A Modest Proposal

There have been several threads lately that have bemoaned the state of ufology. It has no recognized academic standing. It has no standards of proof. You can’t get a degree in the subject matter that shows a minimal level of expertise. It is attractive to charlatans and hoaxers as well as nutcases and the socially inept. Anyone can play in this sandbox. For those in favor of democracy, you’ve got it. Age is no barrier. Everyone has the same vote. Only persistence and eloquence (not always in the same person) propel you forward. Perhaps that is a Good Thing.

The problem, though, is that with everyone equal, there is no forward momentum. The forums, especially, are a maelstrom of activity with the same issues coming to the surface again and again and again. It’s like running a month long race across the country, except one of the requirements is that you must return to the starting place every night. We’re in a rut here, folks. What’s the real problem?

One of the problems is a lack of knowledge. Many, if not most of the people posting really do not know what they are talking about. Bear with me for a minute. What I am saying is that they are not familiar with the vast treasure of UFO literature and the history of the subject. If you haven’t read “UFOs and the National Security State” by Richard Dolan, how can you pretend to wax eloquent about government secrecy? If you haven’t read “Intruders” and “Missing Time” by Budd Hopkins, how can you pretend to be familiar with modern abductee and contactee literature? You may recognize the name George Adamski, but do you know what he said and what he claimed? Raise your hand if you have actually read, from cover to cover, “Flying Saucers Have Landed.” See? No hands. Well, one; mine. If you subscribe to an inter-dimensional theory, can you recount the major points of “Messengers of Deception?” Do you know who wrote it? Who was Edward Ruppelt? You DO know about Roswell, of course, but can you recount the differences in theory and approach between Stanton Friedman and Kevin Randle and Karl Korf? And you know, I think we need a basic course in logic by reading Copi’s “Introduction to Logic.” Sorry. There are way too many arguments committing logical fallacies.

Obviously we could fill several posts just asking these sorts of questions. How about answering them instead? How about setting up a system whereby a group selected the top 25 or so UFO titles of all time, maybe more, constructed tests based on the contents, administered them, and awarded a certificate of completion: ATS UFO Specialist. Thus people reading posts from such a designee would know he or she has met a minimum set of standards on knowledge of the subject.

If you are familiar with what Adamski actually said, for example, you will quickly recognize that sleeper, with his extensive thread on ATS, is a classic Adamski-type contactee. You will see the close similarity between Adamski’s message and Greer’s. You’ll have a sense of UFO history that allows you to recognize when the same things start to happen all over again. In theory, your posts will raise the bar in terms of relevancy and accuracy.

MUFON has tried this approach, but I think they are stuck in the fifties on what they do. They have a Field Investigator’s Manual and a curriculum. This teaches you the way to measure landing traces and figure out altitude of lights in the sky. Okay, but I don’t think this is what we want. It’s nowhere near comprehensive enough; and, frankly, I’m tired of lights in the sky.

There are any number of ways this whole idea can be approached, including the curricula itself and how extensive an operation would be required. If there is sufficient interest here I would propose that we approach ATS staff to work on this in the Scholar Forum as a research project. It would take some commitment on part of the participants to essentially ‘take the course’ in designing it, plus follow up with relevant examinations, agree to standards of quality, and be in a position to administer the program. I would suggest a small group to start, three or four, to hash out the basic approach and outline, then a solicitation of more participants to do the hard work of formulating the curriculum and then administering it. The whole thing could be done online, even with online examinations (done like a survey).

Make no mistake, this project would require time and effort, the ability to meet deadlines, and the cooperation and even help of ATS staff. It could expand to offer several courses in various aspects. If there is interest as expressed by this thread, let’s take it to the next level.


[edit on 6/3/2007 by schuyler]

Shuyler, I think your idea has great merit. Any way that I can be of service, please let me know.

And if this does get off the ground, I will provide what ongoing assistance that would be in line with my abilities.

I can understand your concerns about this site taking
the punishment it does daily and I agree, a lot of 'us'
are lacking knowledge when it comes to certain areas
of Ufology.

