Psalms prophesies

Never heard of it before this, so I did a search and found plenty of places to say it's not a problem. One of them is this one
www.lifeofchrist.com...

How could you have read the Bible and not heard of it? Anyhow, here is my response. Hopefully this time it will sink in.

From the website.

*Jehoiakim was a king of Israel. He angered G-d by burning a scroll that Jeremiah the prophet wrote. G-d cursed Jehoiakim by indicating that none of his children would sit on the throne of David (Jeremiah 36:29-31). And although Jehoiakim had children, scripture shows that none of them ever reigned as King David had.

*Joseph, the father of Jesus, was one of Jehoiakim's descendants (through Jeconiah). Joseph's offspring could not claim David's throne because of the curse. Jesus laid claim to the throne of David (Luke 1:32, Acts 2:30, Hebrews 12:2). If Jesus had been born of Joseph, the curse would have been contradicted.

*As explained above, Joseph was excluded from being the genetic father of the future king of Israel.

*G-d created a solution through the miracle of the virgin birth. Although Joseph was one of Jehoiakim's offspring (through Solomon), Mary was not. She was a descendant of Nathan, one of David's other sons (Luke 3:31). G-d's promise to David was fulfilled because Mary was the biological parent of Jesus.

From your own scriptures, "And not to occupy themselves with myths and endless genealogies that promote speculation rather than the divine training that is known by faith." I Timothy 1.4. Why is that scripture there? Why isn't this practiced? The genealogies are laid out which do nothing but debunk Jesus' claim to the throne. In Jeremiah G-d says that will raise up a king through David. Psalm 89.34 says that "My covenant will I not break...His seed shall endure for ever and his throne as the sun before me." I Chronicles 22.9, "...for his name shall be Solomon....and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever." Here we see that the descendant will be of King David but more specifically David's son Solomon. Jeremiah 22 the curse is placed upon Jeconiah..."for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah." Now all descendants of Jeconiah are gone, poof, vanished. The curse is binding. His throne was passed to Zedekiah, his uncle. Zerubbabel held power granted by G-d but was never a king. So in Matthew 1:1, he made the mistake of listing Jeconiah and then goes on to the virgin birth which is a misuse of Isaiah. Like I said earlier, tribal heritage is given through the father. Numbers 1.2 Take ye the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, after the house of their fathers, with the number of their names, every male by their polls. See? After the house of their fathers. House being tribe. Numbers 1.18 And they assembled all the congregation together on the first day of the second month and they declared their pedigrees after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years and upward, by their polls. Again, the house of their fathers. So if G-d had a part in this virgin birth to force the throne, G-d would be violating his covenant with us. The throne would be taken from David as G-d has no tribal heritage and does not come from David. If you wanted to take Luke's version of the genealogy, he's ruled out there too as Solomon is missing and Jesus is brought down through Nathan which is not the requirement for the moshiach. Also that genealogy specifically says Joseph. So let me sum it up for you.

If Jesus was born of a virgin, he has no claim to the throne of David.
If you trace Jesus through Matthew and he was adopted perhaps, you have the curse of Jeconiah.
If you trace him through Luke, he's not attached to Solomon.

All of this equals....disqualification. And G-d's covenant in Psalms stands.

Originally posted by Shonet1430
From your own scriptures,

Matthew 3:9, Luke 3:8

whose your messiah?

Shalom!

the book of psalms........
quote/

Is any among you afflicted?
Let him pray.
Is any merry?
Let him sing psalms. (James. 5:13)

James.5:14)
/Is any sick among you?
let him call the elders of the church;and let them pray over him,
anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:


Our natures weakened, but girded with strength from above, folding our hands in a cross, with the staff of prayer, we will hasten to the chalice. "It is the Lord's Passover!" (Exodus, 12:11).

the "Word was made Flesh and dwelt among us" (John 1:14),

is the eye which enlighteneth every man's conscience; it giveth man knowledge. For, as the prophet says, If ye will not believe, ye shall not understand. Isa. vii. 9; Cyr. Cat. v.

the prophecy of Isaiah: But all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the Prophet, saying: Behold a Virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which, being interpreted, is, God with us. Matt. i. 22, 23.

tserkovnost.org...

