Otto von Bismarck about Russia and Ukraine

a reply to: Asktheanimals

I didn’t think the mongols took Russia ? Or Poland , guessing Poland was a very long time ago?

a reply to: GogolJoker

Well, you got me there, sort of, although I'd say that Russians needed to be reigned in by coercion for the longest time and that Russia could only be ruled by strong leaders who sometimes had to beat Russians into shape.

The important question is, has the Russian developed an ability to think for himself as a result of having to put up with tyrants for so long?

Why not if given a chance?
If the Polish can think for themselves in spite of being oppressed by tyrants for so long, then the Russians can too. It takes some time to build democracy, it's preceded by the transient period of chaos and poverty (like it was here and other post-Soviet countries in the early nineties) but it was worth enduring because afterwards it got only better. Russia unfortunately wasted its chance and went back to the past.

Btw if power got into the hands of the opposition, then they would soon become the oppressors. Or they wouldn't know what to do with sudden freedom/power. It has always been so. The opposition is not really an organic one, it has the backing of the West.

I was thinking about someone like Nemtsov or Navalny. Didn't look like oppressors to me.

a reply to: Kurokage

He didn't have to know it's fake. Those quotes are all over the net. There are several others wrongly attributed to Bismarck. You would have to check each one. Besides, that fake quote post gave rise to an interesting discussion.

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originally posted by: twistedpuppy
a reply to: GogolJoker
Why not if given a chance? If the Polish can think for themselves in spite of being oppressed by tyrants for so long, then the Russians can too.

I believe the ending of The Killing Joke applies here. The West is supposedly shining a beacon for Russians, but the latter doesn't want to take the next step, they're worried that the West will turn it off mid-way. They saw what happened in the 1990s when they let the West in, they don't want to see another repeat of it.

originally posted by: twistedpuppy
I was thinking about someone like Nemtsov or Navalny. Didn't look like oppressors to me.

I'm afraid I don't know enough about Nemtsov to offer any meaningful input.

As for Navalny, I have studied him. I don't believe he could've actually pulled it off, although WanderingMrM believes he could've done so.

I was informed by one of my Russian associates that Navalny lacked leadership qualities, but he showed great charisma, used strong words, knew how to attract people. He said: Navalny is a populist, but he was a bad politician and leader. He overestimated his popularity.
His description corresponds to what Molotov said about Lazar Kaganovich: "A great organizer and a fine public speaker... He was a good organizer and agitator, though he floundered on questions of theory."

Also, I have in mind King Louis XVI: "he overestimated popular support for the traditional monarchy." en.wikipedia.org... Similarly, Navalny was a believer in liberal values and democratic ideals, and while he could momentarily persuade the public to get behind them, it wouldn't have been enough to carry him to victory.

Besides, I've long had the impression Russians don't want a democracy, they want strong, competent leaders.

“The Russian masses would like, of course, a benign and understanding ruling hand, but they have no patience with a weak or vacillating one–and, incidentally, no desire to replace it with a popular democracy, for which they have neither the example nor the understanding.” (George Kennan, 1986)

This observation was drawn a few years before the Soviet collapse. I think there is still validity to the truth of this statement. After the Belgorod and Moscow tragedies, some Russians seem to be getting fed up with Putin's inaction, although other Russians think he's just waiting for something, being patient, showing restraint.
_____

At any rate, there have been two concurrent predictions about new seemingly flawless democractic systems emerging, one from Russia, the other from Germany. Both share a similarity in that the leader is elected in public gatherings and will be travelling throughout the land, to familiarize himself with the people's customs and way of life. But only one system can be right, and the winner will be a model for the nations to pattern their democracies on.

a reply to: GogolJoker

Besides, I've long had the impression Russians don't want a democracy, they want strong, competent leaders.

Whats wrong with wanting and having both?

a reply to: GogolJoker

The West is supposedly shining a beacon for Russians, but the latter doesn't want to take the next step, they're worried that the West will turn it off mid-way. They saw what happened in the 1990s when they let the West in, they don't want to see another repeat of it.

I read several articles about Yeltsin's rule, which listed nearly a dozen reasons why democracy failed in Russia or rather why Russia has never become democracy. And I kept scratching my head because those articles described point by point what was happening in Poland in the early nineties; corruption, incompetent governments, infighting between politicians, savage privatization, impoverishment of society, the most important political and business offices remaining in the hands of communists, political chaos etc. And in spite of this, Poland didn't become a dictatorship. Later its political and economic situation improved but not due to some strong leader but due to the successful transformation from socialism to capitalism.

I remember when communists got back to power, everyone thought that the old times of communism would return but they didn't. The communists called themselves the Left and started advocating freedom for LGBT, abortion for all etc. They became fervent defenders of democracy and women rights. It was hilarious. Nobody was thinking about limiting free press, imprisoning the opposition or turning the clock back.

I really don't see much difference between Poland in the early nineties and Russia in the early nineties. There were the same problems and struggles.

So I really think it's just Putin who killed the emerging democracy there like you kill the baby in the mother's womb.

I was informed by one of my Russian associates that Navalny lacked leadership qualities, but he showed great charisma, used strong words, knew how to attract people. He said: Navalny is a populist, but he was a bad politician and leader.

You can't say what politician and leader he would be because he never had a chance to run innthe elections. He wasn't even allowed to register his party. The same happened to other Putin's opponents who weren't allowed to compete with him. In democracy if some leader proves himself to be incompetent, he's kicked out of office. People don't have to vote for him in the next elections. The power goes to one of his opponents.

And who's going to remove Putin? Do people in Russia have an opportunity to really choose their leader? Do they have free press? Is opposition allowed to function without obstacles? No.

I don't see any signs of democracy emerging in Russia now. It's going down the route of primitive and brutal dictatorship. No comparison here with Germany, which is a true democratic country in spite of all of its flaws.