what is up with "white nationalism"?

Wow, I turn my back for a few days and all of a sudden I'm WAY behind on replies here. Guess I've got some catching up to do.

Blackthought:

Racism hardly "started" in America. The "us and them" nonsense is as old as nations. Note the very names of many nations- France (Franks) England (Angles) etc. Wars of expansion have been occurring and resulting in genocide, diaspora, and enslavement for virtually as long as human history can remember- Babylon, Egypt, Israel, Rome- find me a pair of hands not soaked in so-called "impure" blood. It's one of the many stupid things that humans started doing when we came up with the arguably laughable idea that a person can own part of the Earth.

It is, in very very many cases, state sanctioned though, although I hasten to add that people do not necessarily need the government's help to be stupid, and thus the existence of it in a place does not necessarily mean that the government in that area is offending to a significant degree.


Also, I agree with your phrasing but not your point in regards to reverse racism. I agree that there is no "reverse racism" because all racism is just racism, regardless of the source or the target.
There is, however a reciprocation of racism to whites, albiet not with nearly the traumatic effects that other races have suffered. If one is to say that victims of racism cannot possibly be racist themselves, then one would be forced to agree that the warring tribes in Rwanda are not racists, simply because each has been on the recieving end of a genocide attempt in the past.


Above all, I'd like to reitterate that both of the above subjects go back to us and them nonsense about who started it and who screwed who, and can only serve to perpetuate racism. They are subjects which ought to be recognized for what they are and separated from the more important question of what we ought to be doing to put an end to racism.


As for education: I come from California public schools, which makes me a rather unlikely individual; I should be some kind moron. However, I paid attention in school (sometimes), and I took the initiative to do outside reading because what there was time to teach in the span of roughly 150 hours in any given class per year was sufficient to make me curious.

Naturally the history taught in our schools is predominantly American history- which may have something to do with the fact that everyone in those classes was an American and therefore it was the most relevant history for all of us, because it illustrated the origin and function of the system that we will all be living our lives in.

I do not believe that history classes centering on our national history are the cause of racism. I've often found it a lot harder to like some people when I know more about them. Take George Bush for example- the more we get to know about the man, the harder it becomes to take him seriously.
While more education is virtually never a bad thing, I think that more cultural education in and of itself will not serve to stop the us-and-them mentality that fuels reactionary racism, and in fact I believe that if every race begins demanding the teaching of its own history, we will be seeing a symptom of increased "us and them" thinking.

For example, I've learned spit about Irish history in school, and that doesn't bother me, even though a good portion of my family tree leads back to that country. No big deal, the history most relevant to me is American history, IMHO. Would it not be somewhat divisive if I started demanding that "ALL of you have to learn where MY people came from"? Would it not follow that I do not view my fellow Americans, and more to the point, my classmates, as "my people", but as outsiders?

If I may belabor the point of education just a little further, in my humble opinion, the best way to use education to cure racism is not simply to add new things to the curriculum, but to reevaluate the whole system and the funding thereof in order to ensure that a kid born in Watts or South Boston is prepared to go just as far in life as a kid born into a six-figure earning family in... well, wherever the heck it is that rich people live these days.

I think that building a common future is a lot more important than emphasizing our separate pasts- wherever we're from, this is where we are now.

[edit on 16-1-2006 by The Vagabond]

The modern type of racism did start in America. The singling out of people because of their race and not of their birthplace or class did start here. The French did not like the English the English did not like the Spanish the Spanish did not like the Italians but there were light and dark skinned people in the countries and were not separated by race.


There were many many different races of people that raised this country and somehow out of most of them you only hear about the rich white land owners as the movers and shakers. Most others are seen dissenting from the political norm MLK, H Tubman, and others. They never show them building a better system so America itself could prosper. My point is that if you set a child up in a system that never shows them that their race did more than serve another what do you really think their mind state would be like?

To demand that my culture and my ways be apart of the system in a positive way should be a part of the discussion because I am here I will be here and if we know each other then it will be easier to negotiate the future for our children.
What make Americans American sometimes is ignorance somehow they do not want to know about what I going on in the world and then wrap themselves up in the flag and proclaim it’s all good here. Katrina showed me it is not all good here in vivid detail. White Nationalism sets up other people as animals. It is easy to kill an animal than a human. I cannot tell you how many times on this site I have see the racist dribble come out of a western persons mouth about blacks, Muslims, religious persons, or representatives of non western thought. And most of them dont even know that they are racist.

Originally posted by BlackThought
The modern type of racism did start in America. The singling out of people because of their race and not of their birthplace or class did start here.