“When Thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand. He shall see the travail of His soul, and shall be satisfied: by His knowledge shall My righteous servant justify many; for He shall bear their iniquities. There will I divide Him a portion with the great, and He shall divide the spoil with the strong” (Is. 53:10-12). In other words, the Messiah after death will come to life, in order to head the Kingdom of the righteous and will be morally satisfied with the results of His ordeals.

King David also predicted the resurrection of Christ in his 16th psalm, in which in the voice of Christ it says: “I have set the Lord always before me: because He is at my right hand, I shall not be moved. Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in Thy presence is fulness of joy; at Thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore” (Ps. 16:8-11). In the prophet Hosea there is a mention of a three-day resurrection, although the wording in this prophecy is in the plural: “Come and let us return unto the Lord: for He hath torn, and He will heal us; He hath smitten, and He will bind us up. After two days will He revive us: in the third day He will raise us up, and we shall live in His sight” (Hosea 6:1-2, see 1 Cor. 15:4).

Besides the direct prophecies about the immortality of the Messiah, in fact, all those places in the Old Testament, in which the Messiah is called God, attest to this (for example in Ps. 2, Ps. 45, Ps. 110, Is. 9:6, Jer. 23:5, Mic. 5:2, Mal. 3:1).

www.orthodoxphotos.com...

IX
helen
Christ is Risen!
He truly is Risen!



[edit on 6/7/2005 by helen670]

Matthew 3:9, Luke 3:8

whose your messiah?

Mine has not come yet.

Originally posted by Shonet1430

Matthew 3:9, Luke 3:8

whose your messiah?

Mine has not come yet.

are you sure?

are you sure?

I'm positive. Nothing has been fulfilled and I'm still in Atlanta, GA instead of Israel.

Originally posted by Shonet1430

are you sure?

I'm positive. Nothing has been fulfilled and I'm still in Atlanta, GA instead of Israel.

Then you are waiting?

What do you wait for to be fullfilled? Will you only believe in the messiah when he brings you to Israel? Would you not also believe in him if he were to promise you that he will bring you to Israel?

Psalm 80
1Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth.

Who is this Shepherd of Israel?

Vs. 17
17Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself.

Is not this strong man your messiah?

Then you are waiting?

Indeed. Am I holding my breath? No.

What do you wait for to be fullfilled? Will you only believe in the messiah when he brings you to Israel? Would you not also believe in him if he were to promise you that he will bring you to Israel?

All messianic prophecies...the Jewish ones. Part of those is an ingathering of Jews where we will all decide together that it is the "one." And no to the last question. If that were the case, then some of the leaders of Christian churches could be him! They will buy me a plane ticket to Israel!!!

Psalm 80
1Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth.

Who is this Shepherd of Israel?

Verse one....For the leader; on shoshannim, eduth. Of Asaph. A psalm. The KJV left these parts out which is why the numbering is wrong on most Psalms. Shoshannim....lillies Ps 45.1, Ps 60.1. Asaph Ps 73.1.

Vs. 17
17Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself.

Verse 17 is For it is burned by fire and cut down, perishing before Your angry blast. Since the numbering is off, we'll go to verse 18.

Is not this strong man your messiah?

No. Let's look at other passages.

Psalms 80:9,[8] – (9) You uprooted a vine from Egypt; You drove out nations and planted it.

Psalms 80.15-16[14-15] O G-d of Hosts, return now; look from heaven and see, and be mindful of this vine, And of the stock [of vine] that Your right hand has planted, and over the son You have strengthened for Yourself.

G-d is being asked to protect Israel as Israel is the vine.

Jeremiah 2:21 - Yet I planted you a noble vine stock, entirely of right seed; now how have you turned yourself into a degenerate wild vine to Me?

Israel is also G-d's son.

Exodus 4:22 - And you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus said the L-rd, "Israel is My son, My firstborn."

Isaiah shows how G-d chose Israel and strengthened them.

Isaiah 41:8-10 – (8) But you, Israel My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham, who loved Me, (9) Whom I grasped from the ends of the earth, and from its nobles I called you, and I said to you, "You are My servant"; I chose you and I did not despise you. (10) Do not fear for I am with you; be not discouraged for I am your G-d: I strengthened you, I even helped you, I even supported you with My righteous hand.

So verse 18 for real, 17 your way is a prayer for Israel to regain favor with G-d.

