Indian sub fleet capabilities multiplying!

India just completed a 3 billion USD deal for 6 scorpene subs(SSK) which can carry the EADS SM-39 Exocet anti-ship missiles, and is equipped with six 21in torpedo tubes which can launch a variety of weapons, including wire-guided torpedoes.
us.rediff.com...
Chile and Malaysia have ordered 2 scorpene subs each.

www.naval-technology.com...
www.deagel.com...

Scorpene pics:



Exocet missile:


Also recent reports point to over 300(some reports claim 600) Indian navy sailors being sent to Russia to train for nuclear submarine operations.
This is in relation to India acquiring(initially leasing) 2-4 akulaII/project 971 SSNs.

According to sources, the recent construction of a training centre for the Indian defence officers in Sosnovy Bor, west of St Petersburg, confirms Russia’s intentions to lease nuclear submarines to India.

“The international centre will start training 300 Indian Naval officers by mid-September,” officials said. This constitutes 4 Akula crews.

The centre was incidently built in record time after Putin's visit to India and is said to house an entire SSN simulator w/o an active reactor:

Surprisingly this confirmation came from Green world, a non proliferation/disarmament organisation..

www.bellona.no...
www.financialexpress.com...

The Akula II is said to be one of the quietest attack subs in the world along with the USN los angeles class and sea-wolf attack subs..

Though global security claims taht the deal on the akulas fell through, the above recent developments indicate otherwise.

www.globalsecurity.org...
www.naval-technology.com...


Russian link:
mfit.ru...


Here's an american link comparing the akula to USN assets:

www.cdi.org...

Akula:


India already has 10 (acquiring 2 more this year) kilo class/Project 636 submarines

www.naval-technology.com...

Kilo:



In addition to this India has 7 other SSKs.

Finally it is rumored that India has been constructing a nuclear sub of its own in secret and is therefore putting more light on the above mentioned purchases.
The sub known as ATV(advanced technology vehicle) is supposedly due in 2008-2010.

www.deccanherald.com...

With such an upgrade of the underwater fleet the Indian Navy will be able to reign supreme in the Indian ocean, matching up to even the USN capabilities in the region.
Certain reports claim that even far off countries like australia have voiced concerns over these recent developments.
The pakistan navy which was already overwhelming inferior the IN had recently climbed up a notch by acquiring 3 french Agosta-90B subs, but these latest acquisitions by the IN have furhter widened the gap.
Also this exponential boost to the IN along with ASW a/c deals with the US in the pipeline, allow it to discourage china from showing any adventurism in its (Indian) regional waters.
China has military assets in Myanmar(listening post),Bangladesh, and pakistan(joint naval base), and has been caught in territorial waters of other countries(Japan) before.
Also this gives India(along with the US) the ability to control/patrol the malacca shipping lanes and enforce a blockade of sorts on china's oil imports, if required.
China realising this, has started involving itself activelyin the central asian republics with the SCO and Iran to try and secure alternate routes for oil imports.

game on!


[edit on 12-9-2005 by Daedalus3]

India knows that Navy is what makes a major Supoer Power. Also India knows that if something ever should happen between them and CHina, it will not be land battles. It will be most sea and air. Navy cabablities is what will mean the most in that war.

Out,
Russian

2 Akula IIs. Russia only has at most 3 Akula IIs in service and I doubt they all go out for lease (come on, Russia's gotta keep one at least). Akula I/II are no match for even basic LA class SSNs as the FCS of Akulas sucked crap and they could only match the acoustic characteristics of LA class at slow speeds so they are even less of a match for improved LA class, Virginnia class and (why is this even here) Sea Wolf class. I'd like some "official" declaration too on this, a website with bollywood pop-up ads doesn't do it for me.

India is acquiring 2 more Kilos? Thats new, haven't heard of that.

Scorpenes sure are a lot more expensive than Kilos eh, they should be a lot better than the 877s that India has? 3 Bil for 6, Kilos are 1bil for 5 P636.

Wow that is good, i'm glad our allie India is developing more capabilites. Maybe we should work with them on alternative sub propulsion ideas, so they can stop relying on Russia to much.

India's the largest democracy in the world today. All I can say is good for them.

Now if this post were out and it was North Korea building up such a naval capability i'd be going...oh crap.

Wupy

Originally posted by blue cell
Wow that is good, i'm glad our allie India is developing more capabilites. Maybe we should work with them on alternative sub propulsion ideas, so they can stop relying on Russia to much.