(Sarcasm) Right, because there weren't color-castes in India or anywhere else previously, so obviously it's a purely American phenomenon.(/Sarcasm) Your contention is disingenuous at best. It dies by a thousand qualifications- qualifications designed to support the implication that racism is a purely white phenomenon- the very us and them business which has allowed racism to persist in the absence of theories of superiority.

you only hear about the rich white land owners as the movers and shakers. Most others are seen dissenting from the political norm MLK, H Tubman, and others. They never show them building a better system so America itself could prosper.

Nonsense. Martin Luther King and Harriet Tubman are hadly parriahs in American history classes. I definately came away from my history lessons with the impressions that they were "movers and shakers" who helped build a better system to the benefit of America.

What do you consider a mover and shaker exactly? Perhaps that is the real question on this issue. Historians cannot change the facts of what blacks have and have not done in this country. They HAVE made important technological and sociological contributions, they have brought cases to the SCOTUS which are invaluable to the proper interpretation of our constitution, they HAVE proven their valor on many battlefields, they HAVE produced great literature, and they HAVE had a dramatic impact on American culture.

So what is it that they have not done which they would have to be shown doing to make them "movers and shakers". Well, it wasn't blacks who introduced weapons of mass destruction to this planet, it wasn't blacks who built dangerous monopolies, it wasn't blacks that ran political machines- but wait, all of those are bad things anyway. So maybe I'm missing something- are you upset that minorities have not wielded corrupt power in this country? Is that what it takes to be a mover and a shaker? Whatever it is that you want blacks to be portrayed as in our textbooks, it seems your quarrel is likely to be not with presentation, but with the facts themselves, because for some reason you seem unsatisfied with the important role that African Americans have played in our nation's history- a role which is accurately represented in every textbook I ever had to read.

My point is that if you set a child up in a system that never shows them that their race did more than serve another what do you really think their mind state would be like?

Maybe your school just had bad textbooks- that's not what mine said about blacks at all. My history books included black inventors, black soldiers, black ministers, black Supreme Court Justices (start that asterisk business with me and this conversation is over), etc etc etc.

To demand that my culture and my ways be apart of the system in a positive way should be a part of the discussion because I am here I will be here and if we know each other then it will be easier to negotiate the future for our children.

What is your culture and your ways exactly. Compare your diet, your favorite music, your clothes, the work you do, your recreational activities, etc etc etc with the people around you, with people in Africa, and with anyone else you please. I am quite confident that you will quickly discover that your culture and ways are taught in our schools, because we are not our grandparents, we are ourselves. We are this generation, in this country, with this culture. We have our family trees and our ethnic backgrounds, and these are nothing to be ashamed of, however it would be a mistake to define ourselves according to them because it separates us from one another.

somehow they do not want to know about what I going on in the world and then wrap themselves up in the flag and proclaim it’s all good here.

Right on both counts, but not in the way that you think.

The problem with Americans is the ignorance of current events and of relevant historical data. A lack of cultural understanding is pretty far down on the list of our problems compared to the lack of useful knowledge in a shocking number of areas.

Things are DEFINATELY not all good here, and a lot of it stems from our insistence on dividing ourselves, not from our lack of understanding of the histories that divide us. A lot of what's wrong here comes from us being stuck in the past.
Some like to dwell on the state of racial integration in the 1860s and 1970s. Some like to dwell on the state of military affairs in the 1950s and 1980s. Some like to dwell on the state of the economy in the late 1990s. Some, including yourself, seem to want to dwell on the state of things before their families got to this country.
If we want things to be all good in this country, we better start looking at the state of things in 2006, on all fronts. Not who did what to who racially, but what we're going to do together now. Not who we beat in 1945, but who might be thinking about beating us. Not how much money we had before our tech stocks stopped growing like mad, but how we're going to make em start growing again.

We're from America now, not from a thousand other places. We need a collective identity, not individual backgrounds. We need a plan for tomorrow, not a review of yesterday.
You're sure as heck right that we've got a problem, but I disagree as to what the solution is.


PS As for religion- religions are not racially defined, therefore opposition to religion is not racism. Personally, I call it atheism, and I think it's a great idea, as long as it doesn't lead one to hate others. (incidentally, the inspiration of hate is part of WHY I don't endorse religion).

I gotta agree with BT here. I was taught in school that black history started with slavery. Sure they teach us about the MLKs and what-not, but what about the rich history before slavery?
Vagabond, are you saying we should blend our cultures and completely assimilate black, latin, white, asian, etc...?
It doesnt do too much to preserve our unique identities.

