Al Qaeda threat over pope speech

I wouldnt say they lack a sense of humour, more a lack in sense of understanding and reasoning.

How can we praise there faith, when daily we see the killing innocents in the name of there god.

How can we address the obvious issue with violence, when it amounts to further violence and hatred?

Finatical Muslims truley believe it is there god, or no god.
Religion spread by the edge of a blade will never be accepted, only forced.

If muslims cannot accept the fact that not everyone follows there god, they dont deserve to be practising there faith.

I will not apologise to a muslim for expressing my valid point of view, I will defend myself should he attack me, and I will kill him if he attempts to kill me.

God did not Will it
God did not command it.
He interpreted it WRONG and acted on it.

A weak man states his actions are done at the request of others.
I will not apologise to a weak man, with a gun just because I do not believe in what he believes.

To me it seems that the musilm extremists are stuck in the middle ages, were yes all of the religeons were at each others throats, but we live in a time now where people should be able to live together.

So what if someone says something bad against your religeon, i used to work at a childens nursery and the arguments almost sound the same..... My dads stronger than your dad, my gods better than your god and if you dont agree with me im gunna chop off your head.

WW3 is on its way because a bunch of extremists think we should all think the same way and live the same way as them, but im sorry to all non extremist muslims but if this kicks off into a major deal then im gonna stick where i am supporting the western free speach and supposed freedom rather than change my religeon to one i dont believe that came about years after christianity was first thought off.

And its such a small flaw in there belief structure that is going to escelate this issue.

Assasinating the pope, purley because they belive he speaks ill off allah will ignite major issues.

I just hope muslims are ready.

I hope, deeply hope that the goodnes in muslim faith can be influenced on these finaticals to stop them from committing this act.

If muslims dont stand together not, to stop this blind hatred, they will all suffer the same fate.

Because the christian world will not lay down while there holy leadaer is murdered in the name of allah.

I am not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but, with all this crap it would be easy for one of "our" guys to off the Pope which would send us all off the bloody edge and rush head long to a holy war. Would we even take the time to figure out what/who/why it happened, or would we simply assume it was the Muslims?

Not to say it wouldn't be - merely that when people are emotional they tend to act without thinking and sometimes that leads to a mind boggling mess.

One can only hope.


Can you imagine the sheer delight the day alqaeda sees that breaking news and shrugs there shoulders

'' Wasnt me, I never intending on doing it. I just wanted to scare him ''

Originally posted by Waiting2awake
Would we even take the time to figure out what/who/why it happened, or would we simply assume it was the Muslims?

Did we take the time to think things out after 9/11 when we went into Iraq? Nope. Would we do it again? Yes probably, I think so. I would say much to the liking of many people and not for any reason other then their religious beliefs. Some of these Muslims are correct in thinking this is a 2nd Crusade. Going by the replies of many it is apparent. Obviously anyone could take advantage of this chink in our armor if they wanted to. At this point people are stoked and looking for action on both sides of the fence. Lets just hope there are enough of us on the rail to keep the fanatics at bay on either side.




Pie

I'm Catholic but I won't fight if the Pope is assassinated and I would wager that most Catholics and by extension, our Christian Brethren would not just take up arms and go ape on Muslims. In fact, the best thing to happen if something this catastrophic were to occur would be for every Christian to simply pray, and hope for peace. This would directly contradict those that decisively throw up the "well Christians killed X Y and Z in the name of God in year A B and C. Certainly EVERY religion has blood on its hands. EVERY people does as well. There is not a single culture that has not some blemish and unfortunately this is usually understated or left out of arguments in order to bolster one position over the other.

When bringing up Christianity in arguments like this, we of course have ample ammunition to throw into the flame fest. In a time when the Church was very powerful, there were KINGS who APPOINTED top Church personnel in order to further their own goals. People can be bought throw money, power, sex, drugs and rock n' roll The point? At the heart of the issue is not whether one is committing a crime, committing an evil, but rather if it is truly acknowledged to be a blessed act from on high. In this case, for this thread, we are not dealing with the awfully sinful acts of Christians in the past, or those extremists who still walk the earth, nor are we necessarily dealing with every single Muslim on the planet. What is at the heart here? At the heart is what in fact drives a person to do some violent act. For all those heinous things the Church must admit to, the source is not Christ, nor His teachings, it is simply the corruption of the person which spread like wildfire to a corruption of a category of people who called themselves Christians. No where does Christ promote violence but rather at every stage he condemns it, begging one to turn the other cheek, superceding the ancient Jewish ways of an "eye for an eye" as outlined in the OT. Yet some truly bad seeds have tarnished a truly wonderful image. Fact. No one is denying this.

