about E85

why arn't most americans using E85 in their cars yet? isnt it clean and cheap and doesn't comes from right here in america.

I think you need to, besides have place that is selling it, have a car that can accept it no?

Also, E85, its more expensive than regular fuel, and it requires government subsidies in order to keep the price at the pump reasonable.

So most americans aren't using it because their cars can't accept it, the stations aren't selling it, and its more expensive and less efficient than gasoline.

Originally posted by Nygdan
I think you need to, besides have place that is selling it, have a car that can accept it no?

True! there are like 5 models out there now that take it, and only a handful of gas stations that sell it... Not so good...

Also, E85, its more expensive than regular fuel, and it requires government subsidies in order to keep the price at the pump reasonable.

True, and producing efficeintly from sugar cane is impossible because of the lobby-pushed import tariffs on sugar cane (corn industry wants protection for their syrup). So, the agricultural industry has both subsidies and protection, and we don't have fuel. Cool.


[edit on 26-6-2006 by Aelita]

Most OBDII cars can run a small percentage of E85 (NA cars can run up to about 50-60% and turbo charged cars can run about 30% this is on average though). Most manufacturers only allow 10% in order to keep your warranty.

E85 contains about 80% of the stored energy of gasoline, however with higher octane ratings the motor can be more effecient. So you will still lose about 15-25% of you projected MPG. Turbocharged car have been known to operate in the 90+% of their original numbers. This is in part due to the "variable compression" turbochargers offer.

Price seems to vary from place to place.. some place its 2 dollars a gallon right now, while others are charging more than premium for it.

Cars taht can run E85 can detect the percentage in the tank and adjust the fueling and timing appropriatly. If you wanted to add a small percentage of Ethanol to your car you should be fine (as long as its OBDII) cause the O2 sensor looks for a stoich mixture. This changes with different combustant and mixtures (petrol = 14.7:1, ethanol 9:1). Going larger percentages will require about 40% more fueling above what is already programmed on teh ecu. You will also be able to add timing as the higher octane allows plus it runs cooler. The temperature has caused concerns for proper catalytic converter light off. Most imortantlly though you will need a way to switch to this type of fuel and ignition map in case E85 is not available when traveling etc.

Most important thing to remember is its not MPG you are lookig at, but price per mile.

Also it is illegal to modify your car to run ethanol at the moment as per the EPA.

Here are a few sites to look though:
www.e85fuel.com...
en.wikipedia.org...
www.ksgrains.com...
xcelplus.com...

Originally posted by Aelita
So, the agricultural industry has both subsidies and protection, and we don't have fuel. Cool.

I think even in brazil, where there is a government interest in making this sort of stuff, that E85 is still more expensive, pre-subsidy, than gasoline, no? IOW, there is an additional cost in the US because of nationalist protectionist tarrifs, but, even beyond that, its still, I think, not price effective?

Originally posted by Nygdan
I think even in brazil, where there is a government interest in making this sort of stuff, that E85 is still more expensive, pre-subsidy, than gasoline, no?

Please correct me if I'm wrong but (a) I don't think cane is subsidized in Brazil (b) Brazilian cars run on ethanol and not E85.

IOW, there is an additional cost in the US because of nationalist protectionist tarrifs, but, even beyond that, its still, I think, not price effective?

Corn is not price and energy effective (more energy goes in the process than is gained by burning the ethanol). This may change if volumes are higher (maybe).

According to what I read this morning - i.e. if we are allowed to import cane w/o the tariffs, then then it becomes energy and cost effective (on CNN today).

There are a few upcoming technologies that will take 5 years to mature, like ethanol from cellulose etc, which may finally result in future shift to this fuel.

1. No one has heard of it.
2. Supply is limited.
3. Demand is limited.
4. Gas is cheap.

Originally posted by enaught
1. No one has heard of it.
are you kidding me
2. Supply is limited.
thats becuase theres no demand for it
3. Demand is limited.
thats becuase the goverment doesnt give a rats ass about it

jk
4. Gas is cheap.
what timeline are you living in???

