Ghosts are spirits serving Satan

Your post makes sense to me. It has logic, may not be proveable, but, still seems logical to me

your actually right on the money.

unsaved wont be able to understand, they like to think casper the friendly ghost

i believe that the saved wont see spirits or ghost or demons. its like a rule but also there is nothing in it for them.

saved shouldnt go lookig for that either i have never seen anything at all.


when the guy says hey this ghost shut my barn ok and well? it means interaction doesnt meen freindly.


and he distracted and impressed him and help carve out his non saved beliefs and if that keeps him and his buddies from getting saved then that demon has done its job.

it is a spiratual war these ghost are just demons trying to get your soul for them and if they can do it nice fun and firendly they will

good post

one thing though satan isnt in hell yet. GOD runs hell or its sitting there i am not sure if the dead are seperated or in hell non saved.

prince power in the air is satan and he is here, his inst the head of hell and goes back and forth

one day he will be put there and then allowed to escape and then pput in the lake of fire


good post

Hey Zane, interesting thread topic for believers, I'm curious as to what they have to say about it. The difficulty I have with your theory is that it only have 2 options, both of which are inferred by the Bible, not necessarily stated. A kind of "since God tells us to not speak or mess with the dead/sprits, there are therefore all evil". Maybe so, but maybe not.

There is the Holy Ghost, yes? Or are you taking 'spirit' in a metaphorical term?

We know that Saul got into some deep ah...mud for consulting the dead and there are many warnings not to so. But, apparently sometimes they come to us. How do we handle that? The Bible provides the following instruction:

"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world." - 1 John 4:1

There's more to that chapter and would encourage reading it.

Someone else had brought up this incident with Jesus: "His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them. And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus." - Mark 9:3-4

cross reference: "As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning." - Luke 9:29

Dazzling white, sounds a bit ghost-like, does it not? And two dead guys who we know from the old testament, Elija and Moses. Are they servants of Satan?

"When the disciples saw him walking on the lake, they were terrified. "It's a ghost," they said, and cried out in fear.

But Jesus immediately said to them: "Take courage! It is I. Don't be afraid." - Matthew 14:26

Although we know it was Jesus, that wasn't what they thought at first apparently. It took some convincing "Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." - Luke 24:39

God says, " 'Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God." - Leviticus 19:31

"Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you." - Deuteronomy 18:10-12

The Bible makes a distinction in spirits by stating 'evil' such in these cases:

"God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the citizens of Shechem, who acted treacherously against Abimelech." - Judges 9:23

"Now the Spirit of the LORD had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him." - 1 Samuel 16:14

"He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and to heal every disease and sickness." - Matthew 10:1

"Crowds gathered also from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing their sick and those tormented by evil spirits, and all of them were healed." - Acts 5:16

etc. There are about 44 references to evil spirits.

If there are no good spirits, why would a distinction have to be made?

Personally i dont think that spirits are able to be contacted properly, thats why i hate psychics and ooija board stuff.

So being an atheist i believe that there is scientific theory behind the paranormal rather than a religious based one. So i dont think that ghosts are manipulated by the devil, god or anyone.

So thats my opinion

Originally posted by airborne82ndscout
i believe that the saved wont see spirits or ghost or demons.

Saved means protected, not blinded.

Originally posted by airborne82ndscout
its like a rule but also there is nothing in it for them.

Kinda. This can get difficult and involved. Do you believe a saved person can be turned away from God?

Originally posted by airborne82ndscout
saved shouldnt go lookig for that either i have never seen anything at all.

I agree it's not what a saved person seeks and is something to be thankful for if you don't see anything at all.

[edit on 2-10-2007 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world." - 1 John 4:1

God says, " 'Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God." - Leviticus 19:31

If there are no good spirits, why would a distinction have to be made?

You make some excellent points, and you have succeeded in changing my mind in thinking all spirit contact is bad.