There are two terms in that verse that have the same meaning....iysh and ben-adam. Iysh is man and ben-adam son of Adam. The KJV translators knew this as can be seen in Job 16.21 where the Hebrew says ben-adam and it says man. In Psalms 89.48[47 for you] uses b'nei adam which is plural and the translators use men. So in Psalms 80.18, son of man was chosen in lieu of just man.

Shalom!

Sholem aleykham

I'm truly not following all of the snipped hodgepodge. Let's go verse by verse here.

(Verse 10 well part of it anyhow)“When Thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.

Transliteration....And the L-rd wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul would acknowledge guilt, he shall have descendants [or, he shall see progeny], he shall prolong his days, and G-d's purpose shall prosper in his hand.

In Hebrew, the word IF is key. Why it was changed to when is beyond me. This statement is conditional following a declaration of G-d punishing the servant. If this happens, then this will be the result. If his soul acknowledges guilt, then he shall see his kids, live long and prosper. The Christian version changes things. It's more of a when you do this, this will happen. It's an inevitable occurrence. The word asham is the problem which is used in Numbers 6.12 and Leviticus 5.15 which talks about the guilt offering that is used when we commit a sin intentionally. However it is also used as in Jeremiah 51.5 and Proverbs 14.9 as the sin committed with intent. Therefore, in Judaism, it's impossible for someone to bring themselves as a guilt offering. See Genesis 18.26 and Jeremiah 18.8 for more if/then statements. Ok so to recap, in the Hebrew, if the servant does this, the reward will be such.

(Verse 11)He shall see the travail of His soul, and shall be satisfied: by His knowledge shall My righteous servant justify many; for He shall bear their iniquities.

From the toil of his soul he shall see [and he shall] be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant will vindicate the righteous before the multitudes, and their iniquities he shall carry.

Notice that word righteous has been misplaced. The servant isn't righteous in the Hebrew but will justify them. Our moshiach will not be sinless which is the how the Christians use the term righteous. However the servant will understand that G-d has a purpose for all that he allows and will not challenge G-d. The servant will vindicate so to speak through knowledge of both G-d and the Torah which can be seen again and again when referring to Israel being a light unto the nations and us teaching them (Exod 19:5-6; Is 42:6, 60:3, 61:6-9; Zech 8:13, 23). In Isaiah 53.4, Israel is the one who suffered the penalties for others. The Jews have been forced to carry it all because of direct actions of all other throughout history. We have suffered and will continue to suffer.

(Verse 12, well half of it)There will I divide Him a portion with the great, and He shall divide the spoil with the strong” (Is. 53:10-12).

Therefore, I will allot him a portion among the multitudes, and with the mighty he shall share booty, because he has bared his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and he will [continue to] intercede for the transgressors.

Nice of you to leave out the last part where it shows a change in tense. But this one verse outside of that is decent. Here is the ending...because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. This verse foretells that the Jews, as G-d's servant, will be rewarded for all that we have carried and for not forsaking our faith and following anyone other than Him. Like Ezekiel said, "And the tree of the field will give forth its fruit and the land will give forth its produce, and they will know that I am the L-rd when I break the bars of their yoke and rescue them from those who enslave them. And they will no longer be a prey to the nations, and the beasts of the earth will not devour them, and they will dwell securely, with no one frightening them. And I shall establish for them a plantation for renown, and they will no longer be hidden because of hunger in the land, and they will no longer bear the disgrace of the nations. And they will know that I, the L-rd their G-d, am with them, and they are My people, the house of Israel," says the L-rd G-d. Ezekiel 34:27-30

In other words, the Messiah after death will come to life, in order to head the Kingdom of the righteous and will be morally satisfied with the results of His ordeals.

Israel is the servant. Jews are the servant. I am the servant.

King David also predicted the resurrection of Christ in his 16th psalm, in which in the voice of Christ it says: “I have set the Lord always before me: because He is at my right hand, I shall not be moved. Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in Thy presence is fulness of joy; at Thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore” (Ps. 16:8-11).

Not a messianic prophecy. Verse one says A Michtam of David so we know that David is the writer. Why is it that only 4 verses are messianic? Psalms 16:4 - May the sorrows of those who hasten after another [deity] increase; I will not pour their libations of blood, nor will I take their names upon my lips. David is condemning people who follow other gods. Also, please note, there is no "hell" in Judaism so that should lead you to understand at least one flaw in the translation. It's a grave. David is speaking of his own soul. "For You will not abandon me to Sheol." He also says "or let Your faithful one see the Pit." Where did corruption come from? Oh never mind. It's a corruption! Seriously though, the pit is also a grave. David used the two different terms for poetic reasons. Solomon says the same...Ecclesiastes 12:7 - And the dust returns to the earth as it was; and the spirit returns to G-d who gave it. David ends his psalm with asking G-d to show him the way of life so that he can sit at the right hand of G-d as shown in Psalm 110.