[edit on 27-6-2006 by dabomb]

"1. No one has heard of it.
are you kidding me
2. Supply is limited.
thats becuase theres no demand for it
3. Demand is limited.
thats becuase the goverment doesnt give a rats ass about it jk
4. Gas is cheap.
what timeline are you living in???"

1: Though this is not true I will agree a lot of people out there do not realize how awesome a reusable fuel source can be.

2: Supply is still very limited and with demand rising I am sure more and more struggling farmers will not only switch over to using but producing as well. Many states are using E-85 already thanks to GM.

3: Demand will be limited I beleive we are seeing a revolution in fuels. Some people will use E-85 where as others will prefer hydrogen or bio-diesel. What makes bio-diesel appealing though is the fact that anyone who has a regular diesel vehicle can use it and would be another boost for the agriculture sector along with E-85. Hydrogen powered vehicles will be the most expensive to buy but probably the cheapest to fuel. E-85 will rival gas in price now if not a little more expensive for the first while.

4: If you live in North America gasoline is cheap. It is still one of the cheapest liquids. Here in Canada we have higher minimum wage etc. we do not feel it as bad as Americans who are beginning to fall behind economically. Gas is still cheaper then milk and in some cases water. Because in the US you have to pay for everything like healthcare for example as opposed to having universal public systems as we do on average I would Americans need a minimum wage boost from 5.15 an hour to about 8.50 to 9.20 an hour.

====================

It is in my opinion that we need to switch to clean burning cheap alternatives. Not so much because we are heading towards a global enviromental catastrophy. Rather to avoid a fuel crisis. What would America do if it's largest supplier cut them off? It would most certainly cause another global depression which at this point is still avoidable, but give it a year or two of this downward spiral however and it will most certainly be unavoidable. A potential fuel crisis looming in the near future can be avoided but since big oil has governments all over in their pockets well.....

The 'new' fuel industry needs to be regulated by the public sector not corperate or big government. What needs to happen is that communities need to establish local organizations run by locals to regulate fuel and profits and make sure those prfits get pumped back into the public sector. Say a state or province did this I guess the first step would be to make sure no decisions are made without public approval. Financial transactions and records should also be public as well and these organizations should be more or less non-profit. Safety nets need to be put into place to avoid corruption, fraud etc.

If there ae not public safety measures put into place be rest assured the same thing that happened with the oil industry. That of course being monopolization, GM will be one of the first to attempt to monopolize this emerging industry.

Originally posted by Nygdan
Also, E85, its more expensive than regular fuel, and it requires government subsidies in order to keep the price at the pump reasonable.

Gasoline is heavily subsidized. I remember a quote that I read recently(give me sometime to look it up)that stated if the government removed all subsidies from gasoline it would cost the consumer $15 a gallon to purchase.

Ethanol could be produced much more efficiently from hemp.

The wonder of hemp

And we're developing newer tech all the time.

Incredible Bacteria

When was the last time any of you drove to a gas station that had an 87, 89, 93 and an E85 pump? or had E85's price listed on the side of the street? I have never seen one and I use at least 3 different stations depending on where I run low.

I think you are mistaken. Maybe here in this forum it is well known but what sells is advertising.

Originally posted by The_Doctor
Gas is still cheaper then milk and in some cases water.

(Stictly refering to the US throughout the post and not Canada) That may make the oil execs sleep better at night, but I only buy one gallon of milek per week as opposed to the 10 gallons of gas per week I purchase. And I can go without milk, but not gasoline.

It is in my opinion that we need to switch to clean burning cheap alternatives.

The Houston Astros need to win the World Series this year, but for now they are stinking it up, and there is no clean burning cheap alternative: though it is the obvious candidate.

What would America do if it's largest supplier cut them off?

It is hard to say, but in all likelyhood the answer would be to buy more oil from someone else. And none of the major suppliers for the US have come close to cutting off the US.

The 'new' fuel industry needs to be regulated by the public sector not corperate or big government.

The public cannot do the research that major companies and governments attend to. 10% is usually good for government work, but I worry what would happen if the entire energy sector were placed in its hands: a 90% increase in price?

