POLITICS: Rice Offers No Apology for Airstrike

MONROVIA, Liberia - "These are not people who can be dealt with lightly" said Rice on Monday, on a trip to Africa to celebrate Africa's first elected woman president. Airstrikes killed 17 people, but not Zawahri, who was the main target. Intelligence had reported that Zawahri would be attending a dinner that night to celebrate a Muslim holiday. I guess they were wrong. Again.



So again, our "intelligence" told us he was there. And again, our intel was wrong. Now 17 people lay dead. After the intelligence debacle now known as "Iraqi-Freedom", one would think we might be a little more conservative when we act on "intelligence".

Thousands have now taken to the streets to protest the US in Afghanastan, and the hatred for America rises. If our intel was so sure he was going to be there, why not a surgical strike on the compound by ground forces? At least prisoners could have been taken, and perhaps some "real" intelligence could be gained. But like the wedding crashers we are known as, we blindly bomb civilians to oblivion.

When you add to all the mistakes, the fact that we can't even be bothered to make an apology (even informal) to the innocent people killed, it is no wonder the terror will only increase.

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This has been covered extensively in other threads. The "innocent civilians" were thought to be harboring terrorists. If they didn't know about it, as some seem to imply, then the blame falls upon the tribal leaders who did know and failed to warn the villagers.

But, once again, this ground has already been covered.

[edit on 16-1-2006 by jsobecky]

They chanted ``Death to America'' and demanded U.S. troops leave neighboring Afghanistan.

We're certainly not making any friends around the world with our 'cart-before-the-horse' type intelligence mistakes, are we?

And the fact that when these intelligence mistakes happen and "oopsie! People are dead", the leaders don't have the honor to apologize. :shk:

Interesting. We can sit back and decide how incompetent the intelligence-gathering assets are, and we don't even have to have all the facts ourselves. As a matter of fact, we don't even have to have a clue how any bad intel happened, even if it wasn't bad intel, but a sudden change of the target's action.

As far as the world having bad and critical opinions of us, I am always hearing about this, about how the world is continuously having a bad opinion of us, I am not concerned, personally. When the rest of the world is doing nothing, they won't do such things. But then, the fact that they do nothing also is doing something, and those who should have been doing something is giving me a a bad opinion of them. That is beside the point, though, as they care as little about me as I do about them.

Still, I find it funny how we are to apologize every time a typical incident of war occurs. This is not a way to fight a war, and to ask that we apologize every time such a thing occurs is less than realistic.

[edit on 16-1-2006 by Thomas Crowne]

Perhaps it would have been easier if the target was to the convoy of the suspected target rather than going into targeting an area of homes.

I have to say that for an administration that claims to be in pursue of democracy and freedom and that are protecting life, targeting civilian areas in middle east third world countries is not helping win any friends to help with the cause.

I kind of feel that when it comes with this fight on terror it looks more like a fight against middle eastern people and their culture and their believes.

[edit on 16-1-2006 by marg6043]

Well, never let it be said the US learns from its mistakes.

In Somalia they used Tow missiles on a building to take out Aideed. They didn't get him but they did git a whole lot of others.

Naturally the victims yelled that the house was full of women and children and naturally the US military denied there any women or children there.

Remember that "decapitation exercise" that kicked off Iraq '03?

So this time there were no "innocent civilians", huh? I guess that must be "with us or against us" in action.

Zawahri,

isn't he a civilian?
Isn't Bin Laden a civilian.

technically spekaing, of course..

TC, we may be making incorrect judgments about this situation, but nobody is being killed because of our mistakes. If someone was going to die because of what I said, you can be sure I wouldn't rush to judgment.

And I am concerned about how the rest of the world views us because when they hate us, they fly airplanes into our buildings. That's not saying we should act totally in defference to anyone's wishes, but I think we should have SOME concern how the rest of the world views us.

Our misplaced actions are making more enemies.

This whole war is based on a series of intelligence mistake (or so they say). What's wrong with apologizing when you screw up? Especially when people are dead?

At least, here, if I'm wrong, I have the integrity to say so.

[edit on 16-1-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]

What do you expect BH you have not heard yet any apologies for the death of Innocent civilians in Iraq.

Do you think the administration is going to apologized for Pakistan? or Afghanistan?

Is all for the war on terror and for liberty and freedom and to bring democracy in the world for those that have none.

Occurs we made no apologies for how many we kill in the process.Right.