In the prophet Hosea there is a mention of a three-day resurrection, although the wording in this prophecy is in the plural: “Come and let us return unto the Lord: for He hath torn, and He will heal us; He hath smitten, and He will bind us up. After two days will He revive us: in the third day He will raise us up, and we shall live in His sight” (Hosea 6:1-2, see 1 Cor. 15:4).

This is not a resurrection but a healing by G-d. In verses 6.1-7.16, G-d is reluctant to hear the people's appeal and we see further condemnations of the monarchic Israel and Judah.

Besides the direct prophecies about the immortality of the Messiah, in fact, all those places in the Old Testament, in which the Messiah is called God, attest to this (for example in Ps. 2, Ps. 45, Ps. 110, Is. 9:6, Jer. 23:5, Mic. 5:2, Mal. 3:1).

The moshiach is NOT G-d. He is not a god. He will be our earthly king, leader, rabbi.

Psalm 2-David is the moshiach?

'And when the Philistines heard that David was anointed king over Israel, all the Philistines went up to seek David; and David heard of it, and went down to the fortress.' (2 Sam 5:17)."

Psalm 89:21-22[20-21]– I found David My servant; I anointed him with My holy oil. With whom My hand will be established; even My arm will strengthen him.

Psalms 2:7 – I will tell of the decree; The L-rd said to me, "You are My son [(beni)]; this day have I begotten you."

2 Samuel 7:14 - I will be to him a father, and he shall be to Me a son; so that when he goes astray I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with afflictions of human beings.

Psalms 89:27-28[26-27] – "He will call to Me, 'You are my Father, my G-d, and the Rock of my salvation.' Also I will make him a firstborn, highest of the kings of the earth."

Psalm 45-This is the only messianic one possible out of your list. However there are problems with it. The covenant made with G-d shows that the throne is everlasting and is through Solomon. Jesus through Luke's genealogy comes by way of Nathan which is not Solomon. Also, in Matthew's he comes by way of Jeconiah which is cursed. Rules are rules.

Psalm 110-David again!

Isaiah 9.6-Hezekiah

2 Chronicles 30:2 - And the king took counsel [(va'yiva'etz)] with his officers and the entire congregation in Jerusalem, to celebrate the Passover in the second month.

2 Chronicles 32:3 - And he [Hezekiah] took counsel (va'yiva'etz) with his officers and his mighty men to stop up the waters of the fountains that were outside the city, and they assisted him.

2 Chronicles 30:8 – "With him [Sannheriv] is an arm of flesh; and with us is the L-rd our G-d to help us and to fight our wars." And the people relied on the words of Hezekiah, king of Judah.

2 Chronicles 32:20-22 – And King Hezekiah and the Prophet, Isaiah the son of Amoz, prayed concerning this, and they cried out to Heaven. And the L-rd sent an angel, and he destroyed every mighty warrior and commander and officer in the camp of the king of Assyria, and he [Sannheriv] returned in shame to his land, and he entered the temple of his god, and some of his own offspring felled him there with the sword. And the L-rd saved Hezekiah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem from the hand of Sannheriv, the king of Assyria, and from the hand of all others, and guided them on every side.

2 Kings 20:19 - Then said Hezekiah to Isaiah, "Good is the Word of the L-rd which you have spoken." And he said [to himself], "Is it not so, if there will be peace and truth in my days?"

Was your "prince of peace peaceful?"
Matthew 10:34-37(KJV) – Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Luke 14:26-27(KJV) – If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Jeremiah 23.5 "See, a time is coming--declares the L-rd--when I will raise up a true branch of David's line. He shall reign as king and shall prosper, and he shall do what is just and right in the land." How is this Jesus being called G-d? Also, thanks to the curse and shown above by me already, Jesus would not be a part of the 'true branch of David.'

Micah 5.2 "Truly He will leave them [helpless] Until she who is to bear has borne, Then the rest of his countrymen Shall return to the children of Israel." How is this Jesus being called G-d? G-d isn't even in that verse. Also, 5.1 is a reference to David...from Bethlehem in Judah.

