catholicism the Wrong religion to be in??

Originally posted by Allred5923
Aren't you the saint?

No, I am no saint, the farthest thing from it actually. I don't claim to be good, or righteous, or wise either. I just don't think it would be fair for me, personally, to tell others that their religion is wrong.

Historically, many groups have made horrible mistakes. I live now, in the present. If I start holding every group's past against its present members I would drive myself mad with hatred and loathing. Keep in mind that I am not telling you how you should feel. I celebrate the fact that you have the right to hold any belief you choose. I just can't feel the same way.

Originally posted by mindtrip02
does any one else think that its odd, that the one religion that is supposed to be the " right religion" and the " one true religion" is the most dominating and hypocritical religion there is???here are just some of the things i came up on my own, maybe you guys could help me out with some other ones i havent thought of yet...

Just speaking from my personal perspective (which is non-religious in all forms yet a dedicated serious student of the bible alone), and not as a critic berating Catholicism in particular--IOW--my input here is meant to be objective and without opinion--I've studied the bible extensively, and then some, and also have studied much about the catholic religion including a thorough examination of papal decrees and what not as well as the catechism...I've also been married into a family of devout catholics, although my ex-husband was the exception, so I didn't get embroiled in a battle of religions...my former in-laws are wonderful people, too--good hearted and generous, non judgmental and loving on every level.

BUT, from what I can tell, just about everything the bible says not to do, is considered the only way to do things in the catholic religion. Check out the US Bishops Website for the official catechism of the Catholic church--it might tend to be tedious, but if you're really interested, you will find a lot of information--there is much more emphasis on traditions instead of biblical authority--and much of that tradition totally contradicts the bible's instructions and teachings. And of all the practicing catholics I've known around my town, they are very loving and sweet people, without exception. It is not the people, or even the clergy, that I would criticize, but rather the institution, itself--something established centuries and centuries ago--traditions are very deep in the religion, and even if misled, the faith of the people is in God, ultimately--and that's what really counts, in the long run. No matter what faith a person is, if they trust God and seek to emulate His son as far as gentleness and charity, then I don't think they are any worse off than anyone else--and probably better, for that matter.

One thing I do like about it, though, aside from the loving nature of the faithful, is that they aren't adverse to the idea of 'mystery' although their mysteries aren't the same as the esoteric concepts I've discovered within the bible and within myself as guided by the Holy Spirit...but at least they aren't so pragmatic as to limit things to the mundane in regard to God.

I know, from growing up in a community that is largely either charismatic or catholic (with a good dose of old fashioned baptist thrown in), that around here, there seem to be two kinds of catholics as far as practicing their religion: totally devout and dedicated, or totally non-practicing (being only catholic by virtue of the family's heritage and being baptized as an infant into the catholic faith).

in no way am i trying to go against the PEOPLE in catholicism. its the religion itself, the way the people are taught to be. the PEOPLE could be great, i just think that for a religion to do everything that it says not to do,... seems a little bit wierd... like its a devil religion dating back thousands of years and somehow the people in that religion havent figured it out yet..

im out
-mindtrip02

Originally posted by mindtrip02
3. another commandment... " thou shalt not worship and graven idols"
now it seems to me that all those statues in the catholic churches seem to be " idols" they bow to them, they pray to them, they even adorn them with wreathes.
4. in the bible is also says to not care of for earthly possesions. when you see the pope and the men in the papacy, what are they wearing? jewelry everywhere, gold adornments on their gowns and gold crowns... now isnt that the reason that jesus tore down the temple in the first place, he said , ( not exact) , this is not what the church is about. the flaunt money and place in society, it is about worshiping god, the father.

I'd be willing to say that it is not just the Catholic religion that do these things. Every church I've ever been to, regardless of the religion, has some sort of statue, painting, or both. In one Christian church I've been to there was a cross with Jesus on it, another had a very large painting of him, another had just a huge cross. So I don't think that Catholic churches have a monopoly on the graven image, they just have more of them I think.