The more I re-read your post, I'm thinking the distinction is in "who made the contact with whom." If your dead grandmother contacts you out of the blue, it might actually be your dead grandmother calling from Heaven--but you must test the spirit.

On the other hand, if you go looking for contact from your dead grandmother, that is forbidden because you are about 99.99% likely to contact a demon or an unsaved "ghost" instead.

Excellent points. Thank you.

reply to post by Zane Zackerly


When you talk about contacting dead relatives, are you talking about contacting them through a psychic, or is there another method?

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by airborne82ndscout
i believe that the saved wont see spirits or ghost or demons.

Saved means protected, not blinded.

Originally posted by airborne82ndscout
its like a rule but also there is nothing in it for them.

Kinda. This can get difficult and involved. Do you believe a saved person can be turned away from God?

I want to hear more about these.

Originally posted by OzWeatherman
reply to post by Zane Zackerly

 

When you talk about contacting dead relatives, are you talking about contacting them through a psychic, or is there another method?

There are many methods, some of them rather innocent.

Believe it or not, Ed and Lorraine Warren tell the story of a person who spoke to spirits through an antique mirror.

Originally posted by Zane Zackerly
You make some excellent points, and you have succeeded in changing my mind in thinking all spirit contact is bad.

Hehe, cool. I wasn't trying to sway your thinking on the matter, just wanted to help put some ideas for critical thinking out there. The fact that you're open-minded to another's perspective is very commendable . Other than God, angel, Holy Spirit or Christ, I cannot think of a 'good contact' from an otherworldly realm so there's merit to your point. It appears to me that the spiritual world is polarized...on one side of the fence or the other and it's us humans who get "lost in the grey".

Originally posted by Zane Zackerly
The more I re-read your post, I'm thinking the distinction is in "who made the contact with whom." If your dead grandmother contacts you out of the blue, it might actually be your dead grandmother calling from Heaven--but you must test the spirit.

On the other hand, if you go looking for contact from your dead grandmother, that is forbidden because you are about 99.99% likely to contact a demon or an unsaved "ghost" instead.

I think you're on it ^_^, good call! Probably better advice than I could've given.

Originally posted by Zane Zackerly
Excellent points. Thank you.

Certainly welcome! I'd like to throw another theory into the mix. May times people claim to see historical ghosts and even reinactments of events. What if time isn't what we thought it was? For example, when you set up a heat-signature camera, you can still see the traces of let's say four people in a room several minutes after they left (like this ). What if we're just seeing a similar signature? These would be the non-interactive kinds of spirits I think where all we're doing is observing things that have already happened. For us humans to know anything, we have to put it in order of time and sequence things out else we have no track of change. I don't think God or perhaps beings in the spiritual realm have this difficulty. Time looks linear to us, but what does it look like to them? A circle? Spiral? Folded like paper with overlaps? Who knows? Love this topic, thanks for firing it up.


[edit on 2-10-2007 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
May times people claim to see historical ghosts and even reinactments of events. What if time isn't what we thought it was? For example, when you set up a heat-signature camera, you can still see the traces of let's say four people in a room several minutes after they left. What if we're just seeing a similar signature? These would be the non-interactive kinds of spirits I think where all we're doing is observing things that have already happened. For us humans to know anything, we have to put it in order of time and sequence things out else we have no track of change. I don't think God or perhaps beings in the spiritual realm have this difficulty. Time looks linear to us, but what does it look like to them? A circle? Spiral? Folded like paper with overlaps? Who knows? Love this topic, thanks for firing it up.

[edit on 2-10-2007 by saint4God]

Here's what I think: I believe some forms of Hellish torment involve reliving a tragic or traumatic event over and over. The damned soul is forced to relive the hours before its death through all eternity.

I believe what we call "damnation" is maybe more complicated than simply "going to Hell." I believe the actual mechanism involved is that the unsaved person dies, and is kidnapped and taken to Hell by demons that roam the earth looking for new victims. I believe that some "ghosts" may be the unsaved dead who have successfully hidden from demons (temporarily!) and will eventually be taken to Hell when they are "found."