Yes, it is a very good thing that other countries are starting to look after themselves, and no longer rely on the US to defend them. Now, that being said, I am not implying that India is one of those countries that rely on the US.

Congrats to the Indians, and I hope that they start thinking on buying more equipment from other countries. Also, they have a very good indigenous base for weapons procurement that they should not ignore.

Thats it for now, looking forward to more good news from other countries with a stake in their own defense.

Oh, and by the way, submarines don't generally run at high speeds, so being quite at low speed is a good thing. So what if they hear you coming in, its when you get there that matters.

Originally posted by COWlan
2 Akula IIs. Russia only has at most 3 Akula IIs in service and I doubt they all go out for lease (come on, Russia's gotta keep one at least). Akula I/II are no match for even basic LA class SSNs as the FCS of Akulas sucked crap and they could only match the acoustic characteristics of LA class at slow speeds so they are even less of a match for improved LA class, Virginnia class and (why is this even here) Sea Wolf class. I'd like some "official" declaration too on this, a website with bollywood pop-up ads doesn't do it for me.

India is acquiring 2 more Kilos? Thats new, haven't heard of that.

Scorpenes sure are a lot more expensive than Kilos eh, they should be a lot better than the 877s that India has? 3 Bil for 6, Kilos are 1bil for 5 P636.

Anyways, better than the americans or not, the IN fleet going to get some serious muscle and will be able to practice foreign policy in the deep reaches of the Indian Ocean..
Plus since the americans pose no threat as of now(indeed many of them on this post regard India as allies), the Indian navy can afford to conclude that nothing else can compete with it for supremacy in the Arabian Sea, bay of bengal and the Indian Ocean.
Makes you wonder, Is there oil in that ocean??

US sites claim that there are about 9 to 10 akulas in service..15 in 2010:

The active submarines of this class are in restricted service to conserve their remaining reactor core lives. There are at least eight Akula submarines currently operational, and by some estimates the number of Akulas in active service may be as great as eleven. At least three more units [and possibly as many as five] remain under construction, and their completion could bring the total inventory to as many as fifteen boats by 2010.

As of January 2003, Janes thought that 9 Akula were thought to be operational, and Periscope agreed as of August 2003.

There's another awesome hunter killer sub which is said to be in service.. don't know its name..ahh yes The Servodvinsk..2 already made, 5 in the works..
The Russians only produce kilos for export..they don't keep any

Official declaration on what.. the akulas..??
Well besides the fact that the nuke sub training centre for at least 300(maybe 600) Indian sailors has come up in Russia..Thats reported by local residents and that green world organisation, there is no official confirmation..
Also the fact that the local residents have seen Indians and the families occupying residential complexes in the region.
Again noted by Green world.
The russians have offered the akulas, the Indians were always wary abut the pricing..

The bollywood pop-up thing you're talking about is for the ATV(indigneous sub SSN) i suppose?
On that even I haven't heard much from local networks and so as I said it is rumored..
I'm calculating that if you train around 600 sailors in SSN ops then thats enough for almost 9-10 SSN crews..
All that just for nothing?? At least 2-4 Akulas seem very evident and thats still
a little short for 600 sailors..
Thats how the ATV speculations get more fodder..
Anyways India has operated a nuke sub leased from Russia in the late 80s (INS Chakra) and had started the ATV program in the early 90s..

As for the capabilities of the AKula II as compared to the LA and the seawolf
I gave a link on the very same in the pilot post..

An american site:
www.cdi.org...

First, only the "Improved Akula / Akula II and the new Severodvinsk SSNs have capabilities comparable with the U.S. Los Angeles and Seawolf attack submarines. All other Russian subs possess significantly weaker capabilities. (Source: Jane's Fighting Ships, 1996-1997)

According the global security, another american site:

www.globalsecurity.org...

The Project 971A Akula II incorporated an improved double layer silencing system for the power train.This variant had noise emissions that were roughly the level of a basic Los Angeles and that of the Improved Los Angeles at slow speeds

So what you said was wrong.. Its equivalent to the "improved LA" class at slow speeds, from the americans themselves

According to this Russian site (translation required) the akulaII /proj 971A are way better than the LA and comparable to the seawolf, at the same time being much cheaper than the seawolf..

mfit.ru...

Even China, which possesses already order obsolete APL of the type "khan'" (NEP), their possibilities are considerably lower. However, the newest Chinese multipurpose submarine of project 093 only is located in the stage of field testing, and it will prove to be a good "underwater hunter", thus far to say difficultly. But here Russian "sharks" their "teeth" already clearly demonstrated. Today they are some of that most perfected in the world, practically without in any way being inferior to American APL of the type "Sea Wolf" (about "Los Angeles" and to speak it does not be worthwhile) and even to some promising nuclear-powered ships of the following generation.