As for the earthly possessions, every preacher/priest/whatever the title is I have ever seen drives a brand new car, has jewelry everywhere, brand-new clothes, etc. etc. It's human nature to want nice things, and expensive things. I'd be willing to say that 99% of people, whether they admit it or not, want to be the one wearing million dollar jewelry, thousand dollar outfits, and driving cars that cost more than I'll ever make in my life. They just don't have access to the funds to do that.

Originally posted by Jenna

Originally posted by mindtrip02
3. another commandment... " thou shalt not worship and graven idols"
now it seems to me that all those statues in the catholic churches seem to be " idols" they bow to them, they pray to them, they even adorn them with wreathes.
4. in the bible is also says to not care of for earthly possesions. when you see the pope and the men in the papacy, what are they wearing? jewelry everywhere, gold adornments on their gowns and gold crowns... now isnt that the reason that jesus tore down the temple in the first place, he said , ( not exact) , this is not what the church is about. the flaunt money and place in society, it is about worshiping god, the father.

I'd be willing to say that it is not just the Catholic religion that do these things. Every church I've ever been to, regardless of the religion, has some sort of statue, painting, or both. In one Christian church I've been to there was a cross with Jesus on it, another had a very large painting of him, another had just a huge cross. So I don't think that Catholic churches have a monopoly on the graven image, they just have more of them I think.

As for the earthly possessions, every preacher/priest/whatever the title is I have ever seen drives a brand new car, has jewelry everywhere, brand-new clothes, etc. etc. It's human nature to want nice things, and expensive things. I'd be willing to say that 99% of people, whether they admit it or not, want to be the one wearing million dollar jewelry, thousand dollar outfits, and driving cars that cost more than I'll ever make in my life. They just don't have access to the funds to do that.

ok, i understand that people want nice things out of life, but preists and the pope, have taken vows of poverty. i grew up in church ( penecostal) all my life, i know that the reverends liked to have nice things as well. but they dont take vows of poverty like the papacy of the catholic church does. and as for the pictures of jesus and ect. i can see that, as in rememberence of him ( even though that is what sacrament is for ) but the only religion i know of that kneels down to the images in such a way that there is hardly a difference between admiring them and worshiping it, is the catholics. i am not judging, just nearly pointing out a fact.

I was unaware that the pope, the bishops, the cardinals, etc. actually took vows of poverty. So, I did some research.

Catholic Q and A
Question: What type of vows and oaths do priests have to take in order to become a priest? Thanks

Answer:
Some priests are members of religious orders prior to being ordained priests. In those cases, the priests usually take vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience, and sometime something additional, such as loyalty to the Pope.

Most priests are not members of religious orders, and are usually called "diocesan" priests because of their association with a particular bishop. These priests do not take vows, but, in the western Church, they are currently asked to make promises of celibacy and obedience to their bishop. They also promise to pray for the people they serve.

So, you are correct that some take these vows, but not all of them do.

Yes, there's a difference between admiring them and worshipping the images, I was just pointing out that most churches have images and statues of saints, Jesus, the cross, etc. No, arguement from me!

Originally posted by mindtrip02
does any one else think that its odd, that the one religion that is supposed to be the " right religion" and the " one true religion" is the most dominating and hypocritical religion there is???here are just some of the things i came up on my own, maybe you guys could help me out with some other ones i havent thought of yet...

Wow, does anyone else here think that mindtrip is prejudiced and ignorant? I know that sounds harsh but is just statement.

1.it says directly in the bible, do not chant ... what do the catholics do walking down there halls in their churches. THEY CHANT. and repeatedly do it...