However, here now, we are trying to understand the mental state of many Muslims throughout the world. It is claimed this religion is a religion of peace, and there have been debates on whether this can be adequately claimed or not. Regardless, it is FACT that not EVERY Muslim acts violently or wants violence or wants to convert every person to Islam. To make blanket statements is beyond ignorant and borders on lunacy. Yet, we are watching effigies, riots, outburts throughout the Muslim world. One must ask oneself, how many radicals are there? If Islam is a peaceful religion, why are these extreme views permitted to be voiced and acted upon IN PUBLIC. Some have mentioned the KKK, being a Christian sect, or more correctly being a sect of white guys who happen to be Christian. They obviously have a distorted view of Christianity, the Bible and of course Christ (my favourite is any hatred towards Jews and Christ being a Jew ) What happens when the KKK get out of hand? Start burning things in the street? Police are out in hordes, people are arrested, charges are laid, people go to jail. Politians RACE to make statements, as do celebrities and major religious figures. Why are we not receiving the same from the Muslim world? How about in our OWN countries? In my case Canada? For most of you the US? Why aren't Muslims racing to make public statements commending the Pope for speaking his mind, even if they think he is off his rocker? Free speach for everyone right? Or not?

The Pope is a very special religious leader, not just because he is the leader of the largest religion on the planet nor because the history of the past umbrellas all Christians bringing the total number closer to 2 Billion than the 1.2 billion Catholics. The Pope is special because he is also a HEAD OF STATE. Too many here forget this. Many don't care much about his religious status, nor any claimed holiness. What matters is that this guy is head of a state and as such possesses a certain clout that although stems from his place in the world as head of the Catholic Church, is only fully honoured based on he being a King of his country and the prime political leader.

G'day all,

I have witten a post elsewhere in regards to Prophesies to do with attacks on the Vatican and the perilous position the Pope may find himself in. I think that it could do well to contribute to this discussion here so I have decided to cut and paste it below. Enjoy



" attack on vatican

G'day,

In regards to youquery wether there are any predictions on attacks on the vatican, i do remember reading a Nostradamus book a while ago that predicted the death of two popes within short period of time from one another and that after this the head of the catholic church will move.

Hold on, just checked my book " Nostradamus in the 21st century" by Peter Lemesurier
Here are a few quotes:

Verse 55 - A mighty muslim chief shall come to birth
In country fortunate of Araby
He'll take Granada, trouble Spanish earth,
And conquer the Italians from the sea.

I just found this on the following website, something Cardinald Ratzinger (now the pope) said in 1984 in regards to the third secret of Fatima -

"5. In a 1984 interview to the Italian periodical Jesus, Cardinal Ratzinger said that the Secret corresponds to what is announced in Sacred Scripture."

www.deepspace4.com...

Could what is happening now be in some part what Fatimas third secret was? and former cardinal Ratzinger knew about it way back then so he might be a part player in what will occur in the future.

Here's some more from the above site which makes sense in the current world situation and which I beleive is relevant, bout a vision the late John Paul had -

"10. The vision reports the Pope, after he passed through a big city which was half in ruins, together with bishops, priests, nuns, brothers, religious men and women as well as lay people being killed by an group of soldiers using bullets and, surprisingly enough, arrows.

In this vision the Pope is being killed, not by one lone gunman, as was attempted by the Ali Agca in 1981, but by, judging by the arms they used, a group of irregular soldiers, an uncontrollable remnant of the strong army, which has destroyed a large city killing various ranks of the hierarchy of the Church and society. "

sure sounds like a group of terrorists to my (Irregular Soldiers) !

Also, this....

"Nostradamus has written a quatrain from which can be deduced that the main events which are described in the released Massage and those for which is presumed that they should be contained in the third part of Fatima secret, are still in our future."

Try the following link - www.holocaustrevealed.org...

It talks of a dream narrated in 1862 by St. John Bosco that speaks of the last and current Pope.

"he dream in question was narrated May 30 1862 (from Forty Dreams of St. John Bosco).

