Are Atheists Air Brushing History?

Allrighty then!

North Korea is a repressive communist state and is officially atheistic. The North Korean government practices brutal atrocities and repression against North Korean Christians.

North Korea is widely considered to be a Stalinist dictatorship. The country's government styles itself as following the Juche ideology of self reliance, developed by Kim Il-sung, the country's first president. The current leader is Kim Jong-il, the late president Kim Il-sung's son. Relations are strongest with other officially socialist states, Vietnam, Laos, and especially China, as well as with Cambodia and Burma. Following a major famine in the early 1990s after the collapse of the Soviet Union (previously a major economic partner), leader Kim Jong-il instigated the "Military-First" policy in 1995, increasing economic concentration and support for the military.

wiki

The Killing Fields of North Korea







[edit on 3/28/2008 by Bigwhammy]

The national ideology of North Korea "Juche" has been named the world's 10th-largest religion. Juche has been translated in North Korean sources as "independent stand" and the "spirit of self-reliance".

From a sociological point of view, juche delivers a full range of what a religion is supposed to deliver in society, the website says, explaining its rationale for classifying North Korea's state doctrine as a religion. In fact, the site has a separate link devoted wholly to explaining painstakingly in multiple pages the theoretical and sociological basis of what makes juche count as a religion.

This view, however, is not necessarily shared in North Korea, which is after all a communist country and officially atheistic. The Pyongyang government promotes juche as a state ideology but does not outwardly endorse it as a religion. North Koreans actually use the term juche sasang, meaning the "juche ideology".

Asia Times Online

I can't believe they pushed a shovel handle up that woman and left her there to die. And this is not supposed to worry me as a woman with children? The way females are treated by people who have no "standard" set of moral guidelines to follow, is really disgusting.

If the society has no respect for women, the problem gets worse from there.
Atheism claims to champion the rights of women, but that's only here, in America and in a few other parts of the western world. If the western world changes, the way women are treated will change with it. And without a moral guideline to follow this will become a cesspool as well.

reply to post by undo


It is very scary. I think we take a lot for granted being in America. I complain about it here but it sure beats that!! Now the really scary part for us in this scenario is...

On Dec. 10, 2002, North Korea announced it would restart plutonium production and eject the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) inspectors who monitored North Korea's compliance with the Agreed Framework. On Jan. 10, North Korea withdrew from the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT), an international accord prohibiting the acquisition and proliferation of nuclear weapons.

Nuclear Issues

OHHH It's worse than that.

The 2006 North Korean nuclear test was the detonation of a nuclear device conducted on October 9, 2006 by the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

The director of America's Central Intelligence Agency has said that the test was a "failure" and that the U.S. does not regard North Korea as a nuclear state. North Korea announced its intention to conduct a test on October 3, six days prior, and in doing so became the first nation to give warning of its first nuclear test. The blast is estimated to have had an explosive force of less than one kiloton, and some radioactive output was detected. United States officials suggested the device may have been a nuclear explosive that misfired.

wiki

Originally posted by undo
If the society has no respect for women, the problem gets worse from there.
Atheism claims to champion the rights of women, but that's only here, in America and in a few other parts of the western world. If the western world changes, the way women are treated will change with it. And without a moral guideline to follow this will become a cesspool as well.

Buddhists are atheistic and haven't been treated that well either [ever heared of tibet?] so saying it's only believers that are persecuted by communist rule is innacurate.

Edit. Please do not say/infer atheists have no have moral guidelines. It is offensive and illogical as the attitudes of some religions towards women is deplorable. Some moral guidelines really aren't all that 'moral'.

opting out of this thread. this feels futile.


[edit on 28-3-2008 by riley]

reply to post by riley


riley I posted a lot of information on tibet last night. It is a few pages back in the thread. The offically atheist government of China is persecuting them badly.


Here let me make it easy for you.
My pleasure to help:

this post

also this post

Greg Koukl answers the claim that God should be held liable for crimes against humanity.

reply to post by riley


reply to post by Bigwhammy


I mentioned Buddhism as well on the very first page of this thread. See: HERE.

Sure, Buddhists might not believe in a deity but it is still considered a religion, belief system, philosophy (or what have you) that is being persecuted by secular atheistic states in the East.