And here's more on the Indian ATV SSN..
Official confirmation is out of the question, its supp to be secret you know but if you don't like bollywood pop-up sites then maybe you'd be more comfortable with articles originating from the Paksitani media??!

www.dailytimes.com.pk...


[edit on 13-9-2005 by Daedalus3]

Originally posted by Daedalus3

India already has 10 (acquiring 2 more this year) kilo class/Project 636 submarines

they are 877EKM

The very term "official confirmation" is a joke. It translates into "whatever we can get the sheeple to believe." The whole idea behind winning a war is total surprise and overwhelming firepower. If the Indians really have these weapons, they are half way there. If they don't, they sure have a lot of people believing it. And if you can't have the overwhelming firepower, making others believe you do is just as effective!

Originally posted by COWlan
2 Akula IIs. Russia only has at most 3 Akula IIs in service and I doubt they all go out for lease (come on, Russia's gotta keep one at least). Akula I/II are no match for even basic LA class SSNs as the FCS of Akulas sucked crap and they could only match the acoustic characteristics of LA class at slow speeds so they are even less of a match for improved LA class, Virginnia class and (why is this even here) Sea Wolf class. I'd like some "official" declaration too on this, a website with bollywood pop-up ads doesn't do it for me.

India is acquiring 2 more Kilos? Thats new, haven't heard of that.

Scorpenes sure are a lot more expensive than Kilos eh, they should be a lot better than the 877s that India has? 3 Bil for 6, Kilos are 1bil for 5 P636.

That's not true. I know several guys that served on LAs and they all told me stories of them cruising along minding their own business and suddenly getting hit by sonar from an Akula I that snuck up on them. The first they knew about it was when the sonar started bouncing off their hull

[edit on 13-9-2005 by Zaphod58]

Originally posted by COWlan
2 Akula IIs. Russia only has at most 3 Akula IIs in service and I doubt they all go out for lease (come on, Russia's gotta keep one at least). Akula I/II are no match for even basic LA class SSNs as the FCS of Akulas sucked crap and they could only match the acoustic characteristics of LA class at slow speeds so they are even less of a match for improved LA class, Virginnia class and (why is this even here) Sea Wolf class. I'd like some "official" declaration too on this, a website with bollywood pop-up ads doesn't do it for me.

India is acquiring 2 more Kilos? Thats new, haven't heard of that.

Scorpenes sure are a lot more expensive than Kilos eh, they should be a lot better than the 877s that India has? 3 Bil for 6, Kilos are 1bil for 5 P636.

Before you post anymore crap like this look at the top of the main page.(Deny Ignorance). If you know nothing about military then please dont even post. Akula I and Akula II can more then compare to a basic LA class.

Also the Akulas that are going to India are not from the inventory. They are being built for India.

Out,
Russian

[edit on 13-9-2005 by Russian]

with respect to the new kilos and scorpenes, its official alright..
But when it comes to SSNs people/govts/countries tend to get a little sensitive.. Esp. when such goods are being purchased...
So its always better to keep the public/others guessing about this..
Unfortunately, leaks occur from least suspected sources, like in this case that green world anti-nuke org..
They did a bit of snooping at that Sosnovy Bor place, and lo!.. they found a whole new building setup to train 600 Indian sailors in SSN ops..
Asked the locals a bit and found out that many of these sailors have even moved into houses in the region with their families!
Now unless the Indian govt. has gone to great lengths to plant these stories,
this is as official as it will get..

And Zaphod58, what you say is true and this Russian link gives more instances..
Link given in my prev. two posts
excerpt:

Potryasayushche small noise level was achieved to a considerable extent due to the fact that all basic equipment and the battle posts of the submarine of razmestipi on the shock absorbers in the zone blocks. The latter are three-dimensional frame structures with the decks. And strictly by multistage rubber-cord dashpots blocks are isolated from the housing PL. The super-possibilities of Russian "sharks" allowed our submariners repeatedly "to be sat down on the tail" to atomic underwater strategic rocket carriers of the type "Ohio" - the pride of American ship building. For example, APL "Tigris" (K -154) under the command of captain OF THE I rank Aleksey burilichev revealed this underwater "nuclear terminator" and long time secretly it followed it, moreover in the region of the world ocean, which the Yankee was considered reliably covered their antisubmarine forces and facilities. Our commander obtained the title the "hero of Russia", and to many American keptenam and to Admirals were reached "pronunciations with the recording". By the way, another submarine of this type, "wolf" (K -461), in 1995-1996 achieved distant antisubmarine cover of Russian carrier-based group headed by TAVKR the "Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Kuznetsov".