Malachi 3.1 "Behold, I am sending My messenger to clear the way before Me, and the L-rd whom you seek shall come to His Temple suddenly. As for the angel of the covenant that you desire, he is already coming." The irony behind this is that malakhi is Hebrew for messenger. Is the messenger himself or Elijah as in verse 23?

Originally posted by Shonet1430.
Psalms 80:9,[8] – (9) You uprooted a vine from Egypt; You drove out nations and planted it.

Could you not suppose that the messiah will uproot a vine from Egypt? (fut. tense?)

Psalms 80.15-16[14-15] O G-d of Hosts, return now; look from heaven and see, and be mindful of this vine, And of the stock [of vine] that Your right hand has planted, and over the son You have strengthened for Yourself.

Could you not also suppose that the G-d of Hosts will return in the form of a man who bears his name (ps 118:26), and is mindful of his vine and cause it to return to its proper restingplace?

Isaiah 41:8-10 – (9) Whom I grasped from the ends of the earth,

Would not the messiah push G-d's people back to the land of Israel from the ends of the earth?

Who is this person?

Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall:
The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him:
But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel

Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:
The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.

or this person?

His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to(I say "from") the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh.

or what about this person?

And their nobles shall be of themselves, and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them; and I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me: for who is this that engaged his heart to approach unto me? saith the LORD.

or this?

Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

Could any of these persons be your messiah?

Could you not suppose that the messiah will uproot a vine from Egypt? (fut. tense?)

No. It's not future tense. He uprooted his vine from Egypt. It's called Moses and the Exodus. He planted it in Israel. It's that simple.

Could you not also suppose that the G-d of Hosts will return in the form of a man who bears his name (ps 118:26), and is mindful of his vine and cause it to return to its proper restingplace?

No. "May he who enters be blessed in the name of the L-rd; we bless you from the House of the L-rd." How does this say anything about the G-d of hosts returning, returning in the form of a man, a man bearing his name, that is mindulf of hid vine and returns it to the proper resting place?

Would not the messiah push G-d's people back to the land of Israel from the ends of the earth?

The Jews must be gathered so that the messiah can be decided upon by all Jews. We will come from the ends of the earth.

Who is this person?

The first is Joseph...son of Jacob and Rachel.
The second is Moses blessing the tribes of Israel, in particular Joseph.
The Jews during the rebuilding of Jerusalem.
Either Malachi or Elijah.

Could any of these persons be your messiah?

No. Why? Oh well let's see. There is no world peace. There is no universal knowledge of G-d. The Temple has not been built. Death has not ceased. The dead are not resurrected. Jews are not in Israel being supported by other nations materially and being sought for spiritual guidance. Eternal joy and gladness does not characterize the Jewish Nation. All weapons of war have not been destroyed. The enemy has not been buried. The Egyptian river has not run dry. The trees in Israel do not produce new fruits every month. The tribes have not received their inheritance. Wars have not ceased.

Originally posted by Shonet1430
The Jews must be gathered so that the messiah can be decided upon by all Jews. We will come from the ends of the earth.

how true.

There is no world peace.

Do you suppose world peace will establish the messiah or vice versa?
And how do you suppose that will look?

There is no universal knowledge of G-d.

How do you think this will be accomplished?

The Temple has not been built.

Do you suppose that animal sacrifice could be established without the temple? I mean, just having the altar built. There's no mention of a temple being built in daniel 9, is there?

Death has not ceased.

Will death ceased before the messiah appears or will he appear first and establish a no death policy?

The dead are not resurrected.

same question.

Jews are not in Israel being supported by other nations materially and being sought for spiritual guidance.

This is true. But how do you know that what you think is the land of Israel is indeed the land of Israel? What if it is somewhere else? Is this possible? Please try to be objective.

Eternal joy and gladness does not characterize the Jewish Nation. All weapons of war have not been destroyed.

Indeed.

The enemy has not been buried.

Indeed.

The Egyptian river has not run dry.

Indeed. But is it possible that the direction of exodus travel could be reversed?

The trees in Israel do not produce new fruits every month.

Indeed.

The tribes have not received their inheritance.

How can they fit all that land that they are promised into the tiny plot of land they call Israel? Unless of course you suggest they encompass more territry form the river of Egypt to the river Euphrates.