What needs to happen is that communities need to establish local organizations run by locals to regulate fuel and profits and make sure those prfits get pumped back into the public sector.
Say a state or province did this I guess the first step would be to make sure no decisions are made without public approval. Financial transactions and records should also be public as well and these organizations should be more or less non-profit. Safety nets need to be put into place to avoid corruption, fraud etc.

The only way I can sum up the the 1,000 word response worth of beans I shelled out for this but deleted is: good intentions pave the road to hell. Governments are always subject to human error, greed and corruption. Slapping a government or public label on the energy sector is not going to solve anything; if history has taught us anything, it has taught us that these situations turn out poor. Never give yourself a false sense of security.

"(Stictly refering to the US throughout the post and not Canada) That may make the oil execs sleep better at night, but I only buy one gallon of milek per week as opposed to the 10 gallons of gas per week I purchase. And I can go without milk, but not gasoline."

I refer to the Us because it is more heavily dependant where as Canada has been slowly adding ethanol to it's gas, hydrogen fuel cells in it's public transit for years. Needless to say we have been doing more then the Americans have been. I push the US because they are our largest trade partner.

(people will sacrifice their health for convenience it's a damn shame)

You do not need gasoline I get along fine without driving so much as a bicycle. There are many alternatives like walking, biking, car pooling, switching to bio-diesel which is remarkably easy is a great alternative to gas I know several people who raid McDonalds grease traps for the left over cooking oil. Not to mention it is infact cheeper then Gas.

"The Houston Astros need to win the World Series this year, but for now they are stinking it up, and there is no clean burning cheap alternative: though it is the obvious candidate."

Go with bio-diesel, ethanol or hydrogen. Infact the only by product of hydrogen is water and though it is expensive to buy a vehicle for the time being I predict it will get cheaper in a couple of years. All of the above are quite efficient and cleaner burning.

"It is hard to say, but in all likelyhood the answer would be to buy more oil from someone else. And none of the major suppliers for the US have come close to cutting off the US."

Don't think for a second the Saudis for example would not cut America off. Remember it hasn't been that long since they let the Christians into their kingdom. In the event of something ever happenng including an accident or so much as a threat well they will cut you off. Then after that the economy will crash causing a new and bigger war that will make WW2 look like a picnic. These shall be called the 'petroleum wars' a war fought by all the largest most productive nations in the world.
In this war it will come down to whoever is willing to get the most blood on their hands to win, whoever wants it the most.

"The public cannot do the research that major companies and governments attend to. 10% is usually good for government work, but I worry what would happen if the entire energy sector were placed in its hands: a 90% increase in price?"

As I said unlike huge government organizations this would be broken up per county,state, population etc. No decisions could be made before putting to the public first to make the decision. It comes down to the public simply needs to be educated on this issue. Again though safety nets would have to be put into place for instance you can avoid fraud by making all finances viewable by the public etc. What can make it work is not keeping the voter out of the loop. What would make it work is education and regulation by and for the public. Keep federal government and corperate influence out. All those who the public appoints to represent their industry should be watched with a close eye. By watching I mean making sure they can account for all their assets. If one has a 30 million dollar home but only makes a hundred grand a year well it's not hard to figure out that some sort of collusion has occured.

"The only way I can sum up the the 1,000 word response worth of beans I shelled out for this but deleted is: good intentions pave the road to hell. Governments are always subject to human error, greed and corruption. Slapping a government or public label on the energy sector is not going to solve anything; if history has taught us anything, it has taught us that these situations turn out poor. Never give yourself a false sense of security."

The only reason why thing fail is because the citizens not just in America but here to let them fail. If you shop at Wal-Mart for example you are supporting the destruction of the economy and slave labour. The thing is about having a public sector organization is that it would not be regulated by federal or state/provincial officials. It would also require a cap on how much monetary could be earned by private interests . Since no one could gain a monopoly like the one there is now. A public trust must happen or the new fuel will become monopolized by the greedy psychopaths we call corperations.