"Suddenly the Pope falls gravely wounded. Immediately, those who are with him run to help him and they lift him up. A second time the Pope is struck, he falls again and dies. A shout of victory and joy rings out amongst the enemies; from their ships an unspeakable mockery arises.

But hardly is the Pontiff dead than another takes his place. The pilots, having met together, have elected the Pope so promptly that the news of the death of the Pope coincides with the news of the election of the successor. The adversaries begin to lose courage."

"The new Pope, putting the enemy to rout and overcoming every obstacle, guides the ship right up to the two columns and comes to rest between them; he makes it fast with a light chain that hangs from the bow to an anchor of the column on which stands the Host; and with another light chain which hangs from the stern, he fastens it at the opposite end to another anchor hanging from the column on which stands the Immaculate Virgin.

Comment: To apply to Benedict XVI the prophecy must allude to John Paul II being once seriously wounded and then dying from his later Parkinsons Disease etc. Otherwise we are going to see this pope shot and the next, and last, speedily elected also. "

And to conclude, the following quote by Pope Pius X in 1909 says it all and will give you goosebumps as you read. Here it is -

"Pius X (1835-1914) in 1909 during an audience with the general Chapter of the Franciscans fell into a semi-trance with his head sunk on his chest and after a few minutes he came to and opened his eyes with a look of horror on his face. He reputedly cried out:

What I have seen was terrible… Will it be myself? Will it be my successor? What is certain is that the Pope will quit Rome, and in fleeing from the Vatican he will have to walk over the dead bodies of his priests. Do not tell anyone while I am alive (cf. Stephen Skinner, Millennium Prophecies, Carlton, p. 75).

Obviously, Rome and specifically the papacy are seen as the enemy in this invasion of Rome. What events are happening now that might justify or cause these events? The answer is the coming war with Islam and the role of the papacy in precipitating that war. "

If tha doesn't explain through divine intervention what is about to occur with the Vatican, then I do not know what does. This, Fatimas third secret, Nostradamus, Ratzinger knowingsince before 1983 of the third secret and together with the former Pope bringing in changes to the church and what is occuring now with their agenda."

Because of this, his statements carry much weight and the effect is more like an asteroid hitting the ocean rather than a pubble being flung into the sea. I'm still not sure of the context of his statement. I need to reread it. However, him making a remark based on a quote...well, death threats are obviously WAY OVER THE TOP and any yahoo rebuttles uttering warnings of "if you do we do" or the like is fanning the flames. If the Pope gets attacked, Muslims will be looked down upon as an entire group no matter what distinctions can be made between radicals, extremists, ultra orthodox, laxidazical or other. The Pope did apologize for his statement being taken out of context but should he retract the use of the quote? Or should he go against what he was reading to appease a subpopulation of a "religion of peace"? NO. He should not have to, he won't and he should not feel ashamed or responsible for anything said or done.

Reading through the posts, I read about how the Church is evil because of 1 2 or 3. I don't demand apologies. I don't see why a person making a comment that is based on fact, should have to rescind just because someone's feelings were hurt. How often has the Church been insulted? Let's take the past sex scandals for instance. The media is one sided here of course, lambasts the Church as a whole, and yet it is perfectly fine. Yet, we take some cartoons, and the world shutters in fear because of some mockeries but the same is done daily about Christ. The media will always play to the lowest common denominator and it is our goal to see through it and dismiss it. If in fact, the conservative media is painting an erroneous picture of the greater Muslim reaction then the liberal media should step forward. Spokemen from the American, Canadian and British Muslim (for example) communities should be standing up for the right to free speech while, if possible, contradicting the remarks made by the Pope. If he can be proven wrong, do so with WORDS.

Should he have made these remarks at all? Depending on his audience it may have been VERY relavent and because he is an academic, an extraordinarily learned man, head of state, and religious leader, it may well have been his place to make such a statement. He was not however addressing the Muslim world directly. He was not going right into Mecca and flipping them the bird with his remarks.

*paused to do my homework*

So it seems after reading what he said and to whom he was addressing it, the Pope, a German academic himself, was speaking with other German academics. Quoting from the LA Times, I think this summarises it best:

Even some Muslims acknowledge that Islam often has not made the same accommodation to freedom of conscience. The pope may object to the portrait of Catholicism in "The Da Vinci Code," but he has not threatened the life of author Dan Brown. When Salman Rushdie's "The Satanic Verses" was published, the Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini issued a fatwa calling on devout Muslims to kill the Anglo-Indian author. The armchair academic explanation for this disparity is that, however reluctantly, much of Christianity has made peace with the Enlightenment, while much of Islam has not.