Wars have not ceased.

They will.

Do you suppose world peace will establish the messiah or vice versa?
And how do you suppose that will look?

We Jews are supposed to do our part on a daily basis to usher in the messianic age. It's sort of like, the world isn't ready so his time hasn't come yet. So the moshiach will establish piece as there is still one bit of unsettled business...the war of Gog and Magog. That won't be peaceful.

How do you think this will be accomplished? (The universal knowledge of G-d)

By looking over all messianic prophecies, I think the part about Jews being sought for spiritual guidance will consolidate all. And no, before anyone thinks it, I don't mean everyone will be Jewish.

Do you suppose that animal sacrifice could be established without the temple? I mean, just having the altar built. There's no mention of a temple being built in daniel 9, is there?

No animal sacrifices will not be established without the Temple. We have 101 laws regarding sacrifices and the initial one is that the firstlings must be brought to the sanctuary. If we can't bring one, we can't sacrifice more. As for Daniel 9, he is reinterpreting Jeremiah's prophecy of 70 weeks. 22"He made me understand by speaking to me and saying, "Daniel, I have just come forth to give you understanding." Then Daniel goes on to the Maccabeean revolt. "For half a week he will put a stop to the sacrifice and meal offering. At the corner of the altar will be an appalling abomination..." Sacrifices were stopped, the altar was desecrated by pig sacrifice and an idol of Zeus.

Will death ceased before the messiah appears or will he appear first and establish a no death policy?

Death will not cease before he appears. Him not dying would be a pretty clear cut sign that the right choice was made!

same question.

Same answer.

This is true. But how do you know that what you think is the land of Israel is indeed the land of Israel? What if it is somewhere else? Is this possible? Please try to be objective.

G-d doesn't change. His word doesn't change. Again, he told us what we need to know in Isaiah. He left no stone unturned. Israel it is.

Indeed. But is it possible that the direction of exodus travel could be reversed?

Same answer above.

How can they fit all that land that they are promised into the tiny plot of land they call Israel? Unless of course you suggest they encompass more territry form the river of Egypt to the river Euphrates.

It said we will receive. It didn't say we have to stay. I'm not cut out for desert heat!

Originally posted by Shonet1430
By looking over all messianic prophecies, I think the part about Jews being sought for spiritual guidance will consolidate all.

By how can the Jew guide unless he/she be guided?
Will not they both fall into a ditch?

No animal sacrifices will not be established without the Temple. We have 101 laws regarding sacrifices and the initial one is that the firstlings must be brought to the sanctuary.

A sanctuary can be separate from a temple building.
And what a sanctuary it will be!

As for Daniel 9, he is reinterpreting Jeremiah's prophecy of 70 weeks. 22"He made me understand by speaking to me and saying, "Daniel, I have just come forth to give you understanding." Then Daniel goes on to the Maccabeean revolt. "For half a week he will put a stop to the sacrifice and meal offering. At the corner of the altar will be an appalling abomination..." Sacrifices were stopped, the altar was desecrated by pig sacrifice and an idol of Zeus.

So, Daniel 9 is history. Hmm, why is there no end of sins, everlasting righteousness as promised in verse 24? I'll even give you 3.5 years after the Cyrus decree. Still, no everlasting righteousness, end of sins. hmmm.

This is true. But how do you know that what you think is the land of Israel is indeed the land of Israel? What if it is somewhere else? Is this possible? Please try to be objective.

G-d doesn't change. His word doesn't change. Again, he told us what we need to know in Isaiah. He left no stone unturned. Israel it is.

He told you, but you're weren't listening. Isaiah never mentions Moriah. He floods his writings with Zion. And these stones will be pleasureable.
What you think is Israel is detestable to the L-ord.

It said we will receive. It didn't say we have to stay.

I'm not cut out for desert heat!

Again, let's quote Isaiah, shall we? "streams in the desert...."

G-d bless you.(I hope I get blessed by saying this.)

[edit on 8-6-2005 by CyrusTheShepherd]

By how can the Jew guide unless he/she be guided?
Will not they both fall into a ditch?

We will be guided...by our Jewish moshiach.

A sanctuary can be separate from a temple building.
And what a sanctuary it will be!

I'm sure you've been quite busy building it.

So, Daniel 9 is history. Hmm, why is there no end of sins, everlasting righteousness as promised in verse 24? I'll even give you 3.5 years after the Cyrus decree. Still, no everlasting righteousness, end of sins. hmmm.