[edit on 17-1-2006 by DaFunk13]

There were cast systems by birthplace that is what cast means it is racist but not the same type here. Here everything has been broken down to an individual level. And reading about Kemet (Egypt) there was racism but not the same as here. Hitler got his propaganda from here. In the early 1900s there were people developing ideas of certain “uncivilized” people as useless air breathers. He took it and ran with it. By no means am I saying it is a white only phenom I’m saying this form here is. Have you read the Francis Cress Welsing Key to the Colors? It breaks down a lot of the customs and structural events to keep America the way it is.

I will agree there is a large middle ground in what you are saying. Maybe California had a good educational system but in the south was I am from maybe not the case. We heard we were slaves and then we did what we did...but somehow it never sounded like when they talked about George or Lincoln. In fact they never told us more than about MLK and few others Feb is a short month . I have a list on my wall of the black scientist and inventors, and then I have another book of the anthology of African and African American writers. Most of the real helpful information I had to get on my own in college not from school. They can talk about slavery in school but the never tell how many were killed. They never talk about how many Indians were killed. Most of that info is important to the discussion and the growth of young minds.

I remember Riots in the streets to get MLK to become a holiday.

The threats from school to be suspended because that was the day we would go to the city and March to hear speeches. There were a lot of times where there was someone who looked like me doing things as a kid I dreamed about but I did not get that from school. All I am saying it was there for others

Keys to colors was good. Have you read Wretched of the Earth by Fanon?

Its a perfect snapshot into the socio-political mess that has plagued african nations, and its relevant right up to today.

I definately recommend it.

DaFunk- I see where you're going with this, but I think there's a difference between what you and BT are saying. Black history in America, very sadly, does begin with slavery, but thereafter the many things I have pointed out are also included.

I agree that there is, as with any culture, plenty of history before they showed up in America, but how revelant is that by comparrison to American history. Lest we forget, our public education system exists to pass on useful knowledge that will help people be more productive members of society. American history, and perhaps a survey course in world history (which ought to include some African history) are obviously applicable there. On the other hand, forcing every single student to learn about every single detail of every single culture represented in the school is going to viritually double the credit load on students and give them very little practical knowledge, and this is going to cause some resentment, especially since we know full well that not every culture will be represented.

Heritage is a good thing and has a place, but forcing it into our public schools is likely to be more divide us more than unite us.

As for integration: yes and no. As far as public affairs in are concerned- yes. As far as our personal lives- no.

I like to have a few Guiness and some corned beef and cabbage for St. Patty's, I know a thing or two about Irish History, know when my grandparents came over, and I'm certainly no worse for it, even if it hasn't been so practically useful. That's all good.

What is not all good is to look at our decisions at present along lines of cultural identification. If somebody told me "Irish guys have to be Catholic and vote Democrat" I'd tell em to stick it in their least sanitary orifice. If I own a business and an Irish guy walks in to apply, I can't say "hey, you're one of us, you're hired" if I've got applications from more qualified people sitting on my desk.

What I'm talking about more than anything else is 1. Keeping things fair in the schools. 2. Not supressing cultural identification, but certainly seeing to it that we don't define ourselves first and foremost by it at the expense of our identity as Americans, which is the common ground we ought to be able to share.

Originally posted by BlackThought
There were cast systems by birthplace that is what cast means it is racist but not the same type here.

Nonsense. The Indian caste system is called Varna. Wanna know what Varna means.... COLOR.

When you have to modify and qualify something again and again and again to make it quasi-accurate, it loses meaning.

I will agree there is a large middle ground in what you are saying.

I appreciate that. And to be fair, while I disagree with you, I see where you're coming from and see a legit origin to the idea.

Maybe California had a good educational system

One of the worst.

but in the south was I am from maybe not the case. We heard we were slaves and then we did what we did...but somehow it never sounded like when they talked about George or Lincoln.

Hmm, that's an interesting point, considering where you're from I mean. It should have occurred to me that in a different part of the country you might find very different views and attitudes associated with those lessons. I'll leave that one alone since I haven't sat in your classroom with your teacher and your book.

They never talk about how many Indians were killed. Most of that info is important to the discussion and the growth of young minds.

Maybe this is just another disparity between schools, but we got a pretty healthy helping of detail on what happened to the Indians. I've got some Choctaw in me, and my favorite cousin has is 1/4 Navajo on top of that, so I took note of that lesson.