Remember, demons live in darkness. They are not omniscient. Just because you die, they may not find your soul for a few minutes to a few centuries. Your soul, unable to go to Heaven, may remain earthbound until a demon finds you and grabs you.

I also believe that the unsaved dead are drafted into the service of deceiving people. Your dead, unsaved relative dies. He/she is intercepted by a demon while out of the body. The person realizes his/her fate in the afterlife, and the demon begins to control that person. The demon compels the unsaved spirit to obey it. The person returns to the place where he/she died to be a "ghost" and to deceive people into believing there is an afterlife without damnation or salvation.

If you try to interact with that dead relative, you are no longer interacting with "Good Ol' Uncle Jim", but "Uncle Jim Under the Influence of Demons."



[edit on 10/2/07 by Zane Zackerly]

Originally posted by Zane Zackerly

Originally posted by saint4God
Kinda. This can get difficult and involved. Do you believe a saved person can be turned away from God?

I want to hear more about these.

I'd try to explain. We'll do an "if, then" set of scenarios

If you believe a person can be turned away from God, a demon can still party on in your life. He's got an objective so long as he thinks he can win.

If you believe a person cannot be turned away from God, then it more than likely is a waste of energy/resources that can be better spent on an unbeliever. Here's the thing though, just because YOU are protected does not mean that you cannot be negatively influenced (via sin nature) or that your household is protected. God may give you the eyes to help spot danger to others, not merely yourself.

Originally posted by Zane Zackerly
Here's what I think: I believe some forms of Hellish torment involve reliving a tragic or traumatic event over and over. The damned soul is forced to relive the hours before its death through all eternity.

So we're watching someone stuck in Hell replay? Ugh, that's got to suck.

Originally posted by Zane Zackerly
I believe what we call "damnation" is maybe more complicated than simply "going to Hell." I believe the actual mechanism involved is that the unsaved person dies, and is kidnapped and taken to Hell by demons that roam the earth looking for new victims. I believe that some "ghosts" may be the unsaved dead who have successfully hidden from demons (temporarily!) and will eventually be taken to Hell when they are "found."

What's the purpose in the delay?

Originally posted by Zane Zackerly
I also believe that the unsaved dead are drafted into the service of deceiving people. Your dead, unsaved relative dies. He/she is intercepted by a demon while out of the body. The person realizes his/her fate in the afterlife, and the demon begins to control that person. The demon compels the unsaved spirit to obey it. The person returns to the place where he/she died to be a "ghost" and to deceive people into believing there is an afterlife without damnation or salvation.

Okay, okay, slow up please . When people see a ghost, there are four things that people think about that they may not normally otherwise:

1.) Death

2.) Fear

3.) Eternity

4.) Afterlife

It could be argued that God sent these images of dead relatives to wake up sleepwalkers and get them thinking, "hm...maybe I should do something about where I'm going to spend eternity". Not saying it is this way, just a point of consideration.

Originally posted by Zane Zackerly
If you try to interact with that dead relative, you are no longer interacting with "Good Ol' Uncle Jim", but "Uncle Jim Under the Influence of Demons."

Maybe. Although I'm inclined to agree I cannot say for certain. I'm trying to put myself in that place to where I see my uncle (who is dead) and he pops in to say "Hey [my name here], it's me!". I would then say "Hi! Do you have a message for me?" The moments thereafter would be the clincher.

If he said, "No, just dropping in to let you know I made it and God says hi". Sweet, I'm feeling good about that.

If he said, "Yes, you need to believe that good and evil are subjective, they don't matter, we all sit around for eternity eating pie and telling jokes." Fat chance I'm being told the truth. It contradicts all other supernatural experiences I've had.