That seems to have been the larger point that Benedict was trying to make in Germany, where he began his career as a university professor. The problem is that he isn't a professor now; he's the pope. And although they may be infallible when it comes to faith and morals, popes need to watch their words when they have political consequences.

So, he didn't think about the overall ramifications of his words to these folks, but once word hit the street, it was taken out of context and the media jumped on it as they always do and all hell broke loose. Apologizing for the use of the quote in context? No, no...not at all. Apologizing for making it in the first place? Maybe, since he should realize that as Pope he is a head of state, a political figure as well as a religious one and such things help the boiling pot boil over.

one in every couple hundred thousand (if not million) muslims is a terrorist.

frankly, we can't be arsed to worry about # like that. yes. terrorists suck. i'm sorry anyone has to deal with them at all. now let us get back to our lives. that is if the media lets us, and isn't busy whipping up some image where worldwide protests that result in property damage in Palestine and 1 nun in Somalia dying are suddenly taken to mean that Muslims have gone mad and half the planet is in chaos.

the church never really directly apologized for the crusades or inquisition either. the last pope issued a vague 'general' apology/confession for all of the church's sins but didn't name names.

2,000 years of violence and persecution

The Crusades

Pope Urban II, anxious to assert Rome's authority in the east, sent a military expedition in 1095 to reconquer the holy land. The crusaders ravaged the countries they passed through and massacred the Muslim, Jewish and even Christian population of Jerusalem after capturing it in 1099. After 200 years of conflict Muslim armies drove them out for good, but the crusaders' symbol of the red cross remains provocative.

Death toll: hundreds of thousands at least

The Inquisition

The attempt to combat suspected apostates, Jews and Muslims at the time of the Reformation spawned tribunals in Europe and the new world that tortured and executed thousands. Ecclesiastical queasiness about flowing blood led to the use of racks, thumbscrews and red-hot metal instead of blades; 2,000 people were burned at the stake during the tenure of Spain's first grand inquisitor, Tomas de Torquemada.

Death toll: tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands

The Holocaust

Pope Pius XII never publicly condemned the Nazis' persecution of Jews, even when they were being rounded up and deported from Rome. His silence is partly blamed for the failure of Germany's Catholics to resist Hitler. Anti-Jewish Catholic doctrines such as the claim that the Jews murdered Christ were said to have ideologically underpinned nazism. Vatican officials allegedly helped Nazis escape Europe after the war.

Death toll: millions

20th-21st Century Islamic Terrorists

Death toll: ? Less than 10,000 (in the most populous world of all these events)

[edit on 19-9-2006 by rdb1000]

Originally posted by NetworkNinja
So it seems after reading what he said and to whom he was addressing it, the Pope, a German academic himself, was speaking with other German academics. Quoting from the LA Times, I think this summarises it best:

Even some Muslims acknowledge that Islam often has not made the same accommodation to freedom of conscience. The pope may object to the portrait of Catholicism in "The Da Vinci Code," but he has not threatened the life of author Dan Brown. When Salman Rushdie's "The Satanic Verses" was published, the Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini issued a fatwa calling on devout Muslims to kill the Anglo-Indian author. The armchair academic explanation for this disparity is that, however reluctantly, much of Christianity has made peace with the Enlightenment, while much of Islam has not.

That seems to have been the larger point that Benedict was trying to make in Germany, where he began his career as a university professor. The problem is that he isn't a professor now; he's the pope. And although they may be infallible when it comes to faith and morals, popes need to watch their words when they have political consequences.