Anyway, I'm glad that this has been a really civil conversation- thanks for the chat. Feel free to reitterate anything you'd like to, but I think I've said my part.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
the main source i had was a documentary about the white supremecist music "scene" (not the one that was on abc primetime), the party, who's name i still don't remember, has decided to put out an album with some well known songs lyrics changed to support their cause.


i'll get to work finding some other research i had done on the topic.

i think i know what show your talking about. the group im thinking of is out of germany there like a grassroots nazi movement. but ive always suspected that there is still an underground nazi movement in germany.
i mean you cant expect a country that was that into nazism to just say oh ok lets be demecratic now. they really had no choice but to change so im shure there are still some underground movement (especially in there government).

I understand they cant teach the long history of each different ethnic background in the classroom, no doubt.

But, How many school children are taught about more than MLK, Rosa Parks, or Chief Joseph? I know about a huge amount of european history that has squat to do with the US as a nation. I believe I had at least one entire required class dedicated to it.
They also omit the fact that our forefathers were slave owners. Thats a pretty significant detail to leave out. What about race riots? Whats about the Klan? What about Nat Turner? What about Mumia Abu Jamal, and the countless others that were screwed in our "blind" justice system?

Why are we forced to learn these things on our own?

This IS american history. The true stuff anyways. I just think that if the teachers dont have time or room in the curriculum they should at least plant the seeds. Make it required reading.

If we spent a little extra time teaching our true past, even the stuff nobody is proud of, we would have better ideas of how to better interact with each other and improve our lot in life. Youths graduate frustrated that the world is not the way they were taught, especially minorities.
Racism is still alive and kicking, our civil rights leaders didnt completely solve our problems, they only paved the way for the future generations.
This is the ultimate lesson that needs to be taught.

i live in america and learned alot of that through out school. i learned in elementary school about who the kkk was. ive been out of school for 10 years now but i dont think its changed that much.

i just want to point out that racism effects everyone and yes even young white males. we dont all have trust funds and rich upper class parents.
we have to scrape and claw are way to the top except we dont have any government programs to help us out. we dont have anything to make shure that we get jobs or giving us a right to go to certain schools. no big lawyer firm to make shure that we get equel rights.

now im not racist but yes i am proud of my heritage and race. and yes i agree that racism is live and well in america and the rest of the world. no i dont agree with it but white people arnt the only racist out there (as a couple of people on this thread pointed out) as we to feel the cold ignorant hands of it also.

What do trust funds and rich parents have to do with anything? This is not a class issue. There is racism in all social classes.
And I dont think the injustices you endure even compare to things like slavery, or Native American genocide, or the racist aspects that exist today. I never heard of people lynching whitey in Alabama my friend.

I would love to hear an example of this horrendous racism you are forced to endure.

no but my friend was nearly beaten to death in dc for being white. i was shot at in baltimore for being white. but you actually missed my whole point like i figured you would.

i am very far from being racist. yet living in the area that i do i see it towards white people all the time. am i saying that it is worse then what happend in the olden days, no. but if your going to talk about racism them you must aproach it from all angles. if you cant see that racism encompasses everyone then you your self would be some what of a racist.

oh yea, um my family can be traced back 2 generations to full bred cheriokee indian so dont bring up the indian issue its mute.

[edit on 18-1-2006 by plague]

I lived in Benton Harbor MI for two years, so I have seen the worst racism that can be thrown at a white guy. It is blacker than DC even. I was also shot at, but for reasons other than being white. My family owned a grocery store that was beloved by the whole community. Any violence I experienced was ignorance based, not racist as the two are different sometimes.
And it should also be noted that these black communities we speak of are racist for pretty good reasons. Your Native American heritage echos this sentiment I am sure.
I could go on and on about the subject, but the fact that you will even argue that the racism inflicted on whites is even close to that which has been inflicted on Blacks, or any other race, shows me that you are a bit confused as to what this arguement is about. Your point only serves to sidetrack sound debate.

Originally posted by DaFunk13
Your point only serves to sidetrack sound debate.

How so? Because he's not siding with the Black-American community? I fail to see your point. All I see is one-sided biggotry. How long do you believe that we should be paying restitution for crimes committed decades ago? I'm not trying to bust your balls. Just trying to understand.

I never mentioned restitution man, thats a silly arguement. I refuse to fess up for someone elses racist ancestors.

All I am saying is...White people dont see a splinter of the racism that blacks do, whether 150 years ago or today. Its silly to say that the white man is being held down, or oppressed in any way.

Am I silly for thinking this?

