Addressing the issue of constrained morality as Christians - are we truly good people?

a reply to: randomuser2034


The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

There is an overall precedent, regarding the complete nature of God, that is generally ignored

originally posted by: Gouldielockstitch

originally posted by: randomuser2034]

Jehovah was talking of his power and ability to bring about the accomplishment of his will ...

So, A jealous God is talking about his power, and also abilities?

Please do state the tone of this?

Does Jehovah have a preferred humor style?

Also, let us know if you are tone deaf or not.

Sum of us would like to know if this is only considered ego and pride when in a flesh form.

If it is, should none of us list abilities when looking for jobs?

Being jealous isn't always wrong. For example, is it wrong for a woman to be protective of her marriage, if another woman is giving undo attention to her husband? Wouldn't her jealousy move her to protect her cherished relationship with her man?

Jehovah is the true God. False gods cannot give you life. Jehovah is jealous for his name, because he is the only true God. And he has high standards of morality. Jesus said we must be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect. He cannot have relations or deal with humans directly because we are in a fallen state of sin. Thus he uses the mediator Jesus Christ as his word. And Jehovah will sanctify his name.

It is true there is nothing that is impossible with God, but he cannot lie. He holds himself to his own standards of right and wrong. He will not break his word or his oath. And so the ransom he paid he both provided and furnished it to himself to uphold his own standards of righteousness. If he holds himself to his own standards of right and purity, then he requires that also of us.

You can chose to ignore it and you can chose to not serve Jehovah God. But you will cease to exist. And then you are no more. But those who do not worship false gods, but the true God, who is a God of happiness and peace, will receive eternal life. God is a humble God. As David recognized when Jehovah anointed David over his people, the nation of Israel:

"You give me your shield of salvation,
Your right hand supports me,
And your humility makes me great."
-Psalm 18:35.

God's sayings are pure standing forever. As the Psalmist stated:

"The law of Jehovah is perfect, restoring strength.
The reminder of Jehovah is trustworthy, making the inexperienced one wise.
The orders from Jehovah are righteous, causing the heart to rejoice;
The commandment of Jehovah is clean, making the eyes shine.
The fear of Jehovah is pure, lasting forever.
The judgments of Jehovah are true, altogether righteous.
They are more desirable than gold,
Than much fine gold,
And sweeter than honey, the honey that drips from the combs.
By them your servant has been warned;
In keeping them, there is a large reward."
-Psalm 19:7-11.

originally posted by: randomuser2034

You sure?

5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Jehovah was talking of his power and ability to bring about the accomplishment of his will with regards his people Israel. He was going to give them peace, while bringing calamity upon the Babylonians. He wasn't stating that he was the originator or creator of evil in general in this text.

Here's some more of that passage:
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the Lord have created it.

9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?

11 Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

Seems more like God is saying exactly what God is saying, about being the creator of the world, yes, this very world you live in, right now, with things in it that humans judge as good and evil. Seems a lot less likely that what God actually means, is about Babylon.

Since, ya know, He could have just avoided the potential confusion and said that.

a reply to: HKMarrow

Isaiah 45 is talking of Jehovah's anointing Cyrus (whom he called by name 200 years before Cyrus was even born) to release God's people that were in captivity in Babylon to return to their homeland and rebuild the temple to Jehovah in Jerusalem.

There is nothing impure with God. He is too pure to look on evil. And everything is perfect and good in his creation. He did not create evil. The defect of evil comes from inside the person who from their own free will decides sin.

On this, I also have another question of you. When Peter denied Jesus, did he have free will to decide NOT to deny him, making Jesus a liar? Or, do you suppose Peter denied Jesus of obedience to God, as failing to deny him would be a sin at that point?

There is nothing impure with God. He is too pure to look on evil. And everything is perfect and good in his creation. He did not create evil. The defect of evil comes from inside the person who from their own free will decides sin.

On this, I also have another question of you. When Peter denied Jesus, did he have free will to decide NOT to deny him, making Jesus a liar? Or, do you suppose Peter denied Jesus of obedience to God, as failing to deny him would be a sin at that point?

Of course Peter acted of his own freewill. He actually was showing a measure of boldness. For when the guard of the Sanhedrin took Jesus prisoner only Peter and John followed behind, everyone else scattered. And Peter was as bold as to enter into the courtyard of the High Priest Caiaphas. But when a woman recognized him, out of weakness Peter denied knowing Jesus, out of fear of man. But he quickly repented and ran off and wept bitterly over his weakness.