Greed and corruption are not erronous, they are decisions we have our own minds. People can make the right decisions too. There is simply no good reason why you would completely screw the people that way unless of course you have megalomania or some other psychological disorder.

As for what history has taught me well it has taught me to not repeat the mistakes of the past and since nobody has proposed what I am proposing to regulate an industry with a public trust of sorts well there you have it.

The problem with people these days is they are too damn scared of new ideas and this is really unfortunate. I do not wrap myself in a sense of false security I simply tell people how good things can really be if we all worked together and simply tried. I am an optimistic person I always try to see what good will come of our situations. If some of my ideas fail then so be it I can always try again or come up with new ideas.

Optimists are the people who succeed, not those who fear new ideas and good ol human ingenuity. It is unfortunate that we are a dying breed of people.

Originally posted by danwild6


Gasoline is heavily subsidized. I remember a quote that I read recently(give me sometime to look it up)that stated if the government removed all subsidies from gasoline it would cost the consumer $15 a gallon to purchase.

$15 dollars a gallon Where did you hear that.

It cost oil companies about 20 bucks to get a barrel out of the ground and its going for what $ 72-75 bucks a barrel now? They could sell it cheaper with any subsidies and still make a nice profit at the rate they hike it up for consumers.

Gas is 12 cents a gallon in Iraq last i heard

The price increase brought the cost of a gallon of gasoline from the equivalent of less than 5 cents to about 40 cents

www.washingtonpost.com...

www.blah3.com... is another good read

Took me a while but here is were I got it.

March 06 issue of Discover magazine
Appel offers no apologies for needing government largresse to make money. "All oil, even fossil fuel oil needs subsidies in the form of tax breaks and other incentives", he says citing a 1998 study by the International Center for Technology Assessment showing that unsubsidized conventional gasoline would cost consumers $15 a gallon

Anything into oil

P.S. I'm going to look for that study

[edit on 29-6-2006 by danwild6]

None of you have really made much a deal about the main reason I would not use E85: Performance.

I see the Diesel engine as the future and would very totally satisfied with it's performance. I believe good ol' Gasoline might one day in the far future be something more for sportscars or exotics. But currently, unless you drive a pickup truck, there aren't many options out there for performance Diesel. And as someone who loves performance, E85 is just not an option at all.

(I only run 93+ octane in my cars, with the occasional tank of Sunoco 100)

Originally posted by vinrock
None of you have really made much a deal about the main reason I would not use E85: Performance.

I see the Diesel engine as the future and would very totally satisfied with it's performance. I believe good ol' Gasoline might one day in the far future be something more for sportscars or exotics. But currently, unless you drive a pickup truck, there aren't many options out there for performance Diesel. And as someone who loves performance, E85 is just not an option at all.

(I only run 93+ octane in my cars, with the occasional tank of Sunoco 100)

What are you talking about? Performance decrease with E85???? Uhhh no. E85 not only runs cooler, has a higher octane (estimated around 105 ), it allows for more boost and more timing. It usually yields about 8-15% increase in performance.

However on the diesel side of things, you can get MASSIVE amounts of power and enough torque to tear down a building if built right. Diesels also have other adavantages such as longer oil drain intervals and no spark plugs or wires. There is also BIO DIESEL. But you have to watch for water in your fuel supply. But on the bad side of things diesels also put out more emmisions.

Originally posted by scoobdude


What are you talking about? Performance decrease with E85???? Uhhh no. E85 not only runs cooler, has a higher octane (estimated around 105 ), it allows for more boost and more timing. It usually yields about 8-15% increase in performance.

However on the diesel side of things, you can get MASSIVE amounts of power and enough torque to tear down a building if built right. Diesels also have other adavantages such as longer oil drain intervals and no spark plugs or wires. There is also BIO DIESEL. But you have to watch for water in your fuel supply. But on the bad side of things diesels also put out more emmisions.

Ya got me on that - i musta been mixed up thinkin of some other alternative fuel... Looked into E85 and was suprised, I made an assumption that kinda put me in the dark I guess.