Your friend getting his lilly ass kicked, or someone being shot at doesnt even shake a stick at the issues I am speaking of.

And I feel like I should also state that I am a white guy. I just see things for the way they are, rather than the way that feels comfortable. This guy seems to claim that its all fair and good cause black people are racist too, but its just not so.

Originally posted by DaFunk13
I never mentioned restitution man, thats a silly arguement. I refuse to fess up for someone elses racist ancestors.

All I am saying is...White people dont see a splinter of the racism that blacks do, whether 150 years ago or today. Its silly to say that the white man is being held down, or oppressed in any way.

Am I silly for thinking this?

Your friend getting his lilly ass kicked, or someone being shot at doesnt even shake a stick at the issues I am speaking of.

And I feel like I should also state that I am a white guy. I just see things for the way they are, rather than the way that feels comfortable. This guy seems to claim that its all fair and good cause black people are racist too, but its just not so.

well first off let me start by saying i was not equating racism to wards white people to being equal or worse then other races. you would see that if you actually read what i stated. i am not racist as my sisters husband is black and they have 3 kids. you want to see racism go interact at there school where there not black enough to be black and not white enough to be white. try going to an all indian family reunion where you and your white whore of a mother are shunned because your not full bred cheeriokee.

i never said it was all fair and good but if you want to talk about racism you have to look at it from all angles. not just the black mans. besides i want to know how they are still being opressed in america? yes there are still racist out there and there will always be ....especially when you keep bringing up the past and not looking at the present or future. you my friend are the white supremest best friend. as long as we keep reminding black people that they had it bad back in the day they will keep the mindset that there not equel.

"Those who don't learn from their past are doomed to repeat it."

And please stop defending yourself by saying how many black people you know. I couldnt care less if your sister married a black guy. I never called you racist.

I have yet to hear any of these atrocities the white man has endured due to racism. If you can come up with more than a friend getting beat up for being white, or you being shot at I might be a bit more receptive. These sound like circumstance rather than racism. Did they approach you and say "Hey, we dont like white people...pop, pop, pop?"

I can say I have been a white guy for quite some time now, in a very diverse city, and I have yet to see this horrible racism you speak of. Not to say it doesnt exist, I just have never experienced racism of any significance directed towards me.

I admire you trying to bring a new side to the argument. I really do. I just think its a tad misguided. Approaching an arguement from different angles is good, but this is more apples to oranges if you ask me.

Plague
Are you telling me you do not have any access to food stamps, HOC, Pell grants, Federal money for school? You have the same advantage as anyone else, I cannot tell you how many times I was working at a place where I was the only African American in DC. AA is to keep these people from totally freezing out all blacks from America. (they will hire black immergants) Right now at my job there are 100 people working here we design and build the exhibits for museums in America and guess what? There are only 2 blacks in the whole company. That is a little more than crazy to me. I know there are qualified people to work here that are black but where are they?

The funny thing in growing up... there was no place I could go to be in with only black folks. From the policeman to the judge and all the residents. But I know of places where there is no one to be seen but white folks. That is by design I know it.

we have to scrape and claw are way to the top except we don�t have any government programs to help us out. we don�t have anything to make shure that we get jobs or giving us a right to go to certain schools. no big lawyer firm to make shure that we get equel rights.

Now that�s funny!! No one is making sure that the majority of blacks get high priced jobs. There are no big law firms either have you seen the sentences that blacks get compared the whites? The �Ivy league� schools are mostly white! What are you talking about? You want to talk about equal rights when was the last time you heard about a black cop shooting a white man by mistake? When was the last time you saw a cop go to jail for being dirty?

That is another thing there are more whites of welfare that blacks but they always flash a black face on the screen talking about welfare queens.

I know we all can�t be rich but you do not have to act ghetto either. I live in B�more for a couple of years and had no trouble. In the city or out the city in the county. The only trouble I had been with the cops.


On the object of restitution of former mentioned atrocities. Yes you should pay you paid the Japanese after the Intern camps, you paid the 911 families, you used free labor for over 250 years to make this �superpower� We should get something more than a apology. You try to work for free for even ten years and see what that does to your wealth and dsiposition.
There are families, institutions, and private companies that benefited from slavery and their ancestors continue to benefit from it. By default if you look like those same ancestors you can benefit from it.

There are a lot of things I do not want to pay for here in America but that is the way it is.


[edit on 12/09-2005 by BlackThought]

Originally posted by DaFunk13
"Those who don't learn from their past are doomed to repeat it."

i didnt say not to learn but you must at some point you must realise it and move on.