So, he didn't think about the overall ramifications of his words to these folks, but once word hit the street, it was taken out of context and the media jumped on it as they always do and all hell broke loose. Apologizing for the use of the quote in context? No, no...not at all. Apologizing for making it in the first place? Maybe, since he should realize that as Pope he is a head of state, a political figure as well as a religious one and such things help the boiling pot boil over.

now that quote is getting somewhere.

islam came out of the gates in enlightenment. the islamic concept of ijtihad helped lay the foundation for the preservation of Greek knowledge that the Europeans were busy trying to forget. ijtihad is directly linked to the formation of the scientific method. without islam showing up when it did, there'd be no european enlightenment. most historians will agree.

this school of philosophy was soon overshadowed after a few hundred years in Islam. applying scientific method to religion was resulting in some dubious claims and spin-off sects. the Mutazili school of thought were the major Aristotelian and Neoplatonist Muslim philosophers. then the Ashari and Maturidi schools showed up and philosophers like Al-Ghazali used Greek logic to defeat their trust in reason... using reason itself. They 'turned off' Ijtihad. Philosophy and this 'logic/reason' approach was banned from law/religion but allowed for science/technology. It worked initially and the Ottoman Empire/Caliphate experienced a 100-200 year peak. but then Islamic civilization fell behind and lost the initiative to the Westerners fresh off their crash course in Enlightenment from their exposure to Muslims during the Crusades.

what essentially happene was, Al-Ghazali was like a Muslim version of Kant (and his critique of reason). but Islam, unlike Christianity, has built-in self-defense mechanisms. it will never 'go away' or disappear like Christianity did (or transform as the case may be since one can argue Evangelicals are the new face of Christianity).

the problem with Muslims now is based in that same idea of Ijtihad, politics, law, philosophy. they have no central authority for Sunnis (whereas the Shi'a have Iran, and for the most part the Shi'a ignored all these guys I just mentioned). they need to realize Ashari and Al-Ghazali and Maturidi (the Taliban follow the Deobandi movement in Sunni Islam which follows Maturidi and to this day teaches all of its students techniques in defeating Greek logic so as to keep philosophy out of religion), all of these guys WERE philosophers behaving in the spirit of inquiry that Muslims pioneered after the Greeks. they should not have shut down Ijtihad after Al-Ghazali. they should have kept philosophizing/critiqin

Has anyone else noticed that the one thing missing from this whole thread is a Muslim member of ATS saying that even though what the Pope said was offensive, the physical reaction of some around the globe is over the top, and should be reigned in. I've seen such members jump in to "correct" non-Muslim perceptions on the boards, and how the we are misinterperiting the Koran. I've seen Christians and Jews criticise thier own religions and leaders.

Where are the Muslim members of ATS that think that the Pope has the same right to free speech as they do? Seems a bit reflective of the Muslim world that we are supposed to believe doesn't really exist.

If they trie anything on the Popes life, expect Catholic terroist groups to get involved in a backlash.

Then this will get interesting if groups suchs as the IRA get invovled.

If the popes life is taken. You will see bloodshed but it wont be catholic bloodshed.

Rome has problems in Ratzinger's intentional/unintentional words crossing Muslim's extremists lines.
Italy has little to no defence structure set up against a jihad, if one were declared against them. It's simpler or perhap's true The Pope announces no ill intent was meant and his personal belief did not follow what he had read.

Dallas

Christianity (like Islam) has certain basic tenets that are fundamental to it. Jesus went up against the established church to get things back on track after the church got itself way off-course. Moses did the same thing earlier in history. One of the principal teachings of Jesus was tolerance and love. Turn the other cheek and all that. Anyone who foments hate or resorts to violence to avenge an attack on 'The Church' simply doesn't 'get it'. They're not acting according to Jesus' teachings and therefore cannot reasonably call themselves Christian --- no matter what church they wrap themselves in.

I find the whole thing funny really. The pope says something about muslims spreading violence and they are saying "hey you are lying we are a peaceful people" and what do they do to prove they are peaceful light a few buildings on fire, burn the jewish and american flag screaming death to america and death to isreal and then they shoot a nun in the back.

They sure convinced me.

Originally posted by ARNOMANNN
All I got to say about all this is BRING IT ON!!!! This one Catholic who is ready to fight for his religious convictions!! This is a religious war,and a clash of civilasations..Muslims are going out of their way to pick a fight with our society as a whole.

How very Christlike of you.............

Based on your statement above, I believe you know very little of what it means to truly be a Christian. This is not a holy war unless you make it one. Again, Muslims are being blamed as a whole for the actions of a few maniacs. You are buying into the propaganda very well, hook line & sinker. Perhaps the pope should change his remarks to reflect upon the viewpoints of some of his followers.

The Pope's remarks were for religion in general, something that the Muslim protestors can't get their dense heads around. Not that the mullahs would distort the context at all.

And actually it is Christ-like. There is much argument to lend credence to the belief that Jesus was no pacifist.