First off, where does it say that in the bible? Anywhere near the sections in Psalms where it says to raise up your praises to God in song? Secondly, I walk down halls at my church from time to time and am pretty sure that I have never chanted while doing so. Perhaps you are referring priests doing that? In that case, let me think... nope, still can't recall a time when they did that. We do have what is called plainchant which is prayers set to a song, but that doesn't happen walking up and down the aisle. and I will refer you again to Psalms, among other places that encourage you to offer your prayers to go in song.

2.now this one is a commandment... " thou shalt not worship any gods before me"and what do they do.. they call the pope " the father" and bow down to him as if he was god.

We don't worship the Pope. We show him respect - respect which is accorded to him in his position as head of the Church on Earth. The same respect, in fact, that I would show to a president or prime minister or whatever other leader. Heck, that I would show to boy scout troupe leader.

3. another commandment... " thou shalt not worship and graven idols"
now it seems to me that all those statues in the catholic churches seem to be " idols" they bow to them, they pray to them, they even adorn them with wreathes.

Again, your ignorace and smallmindedness is showing. We don't worship those statues, most (but not all) of which are of saints. Just in case you are honestly curious and not just baiting us catholics, I will explain a bit. The images of saints and even of Jesus serve to remind us of a couple of things. One is our history as Catholics. More importantly are the primary characteristics associated with a given saint. St. Francis, for instance, was reknowned for his love of all living things. The statues we see of him serves to remind us that we are all interrelated on this world and that we are all precious in the eyes of God. Does that mean I worship him? No, not at all. I seek to emulate his goodwill. Occasionally Catholics will pray for the intercession of a saint. Basically what you are doing there is asking for the saint to speak on your behalf to God. Basically spiritual networking, if you will.

4. in the bible is also says to not care of for earthly possesions. when you see the pope and the men in the papacy, what are they wearing? jewelry everywhere, gold adornments on their gowns and gold crowns... now isnt that the reason that jesus tore down the temple in the first place, he said , ( not exact) , this is not what the church is about. the flaunt money and place in society, it is about worshiping god, the father. to worship god it can be in your own home.. because religion and spirit of such things as god is in your heart...

Most of the gold and gems you see are holdovers from the past when there wasn't really a banking system. Money was easier to transport in the form of gems and gold. Additionally, money is necessary in this world. If the church didn't have money, they wouldn't be able to pay the upkeep on the locations of the churches. They wouldn't be able to feed the priests and allow for healthcare of ailing priests and a retirement for older ones. Also remember that the church is made up of people. Some are less noble than others and there will always be people who enter into any organization in pursuit of earthly weath and power. It is part and parcel of experience in this world.

those are the only ones that i could think of right now. help me out if you could

im out
-mindtrip02

Hope that helps you to shed some of your ignorance and prejudice.

[edit on 14-7-2006 by mindtrip02]

Originally posted by Marid Audran
does anyone else here think that mindtrip is prejudiced and ignorant?

Yes. Completely. Yet another 'I don't know what I'm talking about but I hate
what I think the Catholic Faith is' post.

Since he said at the end of his anti-catholic rant 'help me out'; I will.
The one thing you should know is .. you got it ALL wrong. ALL of it. If you
really want to know what the Catholic faith believes and why then start at
this site and read the entire library and go get a Catechism and read.

www.catholic.com...

Oh .. and you might as well give up the Jack Chick tracts. They are wrong
and trash as well. There .. I helped you out. Now go learn ...

BTW .. Mindtrip2 just registered a few days ago ... I gotta wonder if he's a
reincarnation of some previously banned anti-Catholic fanatic. Mindtrip ...
been hanging out at tribfarces.com?? Just wondering.

[edit on 7/17/2006 by FlyersFan]

I agree with queen, a lot of the 1 billion+ members of the catholic church are members by birth, and are catholics by name only, at least thats from experience.

Since i meet many catholics where i live, and have many friends that are catholic, it seems the only things that are important is goign to mass on sunday and having the conservative mentality, that is being against abortion and gay marriage etc.