The problem I initially see, is that there's no real proof
of anything that warrents concern of other civilisations
visiting Earth.
I know, I know... here we go again a debunker, but if
I am, why am I here? You yourself indicate that this site
would just go on and on, recycling and debating views.
But if these supposed craft weren't man-made, do you
really think that countries around the world would all
conspire to cover it up?
I mean wars, famine and espionage have failed to make
anything positive surface to general public, what...
an agreement that no matter what, we'll not spill the
beans?

Every major case that arrives on this site turns out to be
a hoax, dubious or falls away into a debate of semantics.l

There are people here who say they're REAL aliens, they
debate topics that are, frankly, outlandish!
Most topics here have a Sci-Fi channel connection and after
attempting to read some of the threads here, I would have
thought it would leave any sensible adult or even a youngster
with a fair education reeling!

I often wonder, if a man who has never read any of, what I believe
are lecture-money con-men, any of the thousands of books out
there and then he comes to this site, what would he say?

Possibly "hmmm, hmm... oh well no proof here, where next?"
Just because it's in a book, doesn't make real.

Anyway, back to the tablets.

Schuyler,

Could we get a little background on you? Your idea has merit and quite frankly intrigues me. I find it only sensible we were to know a little more of your qualifications.

Thanks,

Becker

This idea has merits that I endorse. I too see the limitations of MUFON as being of another era and some sort of a fundamental shift to an othodoxy of timely verifiable peer-reviewed documented fact would be most welcome.

It really is an education issue, that left unaddressed, insures future fragmentative and dissociative research without standards of sufficient rigour to move the issue forward.

Cheers Schu'! Please keep us informed.

Vic

Heh Skoda, I think I've grabbed the wrong end of your posting here.

Wasn't 'A Modest Proposal' the movie where that guy who played
Butch Cassidy from The Partridge Family, offered a $150 to spend
a night with 'Cheers' star (and who's dad supposedly 'offed'
Kennedy) Woody Dansen's chick? (played by Roger Moore).

I don't have a television, but I get the TV guide and like the old f*rt
in Lost Boys said, "Read the TV guide, don't need a TV, you wait till
mom finds out"

Originally posted by IronMan
The problem I initially see, is that there's no real proof
of anything that warrents concern of other civilisations
visiting Earth.

Ok. Even if you are 100% correct, the point still stands. People don't know the history and literature of the phenomenon, even if it is entirely fiction. You could even incorporate a module to that effect in the curriculum: "UFOs in fiction" or "UFOs in movies." There is ample material either way.

"A Modest Proposal" was originally an essay by Jonathan Swift written in 1729 regarding the Irish potato famine. He suggested they eat their own children to solve the problem, kill two birds with one stone, so to speak, by gaining nourishment and reducing the number of mouths to feed. I'm sure the title has been used several times since then as well, but this was the original.

I'll let a few more people weigh in before responding to the rest.....

Amazing, all I can say is amazing. One time someone here wrote that if the real deal was here you wouldn't have the sense to even know it.

Bud Hopkins for example makes money from writing books from the abductions and experiences other people have, he never had an experience that I know of. Many or should I say most of the people making the money off of this are just passing on information they gathered. (I don't believe there are many in the Ufology field that have had experiences themselves)

Now, I know I am not a writer and I write some strange things but if you would just read what I have written since I have been here maybe you would really know what the he&& is going on. I have seen one person here who sensed and picked up on it and that is Rhain.

As for the Grey's I have for years told you where they are, I have told you where they implant the tracking device and how to locate it, I have told you about curing Earth and yourselves but nothing, no one cares. Humans are nothing but a study at least to the Grey's whom they consider the Earth to be there's. They aren't going to help you but they will confer to interfere if Earth is about to be destroyed because you will destroy there Laboratory. That's what Earth is to them A LABORATORY. Plain and simple the Grey's consider humans a stupid species they say "we do" have intelligence but we use little of our brain.... we don't know how to use it.

There ships are just called the ships and they are air and water. There a different species here... so they are just as much terrestrial as Extraterrestrial.

I am a human with a Soul of a Grey that the Elder's (your Gods) my (and your) Creator's that asked me to come here and help the human race when it was time.

The time is coming you are down to only decades, if you don't care about yourself for Goodness sake care for your children and your grandchildren. Stop, I mean "STOP THE WARS" and most importantly PLANT TREES now in mass and I mean mass.

The peoples on Earth DO NOT know what all humans being equal means, shame, damn shame it is.