It's very, very sad.

reply to post by riley


what set of moral guidelines do you follow? only those provided by the social structure you're in. if you end up in a place where women are treated badly, you will be EXPECTED to do the same. what will stop you from doing so, if it's the norm and expected of you?

reply to post by Bigwhammy


again with the communist = atheist point

please, direct me to where this is being done in the name of not believing in a deity.
looking at things it's quite obvious that this oppression is being done in the name of the communist "people's" state.

one more thing...you said china's government is officially atheistic...are you confusing the word atheistic and secular?

china has many people who practice christianity unharmed and the majority practice chinese traditional religions...
in fact, the most oppressed religious group in china is the northern muslim group...but they tend to be oppressed because they have an anti-government stance
any pro-government religious group is left unharmed, it's the anti-government religions that are harmed
so how is something that's clearly in the name of government power a result of atheism?

Originally posted by AshleyD
I mentioned Buddhism as well on the very first page of this thread. See: HERE.

Sure, Buddhists might not believe in a deity but it is still considered a religion, belief system, philosophy (or what have you) that is being persecuted by secular atheistic states in the East.

It's very, very sad.

here's a perfect example of what i'm talking about.
why are the buddhists in tibet being oppressed? is it because china is some evil atheist empire bent on wiping out religion or is it because they want more control in tibet and see the buddhist presence as a threat to that?

it's a simple matter of state, not a matter of religion.

[edit on 3/28/08 by madnessinmysoul]

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
I contend that Atheists, specifically radical Atheists led by Richard Dawkins, are conspiring to air brush history to conceal the connection between Atheism and the worst atrocities of world history.

Late in the day to this subject - don't visit this forum often.

Hitler was a confirmed Roman Catholic and christian

Hitlers Christianity

Ain't no one airbrushing what he was responsible for.

reply to post by neformore


Anyone can SAY that God spoke to them and told them to do something.
Constantine, Various Popes, Almost EVERY world leader.

Visit my thread on the Inquisitions, please.
What we are discussing is the OBVIOUS role of atheism in many dictatorships and social movements of the world.

MIMS, China was declared an atheistic state.
Are you saying that by atheistic, they meant, secular, or just uninvolved?

reply to post by neformore


I had to star neformore, (not that a Mod needs a star?)....and suddenly your avatar changed? I know, I know, it's off-topic, but it was interesting.

Back to what I keep saying....it got lost many posts back...the term air-brushing used to refer to what you did to a photo to change something...this, very old-fashioned term before the advent of computer programs like, say....photoshop.

I use my airbrushes to paint my models that I build. Some actual artists use airbrushes to paint the side of a Van, or to paint a T-shirt. (man, am I stuck in the 70s or what?)

So...air-brushing....it's an iconic term, I suppose. I prefer a more prosaic term, 're-writing'. As I've noted before, the winners are always in the position to 're-write' history....nowadays, we call it 'spinning' since it's happening right under our noses, not years later...

In any case, a lie is a lie. Whether you 'air-brush' a photo to make it look better, or different, whether you 're-write' history decades later or whether you go up to a podium and 'spin' something that your boss said yesterday, in order to deflect attention and change the context, a lie is a lie.

Do 'atheists' have the horsepower necessary to 'air brush' history??? I think not. I think a lot of 'air brushing' has been done by others beforehand, so to speak. It is necessary that someone come along and wipe off the old paint to reveal the truth beneath......
[edit to respell 'burshing']

[edit on 28-3-2008 by weedwhacker]

Originally posted by Clearskies
Anyone can SAY that God spoke to them and told them to do something.

In the same way as anyone can claim anything about god, be it the existence of a deity, the interpretations of its thoughts, and its perceived involvement in history that is supposedly being airbrushed out.

You're arguing against yourself by raising that point, if you think about it.

It seems that the main theme of this thread has become - not that atheists are "airbrushing" history - but that atheism causes genocidal tendencies. The problem I see with that logic is that if you blame atheism for the genocides of Stalin and Mao, you must blame Christianity for the genocides of Hitler and others.

I also think this idea of "my religion killed less than yours" is pretty ridiculous. If any religion has killed a single person the religion is evil. Yet religions don't kill people; people kill people. Christianity is not to blame for the genocides of Hitler, and atheism is not the cause for genocides of Stalin. These men made their own conscious decisions, possibly using their beliefs to justify their actions, but that doesn't change the fact that they made these decisions themselves. Faith in your own beliefs being superior to others' beliefs is the danger, and I see it in people in this very thread from both sides of the argument.