I'll say this, the catholic church is smart, baptizing them and making them members of the church when they are babies, that way they have no choice to be members and if one wants not to be a catholic, thier family or friends growing up in the catholic church will look down on them and worst case, get disowned by the family. Which is a good incentive to stay in the church.

I mean, i don't have to tell you that biblically... you're supposed to be baptized when one accepts Jesus as your saviour, but according to the RCC, tradition > bible.

Unfortunately, anyone who talks negative about the catholic church are obviously anti-catholic bigots. Martin Luther was an anticatholic bigot because he talked negatively about the church. Jesus was a Jewish bigot because he talked negatively about Israel's religious leaders, etc etc.

Thus, when the endtimes does come, those who consider evil good will think they do God a service in persecuting true christians. And the true christians will be the ones claiming that apostasy has entered thier churches. (Paul's conversion and missionary journeys being an example)

Originally posted by Shortness
I'll say this, the catholic church is smart, baptizing them and making them members of the church when they are babies, that way they have no choice to be members and if one wants not to be a catholic, thier family or friends growing up in the catholic church will look down on them and worst case, get disowned by the family. Which is a good incentive to stay in the church.

You are close on a little bit of this, most catholics are baptised at or near birth. However, we also have something called "confirmation" which is when you are older. Confirmation is not automatic, you attend classes and learn about the history of the church and our faith and then make a choice to become confirmed in the Catholic church.

I can also tell you as a catholic that I don't look down on my non-catholic friends and family. They make their own choices - if I forced my religion upon them it wouldn't take. I try to live my life in such a way that it is an example of what I believe as a Christian and a Catholic. I hope by the example that I set that I will present my faith as a large part of the reason that I am the kind of person I am.

Originally posted by Marid Audran

Originally posted by Shortness
I'll say this, the catholic church is smart, baptizing them and making them members of the church when they are babies, that way they have no choice to be members and if one wants not to be a catholic, thier family or friends growing up in the catholic church will look down on them and worst case, get disowned by the family. Which is a good incentive to stay in the church.

You are close on a little bit of this, most catholics are baptised at or near birth. However, we also have something called "confirmation" which is when you are older. Confirmation is not automatic, you attend classes and learn about the history of the church and our faith and then make a choice to become confirmed in the Catholic church.

I can also tell you as a catholic that I don't look down on my non-catholic friends and family. They make their own choices - if I forced my religion upon them it wouldn't take. I try to live my life in such a way that it is an example of what I believe as a Christian and a Catholic. I hope by the example that I set that I will present my faith as a large part of the reason that I am the kind of person I am.

my apologies if i generalized that all catholics disown non-catholics, i just used that as a reference from friends i know that has happened to them.

I'll just conclude with this idea, the leaders of Israel had it all wrong, were corrupt, and hated the truth. Would it be so farfetched to say that prior to Jesus 2nd return, God's churches will be the same way?

[edit on 17-7-2006 by Shortness]

[edit on 17-7-2006 by Shortness]

i will say again.. i am not judging, just referring to what i have seen. and i think it makes no difference when i joined ATS.... i have been raised in church my entire life.. and i do know the bible very well, and i am educated in the differences in religion.
chanting can be many things.. not just prayer thru song, that is not what i am referring to..im speaking of the prayer that the catholics say repeatedly.. kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven...
yes it does say to say that prayer only, because jesus and god already know what we need..
but it does not say to repeat it and repeat it.
it also says ( along these lines, dont know exact scripture, but im sure one of you do) not to show pics and have statues of that nature. because then it makes the statue seem more important.
this is a honest question, ( because i dont know why this would be) but seriously, why would you need a saint to relay messages to jesus for you? wouldnt you just pray directly to jesus?
and i am not hating anyone in the catholic religion. i am not ingorant or closeminded at all. i just think that its very black and white.. no middle. i also dont understand why catholics would say that any child who is not baptized and god forbid that child die..that they would be stuck in limbo... children are innocent.
not trying to offend anyone... maybe i should have headed this different??
p.s. im not a he
im out
-mindtrip02

[edit on 17-7-2006 by mindtrip02]

catochism is what it is a religion based on perverse mens Tradition, and not Jesus Christ. this is what I believe God's word has to say about such a religion:

1But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.