And perhaps the whole idea is not to make friends at all.

I wonder.

Without terror will be no war, so we must keep the terrorist cause alive.

BH, what part did I not make clear? This is WAR! We didn't start this. If you recall, they flew the planes into us first. They will do that REGARDLESS!
You want them to not do it? You take the war to them. You do it as was done in WWII. Were there "innocent" people killed then? Sure. Did we stop and say, "oopsie" everytime it happened? Of course not. War is messy, people die. Even children. Even the children of people who support and hide the enemy.
What you might need to understand is that these people hate you. If you sit quietly, they will hate you. If you say you are sorry, they will see you as weak and hate you. They hate you. They hated the flight attendants and cut their throats, even though the attendants brought them a cup of coffee and a smile a few minutes earlier. It makes no difference.

I thought it was obvious what I meant in regard to us sitting back and criticizing, but apparently not. Yes, we aren't getting anyone killed, we are not making mistakes when we criticize, but we are also doing NOTHING! You aren't keeping the next attack from happening. You don't have your butt on the line. You aren't wading through all the intel, trying to decide what to do. As a matter of fact, you see NONE of the intel, so you have no clue what your suggestion would be. What you are doing is criticizing from a position of total lack of knowledge, and have no idea how many people who were killed were actually enemies of you, totally supporting the one who was targeted. Thatwas my point. It is so easy for us to sit safely in our homes and tsk-tsk what we think was a mistake.

Thomas I understand your point and I agree that the guilty should be punished.

But you think that they are going to hates us less while US target civilians by mistake.

How much revenge is worth the life of Innocent while pursuing the guilty.

No all the people in the middle east is the enemy and no all the people in the middle east is guilty of 9/11.

So how many more need to die for 9/11, The entire middle east nations?

You are Christian man with strong faith, Thomas I am not a religious follower, but I am very distress about the death of so many because the pursue of "War on Terror".

The more US target the middle east the more enemies are created.

I know that the previous post was not for me, but I have to add this to the thread.

I think the point is that we are successfully being proactive in defeating terrorism. Have we had any major terrorist attacts in our country since 911? No! and thats because we are keeping these heartless murdering terrorists on the run and having nightmares about US bombs dropping on their heads.

This being said, ....I do feel that we do need to take a little more responsibility in our mistakes. The right approch in an appology will not render us more harm. This strike is still being investigated, however if these were completely innocent people, we should appologize and compensate them accordingly. This is all we really can do. I wouldn't be surprised if we did get some terrorist targets....and its just currently being kept quiet. The problem i have is....if we adequately coordinated with Pakistani authorities or not. I don't think we really have the right to just start dropping bombs freely in any sovereign nation.

Carburetor

TC: Being one of the head honchos around here, I am a little offended and surpised by your tone.

Interesting. We can sit back and decide how incompetent the intelligence-gathering assets are, and we don't even have to have all the facts ourselves. As a matter of fact, we don't even have to have a clue how any bad intel happened, even if it wasn't bad intel, but a sudden change of the target's action.

Yes, I find it extremley incompetent to bomb a house for the sole purpose of killing someone who isnt there. As Evan Bayh said: "the CIA had been watching the area for several days and that the agency would not have conducted such an operation without extraordinarily high levels of intelligence." Yes, such high levels of intel. That was wrong. Again.

BH, what part did I not make clear? This is WAR! We didn't start this. If you recall, they flew the planes into us first. They will do that REGARDLESS!

They? Who are "they"? Muslims? Arabs? Iraqis? Afghans? If thats the case then "we" bombed them. Could you possible stereotype a race of people any worse? This isnt "us" against "them". Its a new world.

You do it as was done in WWII. Were there "innocent" people killed then? Sure. Did we stop and say, "oopsie" everytime it happened? Of course not. War is messy, people die. Even children. Even the children of people who support and hide the enemy.

Right. And if this was WW2, that would be a good point. But its not. Its been 60+ years since then. We didnt have an ever present media then. And if we did, things would have been different. Look at how much changed between WW2 and Vietnam. Information is key. Also to note: We are not at war with any countries the last time I looked. What we are doing amounts to nothing more than advanced extradition of wanted fugitives.

What you might need to understand is that these people hate you. If you sit quietly, they will hate you. If you say you are sorry, they will see you as weak and hate you. They hate you. They hated the flight attendants and cut their throats, even though the attendants brought them a cup of coffee and a smile a few minutes earlier. It makes no difference.