Are atheists conspiring to re-write history? No. Richard Dawkins simply posed a theory, (notice how the "Root of all Evil?" has a question mark throughout the movie...) He came up with a theory, posed it to the public, and that's all he's done. Does he believe his theory is sound? Probably. Do others? Definitely. But they're not trying to re-write history any more than anyone else.

In reality, we all re-write history for our own personal convictions. Those who are Christians can quote Thomas Jefferson just as quickly as those who are anti-Christian. We all have paradigms, and filter out the historical things that don't fit those paradigms. The conspiracy is in our own minds. And we're all doing it. The Catholic Church and other church's are guilty of it more so than any other group in history, (the history that fits my paradigm, anyway.) Personally it won't affect my beliefs. I don't need to look at the history of beliefs to be able to figure things out for myself. I'm not an atheist because some other guy in history was, and I'm not going to stop being an atheist just because some other was.

I don't think the believers have anything to be afraid of, though. Atheists are so outnumbered, even in scientific circles, that there won't be much history airbrushing going on, even if there is a conspiracy to do so. And on top of that, you all seem worried about being the victims of genocide because of Dawkins?! Seriously...I mean....c'mon!

reply to post by an3rkist


Brilliant post, an3arkist.

Gave you a star for that one!!

Wish I could give more, but rules don't allow....

Tim/WW

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
why are the buddhists in tibet being oppressed? is it because china is some evil atheist empire bent on wiping out religion or is it because they want more control in tibet and see the buddhist presence as a threat to that?

I'm not exactly sure how what you just said helped your case. Buddhism is a threat so it needs to be oppressed politically? That really makes no sense and does not justify what Tibet is doing in the least.

Regardless, everyone seems to be missing a huge point in the 'airbrushing' angle. It seems foolish to focus solely on the communism/atheism connection in terms of atheistic atrocities.

The larger issue is the 'airbrushing' done by Dawkins and others like him who claim religion and faith is essentially the cause of all that is wrong with the world and the cause of conflicts.

What is occurring does not necessarily have to be done 'in the name of atheism' in my opinion for there to be a problem. Those who fall back on this defense are denying the fact religion is not the only catalyst. Claiming such conflicts are all religion-based is a severe distortion of history. Secular/Atheistic states due just as much harm in the name of 'politics.'

reply to post by AshleyD


Dear Ash, t respond directly to you latest post....Dawkins hit the nail on the head, as the saying goes, by asserting that religion causes evil.

My opinion, I've said it before....it is the fact of organized religion causing the evil.

The belief in God isn't evil, it is what has transpired 'in the name' of God, perpetrated by humans...mostly men, at least in the Christian faith (and the Muslim, which is just an off-shoot....). You may scold me for this opinion, but it fits into the reality of history.

I will be really bold here, and proclaim that Christianity is actually an off-shoot of Judaism....as I've said, I'm not a true scholar, just an interested observer who has a brain to think independently.

Judaism is a very ancient religion, I don't think I'm saying anything here that is incorrect? Christ was originally expected to be the prophet, the 'King of the Jews'....am I correct so far?

However, long story short, everything seemed to go wrong, and the purveyors of the 'faith' needed to flip the script....less they lose the attention of the 'flock' and thus their control over them.

THIS is a short reality check on what happened....history was 'aribrushed' centuries ago, to get us to this point, where we now debate it...it was done by MEN. Since airbrushes weren't invented yet, they just re-wrote (or re-told...equals lied) history. Even when the New Testament was being compiled they were editing!!!

I don't make this up, it is established and known...because of brave people who dare to take the lid off and reveal the truth!!

Best, Tim/WW

Originally posted by an3rkist
Are atheists conspiring to re-write history? No. Richard Dawkins simply posed a theory, (notice how the "Root of all Evil?" has a question mark throughout the movie...) He came up with a theory, posed it to the public, and that's all he's done. Does he believe his theory is sound? Probably.

I can't help myself sometimes, pedants unite! Dyslexics, untie!...

Dawkins has clearly stated that he thinks blaming any one thing for being the 'root of all evil' is pretty silly. The problem is that some people want to misrepresent Dawkins. Not you, mind. I'm sure you didn't know his position, at least you noted the question mark that becomes invisible in some people's minds. Like an ideological dyslexia.

ABE: see whata mean...

The larger issue is the 'airbrushing' done by Dawkins and others like him who claim religion and faith is essentially the cause of all that is wrong with the world and the cause of conflicts.

Not sure dawkins has ever said that religion and faith is 'essentially the cause' of all wrong in the world.

[edit on 28-3-2008 by melatonin]