[edit on 2-10-2007 by saint4God]

In the bible, it says that the ones dead in Christ will go with him first before the living so what I take is that the dead have not been judge, therefor do not go to Heaven or Hell. I think maybe that once you die, you fast forward to Judgement as time does not apply to in death. Also if it was demons pretending to be spirits to prove their is no Heaven or Hell, why go to that trouble? If there hasn't been any spiritual activity, then more people would believe there is nothing after you die, therefor not accepting Christ= go directly to Hell, do not pass go, do not collect $200.
Now for all the Atheists and non Christians, I don't think the OP wanted this to be a debate on whether or not God exists or whether or not He is the right God to worship. I think the OP just want to open a thread and talk about spirits. There are tons of other threads on ATS for debating Christians.

Oooh! Love this, ward is getting into the thick of it. Let's go!

Originally posted by wardk28
In the bible, it says that the ones dead in Christ will go with him first before the living so what I take is that the dead have not been judge, therefor do not go to Heaven or Hell.

I think there's good substantiation of this in Revelation. The only difficulty I see in that is if you believe Revelation happens 'outside of time' and the passage means we are judged individually when we die. Also, there are those believers with out of body/near death experiences who might say otherwise.

Originally posted by wardk28
I think maybe that once you die, you fast forward to Judgement as time does not apply to in death.

Ya, substantiation there too:

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality." - 1 Corinthians 15:51-53

All I have to say is "wow"

Originally posted by wardk28
Also if it was demons pretending to be spirits to prove their is no Heaven or Hell, why go to that trouble?

Hey, if it works, I've no doubt they'd do it. Look at their leader in Genesis.

Originally posted by wardk28
If there hasn't been any spiritual activity, then more people would believe there is nothing after you die, therefor not accepting Christ= go directly to Hell, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

Good point!!! A+ critical thinking here. I'd like to hear an address to this if anyone has one.

Originally posted by wardk28
Now for all the Atheists and non Christians, I don't think the OP wanted this to be a debate on whether or not God exists or whether or not He is the right God to worship. I think the OP just want to open a thread and talk about spirits. There are tons of other threads on ATS for debating Christians.

Yeah, but, with all due respect the answers are predictable. "God and Satan do not exist so ghosts can't serve Satan etc. etc. etc." In order for the argument to be remotely interesting, they'd have to accept the precidents in the post that both God and Satan exist, then explain to which (if either) they are aligned.

[edit on 2-10-2007 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by Zane Zackerly
I believe what we call "damnation" is maybe more complicated than simply "going to Hell." I believe the actual mechanism involved is that the unsaved person dies, and is kidnapped and taken to Hell by demons that roam the earth looking for new victims. I believe that some "ghosts" may be the unsaved dead who have successfully hidden from demons (temporarily!) and will eventually be taken to Hell when they are "found."

What's the purpose in the delay?

Originally posted by Zane Zackerly
I also believe that the unsaved dead are drafted into the service of deceiving people. Your dead, unsaved relative dies. He/she is intercepted by a demon while out of the body. The person realizes his/her fate in the afterlife, and the demon begins to control that person. The demon compels the unsaved spirit to obey it. The person returns to the place where he/she died to be a "ghost" and to deceive people into believing there is an afterlife without damnation or salvation.

Okay, okay, slow up please

. When people see a ghost, there are four things that people think about that they may not normally otherwise:

1.) Death

2.) Fear

3.) Eternity

4.) Afterlife

It could be argued that God sent these images of dead relatives to wake up sleepwalkers and get them thinking, "hm...maybe I should do something about where I'm going to spend eternity". Not saying it is this way, just a point of consideration.

There is no "reason" or "purpose" for the "delay" as such; it's just that even supernatural things have a mechanism. Why did Jesus caution people not to touch Him until He was completely glorified? Answer: the "mechansim" of His resurrection was not complete. Those people might very well have inherited eternal life right then if He had allowed them to touch Him.

"Thinking about death" if the messenger is a ghost might make you "think" the afterlife is just your spirit going wherever it wants to: no judgment, no reward. Just you being you.