Most of the powers on Earth have got to go and the people have to start anew.

[edit on 3-6-2007 by observe50]

Oh yes Observe_50, I believe you're a human with the soul
of an... no I'm not gonna say it.

So you think that we should plant trees and get rid of the top
layer of leaders in the world? Do you own a garden center?
I'm sorry that was cynical, of course you do.

With all this talk of Elders, what about conifers and Daffodils?
Do they get a chance.
Oh... is it true that if you pick Dandelions, do you p*ss the bed?

Because I've never picked a Dandelion and, well....

So at least we ATSers have access to aliens now nuh?

The premise of your proposal Shuyler, has, in my opinion, a valid basis in both fact and in good intent. Sifting through and filtering the chaff of this topic may prove quite the challenge, however (as any one of a large number of "fringe" posts at ATS would attest).

Unlike some of the more "hardened" disciplines, the esoteric nature of our collective intrigue combined with the simple lack of an observable, repeatable, empirical set of evidence to analyze may lend our efforts toward an exercise of some futility.

Nevertheless, perhaps even because of this, I would fully support such a proposal if for no other reason than to reach a modicum of consensus on just an occasional item of one presented conundrum of interest or another.

Establishing some ability to measure (and agree upon) credentials may prove to be another source of gainsay trepidation.

In any event - I'm certain you'll find many here corroborative of such a proposal, in concept if not full practice - worthwhile endeavor as it may be.

Thus, in the end, I'd venture that your proposal, if carried to fruition, will be ultimately anything but modest.

Good luck - count me in...



[edit on 6/3/2007 by Outrageo]

[removed quote of entire previous post]

Er... I agree and as Kevin Cline said in Fish called Wanda,
"what was the middle bit again?"
oh and "kkk...Ken's comin' to kill me!"
Seroiusly... Classic.


Quoting - Please review this link

[edit on 3-6-2007 by 12m8keall2c]

Originally posted by schuyler
How about setting up a system whereby a group selected the top 25 or so UFO titles of all time, maybe more, constructed tests based on the contents, administered them, and awarded a certificate of completion: ATS UFO Specialist. Thus people reading posts from such a designee would know he or she has met a minimum set of standards on knowledge of the subject.

Interesting idea. In the interest of balance I think this list should at least include a few scholarly skeptical works as required reading as well. If you agree, this would be one of my first suggestions…

The Demon-Haunted World - Science as a Candle in the Dark
by Carl Sagan (RIP)
New York: Random House, 1995

If you’re not familiar with this seminal piece here’s a review you may find helpful…

Review of The Demon-Haunted World - Science as a Candle in the Dark by Carl Sagan

Originally posted by schuylerMake no mistake, this project would require time and effort, the ability to meet deadlines, and the cooperation and even help of ATS staff. It could expand to offer several courses in various aspects. If there is interest as expressed by this thread, let’s take it to the next level.

Unfortunately that sounds a little too much like work (LOL) but let me know if there’s anything I can do to support this effort.

Regards,

AD

Isn't there an assumption being made that the mentioned authors are truely correct in their writings. What if they are incorrect? There is also the possibilty that adhering to closely to certain beliefs may create a bias toward future facts.

I certainly believe there are some cases that seem to point to possible extraterrestrial sources. Maybe the past contacts, if real, will never be repeated and future contacts with be with a completely new set of beings. Some ETs may arrive and after a period of time they move on.

My thought is if contact is that common there should a more proof. It's an aweful large secret to be kept so long.

Schuyler,

I'm with you.
Everybody should start here:
en.wikipedia.org...

It has so much information that it will take months to go through it
After this crash course one should emerge decently educated on the subject. ATS can also start their own ufowiki, in which 'experts' here can contribute and write whatever knowledge comes out of the daily discussions.

So if a 'noob' brings some topic back to stone age, we can simply post a link to relevant material on the ATS ufowiki and keep the matter up on an advanced stage.

The main reason people drag the whole discussion back to the start and are not able to draw any conclusion is that they don't read all posts in all threads of all times on a particular topic (say a sighting). I can't blame them as the large number of posts makes it impossible. A wiki should solve the problem by putting the essence of the topic and conclusions on it in a readable way.

