lies. Pretty simple.

Are you not curious as to why people who are educated on this subject and who have researched it have debunked it on this thread (not only myself and not only Christians)? It's because it's false.

Anyways, I've debated this a million times on ATS. Sometimes I can get through to people but it appears in this case I cannot. Take care.

reply to post by AshleyD

It's not opinion vs. opinion. It is fact vs. fact when we can compare the recorded stories to the recorded stories.

Recorded stories are not facts. They are stories. They are stories written by mortal men. You can take a story on faith if you want, but it doesn't make it a fact. Facts need to be proven. The proof of a story is not in the story.

Are you not curious as to why people who are educated on this subject and who have researched it have debunked it on this thread (not only myself and not only Christians)? It's because it's false.

Nothing on this thread or any other on the same topic has been debunked. Education and research? Who educated them? What edcuated them? What research? Research into more stories?

Anyways, I've debated this a million times on ATS. Sometimes I can get through to people but it appears in this case I cannot. Take care.

Why must you get through to me? Maybe you've debated this a million times because it's un-debatable.....

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
Recorded stories are not facts. They are stories. They are stories written by mortal men. You can take a story on faith if you want, but it doesn't make it a fact. Facts need to be proven. The proof of a story is not in the story.

I never said they were and even referred to them 'myths.' Is the story of Little Red Riding hood a fact? Of course not. But it is a fact it is a story about a little girl wearing a red-hooded cloak, traveling through the forest to her grandmother's house, where she meets a wolf, etc. If I told you Little Red Riding Hood was a story about a boy who sold his cow in exchange for magical beans, planted the beans that grew into a giant vine, and he then climbed into the sky where he met a giant would be nonfactual. That would be me personally lying to you to make the story sound like Jack and the Beanstalk.

It's a very simply concept I am trying to illustrate to you. If I tell you the Hindu texts state Krishna was crucified, had 12 disciples, was buried for three days, born of a virgin, all you have to do is prove me wrong by showing the Hindu texts that state Krishna was not crucified but instead killed by a hunter, was his mother's eighth child (hence not virgin-born), was not buried for three days, etc. That is the whole point. The above is a lie, the below is factual concerning what is believed about Krishna. So is the same with Mithras and a few dozen other figures claimed to be inspirations for Jesus.

Why must you get through to me? Maybe you've debated this a million times because it's un-debatable.....

No, it's because people are like a dog with a bone and don't want to let go of anything that would let them believe Christ is a pagan-based myth even in spite of experts telling them otherwise.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but not their own facts.

Mithras and Jesus: Not twins.

reply to post by Excitable_Boy


It is completely a matter of the facts of the stories e-boy. It is not an opinion that Jack in the bean stalk has a Giant character in it. That is a fact of the story. You are still illustrating the point I made. You will not admit to being wrong in spite of direct evidence. Do you have no shame?

[edit on 4/8/2008 by Bigwhammy]

reply to post by AshleyD

That is the whole point. The above is a lie, the below is factual concerning what is believed about Krishna. So is the same with Mithras and a few dozen other figures claimed to be inspirations for Jesus.

Wow! "The below is factual based on what is believed..." What is believed is based on the story. Once again, the story DOES NOT prove the story.

from me:
Why must you get through to me? Maybe you've debated this a million times because it's un-debatable.....

response from ashley:
No, it's because people are like a dog with a bone and don't want to let go of anything that would let them believe Christ is a pagan-based myth even in spite of experts telling them otherwise.

What experts? What makes anyone an expert on something they cannot prove? Seriously!

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but not their own facts.

EXACTLY. And I would add: Don't confuse opinions with facts!

And, Bigwhammy: You are grasping at straws.....If I am wrong about anything, at least be so kind as to prove it. Otherwise, you haven't the right to talk to me about shame.

[edit on 8-4-2008 by Excitable_Boy]

quote]Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
It seems some people need to understand what Prove and Proof mean as well as Debunk.

No one here has proven me "wrong" about anything. You have proven that there are other opinions. Like I said earlier, the only way you will PROVE me wrong about my beliefs in God and the mortalness of Jesus if he even existed at all, would be to have God come down and explain to me Himself the error of my ways.

Otherwise, your opinions are your opinions and they only prove that there are other opinions. One opinion does not prove another opinion to be wrong. I did bring up the fact that there are other stories that are similar to the story of Jesus. This is a fact. These stories exist. It is true that there exists a story about Jesus. Where is the PROOF that ANY of them are true or false?

I believe in God and do not believe in Jesus. You can't tell me I'm wrong and you can't tell me I'm right. You can't debunk it.

Everyone understands the definition of Fact, right? Example: 2+2 = 4 is a fact. But, Jesus being the Messiah is not a fact. And, Jesus not being the Messiah is also not a fact.

EB, this is about the first time you have posted something I can understand. You are correct, there is no definitive proof that Jesus is the Messiah or that He is indeed God. We believe according to our own spiritual epiphanies.

When you say that you believe in God, I am assuming that you believe in a supreme being, not necessarily the God Yahweh of the Bible. You do understand that God is a title and not a name?

Have Christians been duped? The answer would lie in this: If Christians are wrong, how does this affect you? If they are right, how does this affect you?