[edit on 10/2/07 by Zane Zackerly]

reply to post by saint4God


I am just sick and tried of a thread that starts with a good premise like this one and it goes into a God vs No God thread where the original idea is lost among the neverending debate on who is right and wrong. By the way, you have made some good point and I thank you for you imput. God Bless.

Originally posted by Zane Zackerly
There is no "reason" or "purpose" for the "delay" as such; it's just that even supernatural things have a mechanism. Why did Jesus caution people not to touch Him until He was completely glorified? Answer: the "mechansim" of His resurrection was not complete.

Do you believe God does things without reason or purpose?

Originally posted by Zane Zackerly
Those people might very well have inherited eternal life right then if He had allowed them to touch Him.

Cool! Never heard this idea before . Could be, could be. I never knew why, but given the pillar of salt example in the old testament, we have plenty of demonstrations why we should listen to what God says.

Originally posted by Zane Zackerly
"Thinking about death" if the messenger is a ghost might make you "think" the afterlife is just your spirit going wherever it wants to: no judgment, no reward. Just you being you.

I see, comfort in continuation. I'd like to know if there are non-believers who have been comforted by ancestral spirits roaming about. I'd imagine so and may be a good reason for a deceiver to make their appearance as such...to keep them from discovering the right path. Question then is, do the spirits know your inclining towards a right path before you do?

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by Zane Zackerly
There is no "reason" or "purpose" for the "delay" as such; it's just that even supernatural things have a mechanism. Why did Jesus caution people not to touch Him until He was completely glorified? Answer: the "mechansim" of His resurrection was not complete.

Do you believe God does things without reason or purpose?

No, not at all. But we do not understand every purpose. Think of it like this: even if every baby born is a miracle, it still takes nine months to accomplish, and it still took the mechanism of the sex act to cause it.

Similarly, I believe salvation and damnation have their "mechanism" as well.

Let's take it from the other side. Salvation gives you a ticket to Heaven, but how do you physically get there? I don't know where it is. Is it in another dimension, beyond the farthest star?

When you die as a saved person, I believe your "ticket" to Heaven means that angels are waiting when you die to whisk you off to Paradise. You have no means of getting there on your own. When an unsaved person dies, there are no angels waiting. The dead person is simply left to his own devices. Because the enemy is like a lion seeking whom he may devour, he and his minions roam the earth looking for fresh disembodied souls. I believe actual "damnation" and being "sentenced" to punishment don't actually happen until judgment day. The saved dead are in Paradise until then; the unsaved dead are disembodied spirits that are earthbound but subject to demonic capture and removal to Hell.

The Devil would happily have one of his demons grab a saved soul at the point of death, but since God knows the moment of your death, His angels are waiting.

No, I can't quote specific scriptures to support these thoughts...this is just what I believe.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by Zane Zackerly
"Thinking about death" if the messenger is a ghost might make you "think" the afterlife is just your spirit going wherever it wants to: no judgment, no reward. Just you being you.

I see, comfort in continuation. I'd like to know if there are non-believers who have been comforted by ancestral spirits roaming about. I'd imagine so and may be a good reason for a deceiver to make their appearance as such...to keep them from discovering the right path. Question then is, do the spirits know your inclining towards a right path before you do?

It happens all the time. Do you think the Greeks, Romans, pagans, whomever, would have kept praying to statues without results?

Oh, no! My friend! They must have been under the influence of demons willing to "answer" their "prayers" as a mechanism of continuing the deception. The price exacted by the demons for answering "prayers" can become very steep: look at the Aztecs with their human sacrifice.

Similarly, those who pray to ancestral spirits must be getting some kind of positive reinforcement or their religions would die out.

You see why things are more complicated than just scratching your head wondering how anyone could pray to a block of stone carved into a shape?

Remember, the Devil most wants the worship deserved by God. If he doesn't "perform", then his "believers" will stop praying to him, or whatever pleasing shape he has assumed.

There are actually people who see ghosts and ask them for assistance.

But then I'm opening another can of worms.



[edit on 10/2/07 by Zane Zackerly]