I don't recommend that people start buying books and dvds on the matter to become 'experts', as there are so many charlatans out there who are busy making money out of this whole ufo thing.

[edit on 3/6/2007 by rocksolidbrain]

Originally posted by observe50

As for the Grey's I have for years told you where they are, I have told you where they implant the tracking device and how to locate it, I have told you about curing Earth and yourselves but nothing, no one cares. Humans are nothing but a study at least to the Grey's whom they consider the Earth to be there's. They aren't going to help you but they will confer to interfere if Earth is about to be destroyed because you will destroy there Laboratory. That's what Earth is to them A LABORATORY. Plain and simple the Grey's consider humans a stupid species they say "we do" have intelligence but we use little of our brain.... we don't know how to use it.

Again, any proof ?

There ships are just called the ships and they are air and water. There a different species here... so they are just as much terrestrial as Extraterrestrial.

Once again, any proof ?

I am a human with a Soul of a Grey that the Elder's (your Gods) my (and your) Creator's that asked me to come here and help the human race when it was time.

Are you "Jesus" ? How exactly are you helping "us" ? I don't see you
in popular media. I'd think, you would be more prolific.

PLANT TREES now in mass and I mean mass.

Again, the agenda comes through.

The peoples on Earth DO NOT know what all humans being equal means, shame, damn shame it is.

This, I agree with.

Lex

Schuyler, you are so mean and aggressive! If you had your way people like myself would be banned for having made posts that don't reach to your impossible heights.
Have you ever considered that there are professionals out there that have read how you attack anyone without a degree and decided it was not the type of forum they could enjoy becoming a part of?
Where on earth do you think they get the information that enables them to write books? It from people like myself, ordinary everyday people with extraordinary experiences.
I think that your idea is a wonderful one but I cannot help but feel like its also a oneupmanship tactic for ordinary folk like me. It could be a category unto its self. Other wise the entire forum will have to obey that same command. And then even YOU would not be able to post.
I have connected with a lot of people here that have never felt safe to tell their stories of sightings. Why? It was one of the reason I came here. To meet with others to discuss and possibly come up with some answers.
One thing I have come to the possible conclusion about sightings is that you are looking at the sky with the physics of this planet. You are probably very logical and good at math. I am the opposite. For me we fit together like opposite sides of a coin. Do you see my point can you understand?

Originally posted by antar

I am the opposite. For me we fit together like opposite sides of a coin. Do you see my point can you understand?

Was that a marriage proposal ? /ducks

Sorry,
Lex

Originally posted by antar
Schuyler, you are so mean and aggressive! If you had your way people like myself would be banned for having made posts that don't reach to your impossible heights.

Huh? I don't remember ever meeting you before. I certainly don't recognize your avatar. Does anyone else here think I deserve such an unwarranted attack? What's the deal here?

Post whatever you want, sweetheart, truly. That's what an open forum is. What I'd like to see is a raising of standards by teaching people about the field. How did you get from 'going to school' to 'getting banned?' That doesn't follow.

[edit on 6/3/2007 by schuyler]

What I am saying is that you are so intelligent that it can be very intimidating at times.
It also 'seems' that you have very little patience with anything that does not follow scientifically repeatable evidence to back claims. The UFO field is not that fortunate.
I am not asking you to change your views, I happen to respect your thoughts yet think you could be a bit more understanding of people that have had sightings and do not believe that they are of military origins.
It would be great if we had some professionals here to answer questions and possibly raise a few, it could put Ats on the proverbial map, on that we do agree.
Forgive me if I have assumed incorrectly you proposing an end to the unsubstantiated threads by unqualified individuals that base their information on what information is available.

Originally posted by antar
What I am saying is that you are so intelligent that it can be very intimidating at times.

Take a look at him, he's a shrivelled, old man! How can he be intelligent! As if that face could intimidate!

I think that Schuyler's message is that he's sick of reading deliberately ignorant posts from people who don't know what they are talking about, because they have not bothered to research some basic facts.

He's not advocating that we all obtain a Masters in UFOlogy. He's not wanting to ban people for making claims, reporting sightings or contributing to discussions. He's just trying to have some way to recognise people who, due to their time, effort and study, are a little more knowledgable on certain aspects of UFO research. At least that's my take on it.

I like the idea, Schuyler, but I think that it would be a hell of a lot of work.