Jesus knew Peter's love of him, and he also knew of his weaknesses. Jesus forgave Peter because he knew Peter's intentions were good at heart, and as Jesus said, "the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." This should give you heart, and encourage you. Jesus also sees the good in your heart. Even when you do wrong, he knows the true intentions of the heart.

originally posted by: randomuser2034
a reply to: HKMarrow

Isaiah 45 is talking of Jehovah's anointing Cyrus (whom he called by name 200 years before Cyrus was even born) to release God's people that were in captivity in Babylon to return to their homeland and rebuild the temple to Jehovah in Jerusalem.

Hmmmm... that's like saying that a sports announcer is talking about football, when he starts talking about what he did while on vacation. Sure, football is going on, but he's talking about something else during the game.

Kinda like here. Sure, the captivity and all that was going on. But God's talking about being God here.

originally posted by: randomuser2034

There is nothing impure with God. He is too pure to look on evil. And everything is perfect and good in his creation. He did not create evil. The defect of evil comes from inside the person who from their own free will decides sin.

On this, I also have another question of you. When Peter denied Jesus, did he have free will to decide NOT to deny him, making Jesus a liar? Or, do you suppose Peter denied Jesus of obedience to God, as failing to deny him would be a sin at that point?

Of course Peter acted of his own freewill. He actually was showing a measure of boldness. For when the guard of the Sanhedrin took Jesus prisoner only Peter and John followed behind, everyone else scattered. And Peter was as bold as to enter into the courtyard of the High Priest Caiaphas. But when a woman recognized him, out of weakness Peter denied knowing Jesus, out of fear of man. But he quickly repented and ran off and wept bitterly over his weakness.

Jesus knew Peter's love of him, and he also knew of his weaknesses. Jesus forgave Peter because he knew Peter's intentions were good at heart, and as Jesus said, "the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." This should give you heart, and encourage you. Jesus also sees the good in your heart. Even when you do wrong, he knows the true intentions of the heart.

Your ignoring the mechanics of the question. But you are insinuating, that Peter could have potentially made Jesus into a liar. So, I guess I'll take that as your answer...

Hmmmm... that's like saying that a sports announcer is talking about football, when he starts talking about what he did while on vacation. Sure, football is going on, but he's talking about something else during the game.

Kinda like here. Sure, the captivity and all that was going on. But God's talking about being God here.

True, but in the context of his ability to release his people from Babylon.

You see this was yet future. Not like your analogy. Jehovah sent Isaiah to his people to chastise them and let them know he was going to bring upon them the curse he promised would befall them in Leviticus 26 if they did not keep the Covenant. The Babylonians hadn't even taken the Jews into captivity at that time. That was not for over another 120 years from when Isaiah told the nation of Israel this.

So Jehovah's message through Isaiah although was a condemnatory one, was also one of comfort to those Jews whom remained faithful to him. Jehovah would keep his covenant. And as he is God he has the power to carry out his word. Those who heard Isaiah's prophecy foretold hundreds of years previous could take heart and be sure that Jehovah would act to carry out his word with respect them, and free them from captivity.

originally posted by: HKMarrow

originally posted by: randomuser2034

There is nothing impure with God. He is too pure to look on evil. And everything is perfect and good in his creation. He did not create evil. The defect of evil comes from inside the person who from their own free will decides sin.

On this, I also have another question of you. When Peter denied Jesus, did he have free will to decide NOT to deny him, making Jesus a liar? Or, do you suppose Peter denied Jesus of obedience to God, as failing to deny him would be a sin at that point?

Of course Peter acted of his own freewill. He actually was showing a measure of boldness. For when the guard of the Sanhedrin took Jesus prisoner only Peter and John followed behind, everyone else scattered. And Peter was as bold as to enter into the courtyard of the High Priest Caiaphas. But when a woman recognized him, out of weakness Peter denied knowing Jesus, out of fear of man. But he quickly repented and ran off and wept bitterly over his weakness.

Jesus knew Peter's love of him, and he also knew of his weaknesses. Jesus forgave Peter because he knew Peter's intentions were good at heart, and as Jesus said, "the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." This should give you heart, and encourage you. Jesus also sees the good in your heart. Even when you do wrong, he knows the true intentions of the heart.

Your ignoring the mechanics of the question. But you are insinuating, that Peter could have potentially made Jesus into a liar. So, I guess I'll take that as your answer...