And what YOU need to understand is that hating them will bring nothing.

Yes, we aren't getting anyone killed, we are not making mistakes when we criticize, but we are also doing NOTHING!

How can you be so blind? Yes we are doing something. We are keeping it an issue. And issue that our ELECTED OFFICIALS must address and repair if they hope to remain in office. If I follow your logic, its "shut up, your opinion doesnt matter anyways".

While I have no intel papers sitting in front of me, I can review off the top of my head. Lets see, first we went to Afghanistan, to find Osama. That went well. We've got a prison full of "terrorists" that we "interorgate" intensly and yet we get nothing.

So then its off to Iraq, because suddenly Saddam became a threat. You know, all WMDs. Remember Powell on TV with that little vial of anthrax? Where is it now? Wheres the stockpiles that our "intel" had assured us was there waiting for us? Oh nevermind, just make it about bringing "freedom to the Iraqis" right? Us, stupid people wont care, and if we do, someone can just tell us to shut up, because our opinion doesnt matter, right? Hell, we can't even find Zarqawi, and he was pretty much surrounded. We "punk'd" Iraq, plain and simple.

This is an instant information society. If your gonna drop bombs, you better be sure your hitting what your aiming for. The WW2 references are old and boring. We dont have to carpet bomb anymore. We can read license plates from space. If there was a change in plans, then that intel that was watching so closley should have picked it up.

Maybe a huge segment of the islamic society hates us, because of our indiffernce. Maybe they hate us because of our "well, we'll just kill em, and that'll be that" attitude. They havent always hated us. This is pretty new. There for a while we got along well. Ask yourself "what happened.. what went wrong ?"


[edit on 17-1-2006 by spliff4020]

Uh, Spliff, why is my position here an issue? My tone? My My tone is one of fatigue from people trying to Monday Morning Quarterback that which they don't understand.

Blind? I am not nearly as blind as you think. The blindness just might well be plaguing others.

Our elected leadership? Now you are suggesting the leadership do what; perform miracles?

Hey, you seem to be safe enough to roll'em and post here; it seems that the military and intel bunch is doing pretty darned good. You want to get all in a wad over a single incident, and incident that I doubt you know all the facts and doubt you've sat in on the debriefings?

Want more tone, or are you able to comprehend what I have just made perfectly clear and plain?

Again, to make it very clear, you are pretty safe considering there are those who want to kill you, have stated as much time and again, and have once caught us with our pants down.

I have a better idea. Rather than trying to sit comfortably and criticize those who are keeping your complaining self in one piece, why not drop them a line and thank them for doing as good a job as they are? Thank them for your safety, and thank them for all the times that innocent people weren't killed as they would have been in previous wars.

That is to say, think about what you never hear about, instead of allowing the knee-jerk reactions spurned by the media to overcome you.

By the way, it is amusing to note that whenever someone disagrees with me, they try to get extra traction by taking notice of my position. I have yet to understand that.

[edit on 17-1-2006 by Thomas Crowne]

By the way, it is amusing to note that whenever someone disagrees with me, they try to get extra traction by taking notice of my position. I have yet to understand that.

Your words come out like your talking down to people. I think some people are a little taken-a-back, when someone in your position here comes out the gate like that. (IMO)... carrying on..

Monday Morning Quarterback that which they don't understand.

I understand this well. We bombed a house, intending to kill someone specific. We screwed up. Again. You are coming off as if this is a one time thing. Perhaps I could refresh your memory-- There is this mistake and the little fiasco over in Iraq

Do you honestly think that we shouldnt say some sort of apology ?? Nothing? I think thats wrong. I think it would go along way. They wouldnt have to hold a prime time press conference, but a mention, or someone like Condi, somewhere to just say something to the effect of " While we apologize for the loss of innocent civilians, there were indeed targets of high value...blah blah blah". At least acknowledge it.

Our elected leadership? Now you are suggesting the leadership do what; perform miracles?

While performing a miracle would definitly get MY vote, no. Not miracles. Every single person in charge of this war, is an elected offical who can be removed. I assume that most of them like their job and want to keep it. A good way to do that is keeping the public happy. There are a million different indictments brewing now because WE THE PEOPLE aren't content to sit still. We rattle the right cages and things happen.