The interpretation is based on the word shav'uim and shiv'im, the first meaning weeks and the second meaning seventy. Since this is a REinterpretation of Jeremiah BY Daniel, we can see that this prophecy was fulfilled by Judas Maccabee in 164 BCE.

He told you, but you're weren't listening. Isaiah never mentions Moriah. He floods his writings with Zion. And these stones will be pleasureable.
What you think is Israel is detestable to the L-ord.
He told you, but you're weren't listening. Isaiah never mentions Moriah. He floods his writings with Zion. And these stones will be pleasureable.
What you think is Israel is detestable to the L-ord.

I told you and you weren't listening. Moriah is in Zion and I'm not talking mountains here. The tree in the hole and the hole in the ground and the green grass grows all around all around and the green grass grows all around. If the land was detestable to G-d, he wouldn't have given it. Jews have been living there since Joshua. They have been pushed out and in out and in. Now again, are you listening? Moriah is in Zion and I'm not talking mountains here. The tree in the hole and the hole in the ground and the green grass grows all around all around and the green grass grows all around. If the land was detestable to G-d, he wouldn't have given it. Jews have been living there since Joshua. They have been pushed out and in out and in.

Again, let's quote Isaiah, shall we? "streams in the desert...."

And? There is no water in Israel? No water at all in the promised land? I suppose you better read the directions again.

G-d bless you.(I hope I get blessed by saying this.)

Honestly, I hope you don't. G-d knows your heart and knows that your blessing comes in vain. G-d won't bless those that lead us astray. He punishes them with death. Extra Extra Read All About It! Good thing I know how to protect myself! An even better thing is that you'll never land a true Jew but G-d help the other poor souls you may attract.

Originally posted by Shonet1430
We will be guided...by our Jewish moshiach.

(snicker)

I'm sure you've been quite busy building it.

(snicker, snicker)

The interpretation is based on the word shav'uim and shiv'im, the first meaning weeks and the second meaning seventy. Since this is a REinterpretation of Jeremiah BY Daniel, we can see that this prophecy was fulfilled by Judas Maccabee in 164 BCE.

(snicker, snicker, snicker)

Jews have been living there since Joshua.

Perhaps the lost ones were, but there is no evidence that ANY of the cities of Judah were located in the plot of land you call your homeland.

Moriah is in Zion and I'm not talking mountains here.

Moriah is in ruins and is history. Zion's casing will be restored to excell in it's former beauty.

There is no water in Israel? No water at all in the promised land? I suppose you better read the directions again.

Are you referring to the 'cursed' land when you say 'promised'?
Because I think you're a little confused.

G-d bless you.(I hope I get blessed by saying this.)

Honestly, I hope you don't.

Well at least you're being honest.
By the way, as long as you're being honest.
Why don't you post a picture of yourself for us all to see?
You've seen mine...


I'd like to see who I'm getting emotionally involved with.
Besides, I think its a little discrediting for members on ATS to go anonymous. Remove the mask and fight like ahhh, well, fight anyway.

G-d knows your heart and knows that your blessing comes in vain.

Ooops. I think you just made an oxymoron. True, he knows my heart, but you don't, so for you to conclude that you do by saying that my blessing comes in vain is for you to conclude that you TOO, like G-d, know my heart. Wrong move Aime.

I'll try it again.
G-d bless you.
I'll hang up and wait for your response. But it probably won't be today because it is the Sabbath and you are required not to work today.

Me, on the other hand, I'll work on the Sabbath because this ox is quite heavy and needs to get out of the ditch as soon as possible.

G-d won't bless those that lead us astray. He punishes them with death.

Now that's just mean. I assume you're waiting for me to die because of my misguiding attempt on your salvation. Well, sorry Aime, but according to Deut. 13, YOU are the ones who has to throw the stones to kill me. Don't just wait around for G-d to do it. It is YOUR responsibility.

And remember, if you do not kill me, you are breaking His law.

tsk, tsk, tsk.

Thatis the firsttime that I have ever heard about that,itsgot a lot of things right. Is this giving us a hint about the correct Religion? It may be.

Originally posted by speight89
Thatis the firsttime that I have ever heard about that,itsgot a lot of things right. Is this giving us a hint about the correct Religion? It may be.

Yes.

The dam has begun to rift.