I didn't ignore the question. You are reading into it what you want, not what was stated. As you are doing with God's word as well.

a reply to: randomuser2034

The context you are wishing to limit this to, is the curses of the Covenant. However, if God is the same, without change, then the same God that created that situation, also created the rest of the world, and it's situations... just like he says here. In this passage.

originally posted by: randomuser2034

originally posted by: HKMarrow

originally posted by: randomuser2034

There is nothing impure with God. He is too pure to look on evil. And everything is perfect and good in his creation. He did not create evil. The defect of evil comes from inside the person
who from their own free will decides sin.

On this, I also have another question of you. When Peter denied Jesus, did he have free will to decide NOT to deny him, making Jesus a liar? Or, do you suppose Peter denied Jesus of obedience to God, as failing to deny him would be a sin at that point?

Of course Peter acted of his own freewill. He actually was showing a measure of boldness. For when the guard of the Sanhedrin took Jesus prisoner only Peter and John followed behind, everyone else scattered. And Peter was as bold as to enter into the courtyard of the High Priest Caiaphas. But when a woman recognized him, out of weakness Peter denied knowing Jesus, out of fear of man. But he quickly repented and ran off and wept bitterly over his weakness.

Jesus knew Peter's love of him, and he also knew of his weaknesses. Jesus forgave Peter because he knew Peter's intentions were good at heart, and as Jesus said, "the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." This should give you heart, and encourage you. Jesus also sees the good in your heart. Even when you do wrong, he knows the true intentions of the heart.

Your ignoring the mechanics of the question. But you are insinuating, that Peter could have potentially made Jesus into a liar. So, I guess I'll take that as your answer...

I didn't ignore the question. You are reading into it what you want, not what was stated. As you are doing with God's word as well.

Well... let's make it simpler then. Could Peter have NOT denied Jesus, before the cock crowed? Yes, or no?

originally posted by: HKMarrow

There is nothing impure with God. He is too pure to look on evil. And everything is perfect and good in his creation. He did not create evil. The defect of evil comes from inside the person who from their own free will decides sin.

On this, I also have another question of you. When Peter denied Jesus, did he have free will to decide NOT to deny him, making Jesus a liar? Or, do you suppose Peter denied Jesus of obedience to God, as failing to deny him would be a sin at that point?

Great question. Lying is sinful, betraying your friend is sinful, making friends with someone you know for a fact is going to betray you is sinful just like putting your hand on a hot stove and blaming the stove is sinful. I prefer the term stupid but we can use your vernacular.

If Peter is guilty, then so is Jesus because he said "you will be a jerk and I'm going to make you go be that jerk". He didn't say "please don't" or "hey, avoid this particular market and these guards because they are going to accost you" he had specific knowledge and concealed it from someone who might have changed his mind if Jesus wasn't constantly being cryptic, like he wanted Peter to carry that guilt.

Telling half the truth, but only the most damaging half, is manipulative and gross. As a casual plebeian of no particular expertise, that's my take.

The context you are wishing to limit this to, is the curses of the Covenant. However, if God is the same, without change, then the same God that created that situation, also created the rest of the world, and it's situations... just like he says here. In this passage.

Agreed that God subjected the world to futility, that is sin and death, but he did so on the basis of hope as Paul stated:

"For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope  that the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God."-Romans 8:2-21.

Jehovah did not have to put up with sin when it was introduced into the world by Satan the Devil. But he did. So everything from that time onward has been allowed by Jehovah, and Jehovah has been fulfilling his purpose with respects humankind. While he has allowed evil, subjecting humankind to futility, that is sin and death, he did so based on the hope of the promised offspring as foretold in Genesis 3:15, and of which every book of the Bible, and all of Jehovah's dealings therein has been dealing with.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: HKMarrow

There is nothing impure with God. He is too pure to look on evil. And everything is perfect and good in his creation. He did not create evil. The defect of evil comes from inside the person who from their own free will decides sin.

On this, I also have another question of you. When Peter denied Jesus, did he have free will to decide NOT to deny him, making Jesus a liar? Or, do you suppose Peter denied Jesus of obedience to God, as failing to deny him would be a sin at that point?

Great question. Lying is sinful, betraying your friend is sinful, making friends with someone you know for a fact is going to betray you is sinful just like putting your hand on a hot stove and blaming the stove is sinful. I prefer the term stupid but we can use your vernacular.

If Peter is guilty, then so is Jesus because he said "you will be a jerk and I'm going to make you go be that jerk".

He didn't say "please don't" or "hey, avoid this particular market and these guards because they are going to accost you" he had specific knowledge and concealed it from someone who might have changed his mind if Jesus wasn't constantly being cryptic, like he wanted Peter to carry that guilt.

As a casual plebeian of no particular expertise, that's my take.