You want to get all in a wad over a single incident

Again, not a single incident, and not just the incident itself, but rather how the aftermath is handled. Is it helping or hurting?

Want more tone, or are you able to comprehend what I have just made perfectly clear and plain?

... see, its that, that I was talking about above. I think people are just used to mods being a little nicer. I dont suppose you have to be, but that is a fairly confrontational tone. It almost begs for a fight. Not the norm.

I have a better idea. Rather than trying to sit comfortably and criticize those who are keeping your complaining self in one piece, why not drop them a line and thank them for doing as good a job as they are? Thank them for your safety, and thank them for all the times that innocent people weren't killed as they would have been in previous wars.

Who, exactly do you think I am criticizing here? The soldiers? No. Its how the Leadership here handles the mess.

That is to say, think about what you never hear about, instead of allowing the knee-jerk reactions spurned by the media to overcome you.

I am aware of the good that we are doing. I am also afraid that it will be overshadowed by our callous reactions to our mistakes. This isnt an "us against them" war. We are going after specific people. I hardly think that gives us the right to bomb at will. And if it does, can China come here and bomb a house looking for someone?

I want, whole-heartedly, to believe that this is a good and just war. I want to see the people in Iraq free. But I want us to go at it with a certain amount class as well. We are number one, and as such we are held to a higher standard. Anything less, puts us on the same level with the people we are fighting.

you government played you like 16 year old virgins and now youre still finding excuses for all the MURDERED civilians your army and your agencies kill years later all over the world. At least admit they made a horrible mistake you pantsies.

Sickening to say the least.



Crowne, thats a pretty shallow point of view for a moderator of a conspiracy site dont you think

Mr Carburetor:
I think the point is that we are successfully being proactive in defeating terrorism. Have we had any major terrorist attacts in our country since 911? No!

We have no idea if there would have been any more attacks if we had done things entirely differently. Most people fall for this defective logic (as you have) and that's one thing that keeps the war going strong.

I could hang garlic all around my house and claim that it keeps the bobcats away! Same logic.


Sorry... Off Topic:

spliff4020:
TC: Being one of the head honchos around here, I am a little offended and surpised by your tone.
...
Your words come out like your talking down to people.

I hear you, spliff and I agree about the 'talking down' part. But TC's tone has nothing to do with his position. He always sounds like that. Kind of frustrated and fatherly. That's who he is, regardless of his lofty position. I have learned to not take him so seriously or I'll end up in tears.

nukunuku:
Crowne, thats a pretty shallow point of view for a moderator of a conspiracy site dont you think

He's not a moderator, he's an administrator. I totally disagree with TC, but I can't stand to see him attacked because of his status here. THAT'S the low blow, you guys!

If you want to attack what he says, do it. But his administratorship is irrelevant!

If you cut him... does he not bleed?

Back to the topic.

ok ok since you put it that way i take it back as i do not wish to offend anybody

thats a very shallow viewpoint (PERIOD)

If I remember Correctly, Afganistan, Pakistan NOR Iraq Attacked United States. IF you want to Invade a Foreign Country, who sent the supposed Hijackers to crash the Planes into the WTC and the Pentagon - then you would have to Carpet Bomb Saudi Arabia as Well. So, why is that NOT happening?

If I REMEMBER Correctly United States Attacked Iraq TWICE - they did not attack United States. So, who is the AGGRESSOR and who is the DEFENDER?

This attack in Pakistan WAS an ACT OF TERRORISM - a Calculated and Hi-Technology Terrorism. Again a VIRTUAL WARFWARE, perfomed by robot Drones, guided by guys on laptops Miles away. This is not Combat. This is not War. This is HIGH TECHNOLOGY TERRORISM. Innocent Civilans are Still DEAD. And that is WRONG. No matter how you turn it - it is still killing of innocent civilans and breaking their fundamental Human Rights.

And I am not Surprised that Anacondy does not offer any Apology - all is GOOD when fighting Terrorists. All is GOOD when hunting down Al-Qaeda. All is GOOD when protecting Freedom and Democracy.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Most of this has already been discussed on this thread.

Rice is absolutely correct in not apologizing. There is
nothing to apologize for. 17 people died. NOT all of
them were innocent civilians. They invited a known
terrorist to celebrate a Muslim holiday. The second
most wanted man on the planet. If bombs fell from
the sky and destroyed them ... they have only
themselves to blame.

All discussed here -
www.abovetopsecret.com...