Brutal, true, and unapologetic!

Originally posted by mindtrip02
i also dont understand why catholics would say that any child who is not baptized and god forbid that child die..that they would be stuck in limbo... children are innocent.
not trying to offend anyone... maybe i should have headed this different??
p.s. im not a he
im out
-mindtrip02

[edit on 17-7-2006 by mindtrip02]

Okay cool, sorry about the he thing. Next up, that bit isn't believed. In fact, the idea of limbo is no longer an official stance of the church. Pope Benedict and Pope John Paul before him have been working hard to move the church forward. It is difficult because the church as an organization looks in terms of decades and centuries with their policies. As a result change is generally slow. The current pope (Benedict) has, in fact, made headway into researching the use of condoms as means of protecting people from disease - pope considers condom message.
Also, the idea of purgatory was, I believe, from Martin Luther and a number of those items either have been, or are in the process, of being "unmade". I don't have links, but will look for them for you.

The thing to remember about the the catholic church is that things change slowly. We are not a faith given to fads.

Originally posted by Marid Audran

Originally posted by mindtrip02
i also dont understand why catholics would say that any child who is not baptized and god forbid that child die..that they would be stuck in limbo... children are innocent.
not trying to offend anyone... maybe i should have headed this different??
p.s. im not a he
im out
-mindtrip02

[edit on 17-7-2006 by mindtrip02]

Okay cool, sorry about the he thing. Next up, that bit isn't believed. In fact, the idea of limbo is no longer an official stance of the church. Pope Benedict and Pope John Paul before him have been working hard to move the church forward. It is difficult because the church as an organization looks in terms of decades and centuries with their policies. As a result change is generally slow. The current pope (Benedict) has, in fact, made headway into researching the use of condoms as means of protecting people from disease - pope considers condom message.
Also, the idea of purgatory was, I believe, from Martin Luther and a number of those items either have been, or are in the process, of being "unmade". I don't have links, but will look for them for you.

The thing to remember about the the catholic church is that things change slowly. We are not a faith given to fads.

Purgatory was and still is a fundamental doctrine of the Catholic Church. It did not come from Martin Luther, and in further study of the bible he rejected the doctrine of purgatory.

Limbo is NOT a teaching of the Catholic Church. Purgatory didn't come
from Martin Luther. It is a teaching of the church based on scripture.

All that has been discussed in BTS (where this thread belongs). Purgatory
references in scripture - Heb 12:14, Rev 21:27, Mt 5:26, Luke 12:58-59,
Luke 12:47-48, 2 Mac 12:45, 1 Cor 3:15

The reason Martin Luther rejected the truth of Purgatory was because he didn't
want to end up there. It's just that simple. The guy lead a very perverse life.

Martin Luther Quote - "If the wife is unwilling, then take the maid." So much for
marriage and fidelity. Rape the maid if you can't keep your pants zipped. Yes,
how completely holy of him.

And of course there is the fact that Hitler based a lot of his Jewish-Hate on what
he read from Martin Luther's anti-Jewish writings. More proof of his 'holiness'.
"On the Jews and their Lies" Interesting title eh? Some of Luther's suggestions for
dealing with the jews - the German nobility should drive out the Jews. First they
should “burn their synagogues and raze them to the ground. Then "destroy their
houses”. Next - “completely abolish their right to travel on the roads” and “force
the strong young Jewish men and women to work with flail, axe, spade, distaff
and spindle”.


AGAIN ... ya'll who hate what the Catholic church teaches haven't read the
Catechism nor the online site that I provided. You really should read up and
get the facts before you blast the church for things it's not guilty of.

[edit on 7/18/2006 by FlyersFan]