It is not my job to convince or convert you. You may believe as you wish. I believe that Elohim offers everyone a choice. He doesn’t beg anyone to accept His truth. He doesn’t apologize for His rules or behavior. If He allows others to believe whatever they wish, why should I try to change your mind?

There are many pagan and occult roots in government and advertising why should religion be any different. These things have existed for millennia. It is only natural that they would find their way into our everyday lives.

Science is believing with tyangible proof. With proof there is no need for faith. Faith is believing without asking for proof.

reply to post by Excitable_Boy

And, Bigwhammy: You are grasping at straws.....If I am wrong about anything, at least be so kind as to prove it.

No I'm not grasping at straws, you are publicly embarrassing yourself. You misrepresented the story of Mithras. Probably not intentionally, I bet you were duped. It is a known established tale. The details of that tale are not under debate. They are well documented and known. You used a second hand anti Christian source who misrepresented the details of the tale of Mithra to make it appear as similar to Christ. It was a deception. We are not accusing you of the deception but you were deceived . Ashley knows the real story and debunked your poor scholarship. You were proven wrong. On and on you try to slide out from under the truth. Sorry. We all make mistakes. Be an adult and admit it why don't you?

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
Mithras was born of a virgin by immaculate conception.
- He was born of Anahita, an immaculate virgin mother
Mithras was born in a stable.

Originally posted by AshleyD

Mithras was not born in a stable, to a virgin, by immaculate conception He was believed to have emerged as an adult out of solid rock as the ancient reliefs show.

case closed



[edit on 4/8/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Bigwhammy.....you keep trying and keep failing. I presented a story at the beginning of this thread. I never said it was fact or true. I simply presented it as proof of another story that was similar to the story of Jesus. Story....understand? Story......

The name of this thead is "Have Christians been Duped?" not "Christians Have been duped." Do you understand the difference?

I'm not sure what "case" you keep trying to close. And my "lack of scholarship?" That is a cute little dig there. You are a funny one. You haven't a clue about me or my scholarship. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that there is something curious about all these stories being similar and perhaps over time some have tried to make them more similar than they really are. Perhaps others have tried to make them LESS similar than they really are?

I have asked you repeatedly to prove me wrong about something. Anything......you can't do it. It's okay Bigwhammy....don't let your ego get in the way of that fantastic scholarship of yours!

reply to post by darkelf

When you say that you believe in God, I am assuming that you believe in a supreme being, not necessarily the God Yahweh of the Bible. You do understand that God is a title and not a name?

Darkelf....I haven't seen you in a long time. When I say I believe in God, I mean I believe in God. THERE IS ONLY ONE. You can name Him what you want. You can create whatever stories you want. You can find whatever stories you want. You all with your more than one gods, need to wake up. If you believe there is more than one god, then you are a Pagan (and there is nothing wrong with that). Christians do not have their own god and then there is some other god for everyone else. Sorry...it doesn't work that way.

YOU do understand that God is God no matter how many stories there are about Him and no matter how many names we give Him?

[edit on 9-4-2008 by Excitable_Boy]

I guess Bigwhammy gave up.

Final score:

EB: 1
BW: 0

You seem to have been all talk and no action. You couldn't deliver what I asked, so disappeared. Basically, took your ball and went home with your tail between your legs. That's okay. You can't win them all Bigwhammy.....Do you win any? I ask because I know it's all about winning for you with your "cased closed" mentality when you can't prove someone wrong or answer their questions. And it is extremely important for you to be right...so important that you ignore simple logic.

As I said earlier, don't let that ego get in the way of your excellent scholarship!! Maybe debating is not your game.....

I would like to throw out a challenge right now though. You and me...debate a topic. You pick the topic. I think we can do this somewhere on this forum can't we? Mods, am I right. Isn't there a place where the two of us can do a one on one debate?

I will be out of town for a week, so I will not be able to take part until April 20th or later......

Peace, love and serenity to all!

reply to post by Excitable_Boy


Oh you think because you bait me with your self proclaimed victory, that I will stoop to your Jerry Springer show level of discourse. I admit I have been guilty of falling into your world. I have decided to stop. I believe real communication requires a level of integrity. You're not worth the trouble...

Hey You win! You always do!!!!

reply to post by Bigwhammy

Oh you think because you bait me with your self proclaimed victory, that I will stoop to your Jerry Springer show level of discourse. I admit I have been guilty of falling into your world. I have decided to stop. I believe real communication requires a level of integrity. You're not worth the trouble...

Hey You win!

Bait you? I challenged you to a debate. If you aren't up to the challenge that is fine. Don't try to turn the tables because you're afraid to debate me. My discourse is hardly Jerry Springer-like. Have you re-read many of your posts in that "Atheist Conspiracy" thread? I think you should judge your own behavior instead of trying to take the attention off of your own shortcomings.

You fell into my world? No.....take responsibility for your actions and behaviors.

You believe real discourse requires a certain level of integrity? So you are leaving to learn how to communicate with more integrity? Well...good for you. It's always good to work on improving oneself. When you get to a level where you can handle debating me, send me a U2U.

Be honest: It's not that I am not worth the trouble....it's just that you are not up to the challenge. Your ego can't handle losing....and you know you would lose.

Oh....and I know I won!


Peace!


[edit on 11-4-2008 by Excitable_Boy]

reply to post by Excitable_Boy





You are the champion!