here is what i think COWlan meant

Nonetheless, the American Improved Los Angeles class retained a decisive edge in silencing compared to the Akuka I. The Project 971A Akula II incorporated an improved double layer silencing system for the power train. According to Russian sources, this variant had noise emissions that were roughly the level of a basic Los Angeles and that of the Improved Los Angeles at slow speeds. At medium or high speeds the Improved Los Angeles design retains an acoustic advantage according to Russian sources. The Project 971 uses advanced sound insulation techniques that may not withstand Russian service conditions, and it may actually be noiser than earlier designs using more basic quieting technologies if poorly built or improperly maintained.

www.globalsecurity.org...


the link you gave Daedalus3 doesn't paint a pretty picture of the russian fleet.

this one
www.cdi.org...

yes.. true cw, but here we are not talking abt the shortcomings of the russian fleet minus akulas and soverdvinsk..
We're a talking about akulas and their capabilities as compared to US SSNs and SSBNs..

Yea I know what cowlan meant but it isn't necessarilty true, as Mr. beeblebrox(Zaphod58) and that russian exercept I quoted have pointed out..
Even Akula I has caused problems for the LA class subs according to recounts from zaphod's mates and such things are not posted on pro-american sites like globalsecurity..
Can't refute it when you hear from "the horse's mouth" can you?

Summary: Akulas aren't as sucky as compared to american counterparts..They may not be better but they're definitely not "much " worse..
Its funny how cowlan said seawolf isn't even worth comparing/mentioning due to superior capabilities while that russian link says the same with respect to comparing akulas and LA class SSNs..

COWlan:

Akula I/II are no match for even basic LA class SSNs as the FCS of Akulas sucked crap and they could only match the acoustic characteristics of LA class at slow speeds so they are even less of a match for improved LA class, Virginnia class and (why is this even here) Sea Wolf class.

Russian link:

But here Russian "sharks" their "teeth" already clearly demonstrated. Today they are some of that most perfected in the world, practically without in any way being inferior to American APL of the type "Sea Wolf" (about "Los Angeles" and to speak it does not be worthwhile) and even to some promising nuclear-powered ships of the following generation.

They both use the similar phrases in drastically different terms..
Shows how much opinions differ round the world aye?!

Daedalus3 look at my post above. its a quote from global about the Akula

its very interesting that the russians sent one of these subs to the chiense-russian peace mission exercise.

china a potential buyer?

practically everything there was for sale

yesss.. I know..I read that.. All i'm saying is personal sailors accounts on "actually" how stealthy a sub is aren't put on sites like globalsec..
They only come from word of mouth, like the zaphod recount and the one from that russian link..Hero of the Soviet union for tailing a Ohio class w/o being detected..
real life experiences count much more than spec-ridden sites...
I'm sure you'd agree with that too..

did they send an akula?? ..hmm..
interesting.. Though I'm still not "buying"(pun intended) the fact taht everything on that exercise was for sale..really..
How much did they ask for all those russian commandos??1800 of em' right?


EDIT: yup they sent an akula..Not a brand new one..wonder if it was a mkI or a mkII??
external image

hey what'dya know maybe indian and chinese sailors are trainig at that center together!!
that'd put a fish in peoples pants..

[edit on 13-9-2005 by Daedalus3]

[edit on 13-9-2005 by Daedalus3]

[edit on 13-9-2005 by Daedalus3]

maybe its for training purposes. simulating a LA class sub.

they have around the same nosie level.

those russian commados were helping china train our paratroopers

Daedalus3 can you post a source or link to the akula sale.

i want to see the time frame of this

Originally posted by Daedalus3


Yea I know what cowlan meant but it isn't necessarilty true, as Mr. beeblebrox(Zaphod58) and that russian exercept I quoted have pointed out..
Even Akula I has caused problems for the LA class subs according to recounts from zaphod's mates and such things are not posted on pro-american sites like globalsecurity..
Can't refute it when you hear from "the horse's mouth" can you?

LOL, the horse mouth. Everyone posts links about how inferior the Akula II is and you dispute them. Someone says, " they know someone " , which is probably BS anyway and you take it as fact.
As the motto here says Deny Ignorance