Your take is pretty well said... clearly the morality of Jesus, would have to be a bit different then we would expect of one of our every day friends. We might expect an enemy to let us walk into such a situation, or a person whose morals are questionable, at least, from a human perspective...

a reply to: TzarChasm

Jesus knew Peter's heart was good. In fact on the very night he was betrayed he asked Peter, James, and John to pray with him, and yet they kept falling asleep. But instead of becoming disheartened with them he stated:

"He returned to the disciples and found them sleeping, and he said to Peter: “Could you not so much as keep on the watch for one hour with me? Keep on the watch and pray continually, so that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit, of course, is eager, but the flesh is weak.”-Matthew 26:40-41.

So Jesus even warned them to pray so that they not fall into temptation. Perhaps if they had obeyed Jesus Peter would not have denied knowing him. But just because Jesus saw this weakness in the man, doesn't mean that he overlooked the good in him.

After being resurrected and appearing to Peter Jesus asked Peter three times if he loved Jesus. And Peter said yes, you know all things, you know I love you. And he became vexxed perhaps realizing the weakness he revealed when he in a moment of weakness denied knowing Jesus. But Jesus showed he had forgiven Peter when he replied: "Feed my little sheep."

Jesus knew Peter was going to do what he did. It was already foretold in scripture that all his followers would scatter, but that doesn't mean he didn't warn them, and even tell them to pray that it wouldn't happen.

originally posted by: randomuser2034

The context you are wishing to limit this to, is the curses of the Covenant. However, if God is the same, without change, then the same God that created that situation, also created the rest of the world, and it's situations... just like he says here. In this passage.

Agreed that God subjected the world to futility, that is sin and death, but he did so on the basis of hope as Paul stated:

"For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope  that the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God."-Romans 8:2-21.

Jehovah did not have to put up with sin when it was introduced into the world by Satan the Devil. But he did. So everything from that time onward has been allowed by Jehovah, and Jehovah has been fulfilling his purpose with respects humankind. While he has allowed evil, subjecting humankind to futility, that is sin and death, he did so based on the hope of the promised offspring as foretold in Genesis 3:15, and of which every book of the Bible, and all of Jehovah's dealings therein has been dealing with.

Indeed, now we are getting to the full picture...

a reply to: randomuser2034

If Jesus had told him the whole truth, he might have changed his mind. That's what being honest and transparent with your friends usually does.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: randomuser2034

If Jesus had told him the whole truth, he might have changed his mind. That's what being honest and transparent with your friends usually does.

Jesus did tell him the whole truth, that is when Peter quite boldly stated that while everyone else would deny Jesus (in front of all of them as well) that he never would:

"Then Jesus said to them: “All of you will be stumbled in connection with me on this night, for it is written: ‘I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered about.’ But after I have been raised up, I will go ahead of you into Galʹi·lee.” But Peter, in response, said to him: “Although all the others are stumbled in connection with you, I will never be stumbled!” Jesus said to him: “Truly I say to you, on this night, before a rooster crows, you will disown me three times.” Peter said to him: “Even if I should have to die with you, I will by no means disown you.” All the other disciples also said the same thing."-Matthew 26:31-35.

originally posted by: randomuser2034
a reply to: TzarChasm

Jesus knew Peter's heart was good. In fact on the very night he was betrayed he asked Peter, James, and John to pray with him, and yet they kept falling asleep. But instead of becoming disheartened with them he stated:

"He returned to the disciples and found them sleeping, and he said to Peter: “Could you not so much as keep on the watch for one hour with me? Keep on the watch and pray continually, so that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit, of course, is eager, but the flesh is weak.”-Matthew 26:40-41.

So Jesus even warned them to pray so that they not fall into temptation. Perhaps if they had obeyed Jesus Peter would not have denied knowing him. But just because Jesus saw this weakness in the man, doesn't mean that he overlooked the good in him.

After being resurrected and appearing to Peter Jesus asked Peter three times if he loved Jesus. And Peter said yes, you know all things, you know I love you. And he became vexxed perhaps realizing the weakness he revealed when he in a moment of weakness denied knowing Jesus. But Jesus showed he had forgiven Peter when he replied: "Feed my little sheep."

Jesus knew Peter was going to do what he did. It was already foretold in scripture that all his followers would scatter, but that doesn't mean he didn't warn them, and even tell them to pray that it wouldn't happen.

Jesus knew that Peter was chosen, and knew what would become of Peter, before Peter knew any of this. So, Peter couldn't have done otherwise, because there was no otherwise for him to do, if God created him to be the Peter that we read about.